Arcane Cascade for Starlit Span

Hi yall,

I understand not a lot of people have access to the PDF yet, but I was wondering if I'm just missing something - the extra damage from Arcane Cascade Stance doesn't seem to apply to the ranged strikes made if you're Starlit Span.

Have I overlooked something, or is it an oversight?

Doesn't appear to be an oversight as it falls in line with ranged weapon damage bonuses so far. The only reliable way to get self-buffing damage with ranged weapons appear to be through non-Volley Point Blank Shot and composite bows (and thrown/propulsive weapons, of course).

There have been plenty of threads on the efficacy of bows in PF2, but as someone who enjoys them, I leave it with: Yes, 99% sure this was intended and the starlit magus ends up with enough powerful tricks to make it quite the non-issue.

Doesn't appear to be an oversight as it falls in line with ranged weapon damage bonuses so far. The only reliable way to get self-buffing damage with ranged weapons appear to be through non-Volley Point Blank Shot and composite bows (and thrown/propulsive weapons, of course).

There have been plenty of threads on the efficacy of bows in PF2, but as someone who enjoys them, I leave it with: Yes, 99% sure this was intended and the starlit magus ends up with enough powerful tricks to make it quite the non-issue.

It does seem odd that one of the classes signature features doesn’t really interact with ranged magus at all. And while other classes don’t get damage to their bows, they do get various damage boosters (+2 for fighter, precision damage for ranger, flurry, hunted shot, etc)

Ruzza wrote:

Doesn't appear to be an oversight as it falls in line with ranged weapon damage bonuses so far. The only reliable way to get self-buffing damage with ranged weapons appear to be through non-Volley Point Blank Shot and composite bows (and thrown/propulsive weapons, of course).

There have been plenty of threads on the efficacy of bows in PF2, but as someone who enjoys them, I leave it with: Yes, 99% sure this was intended and the starlit magus ends up with enough powerful tricks to make it quite the non-issue.

It does seem odd that one of the classes signature features doesn’t really interact with ranged magus at all. And while other classes don’t get damage to their bows, they do get various damage boosters (+2 for fighter, precision damage for ranger, flurry, hunted shot, etc)

Arcane Cascade does interact with starlit span through feats, and Spellstrike is really a huge bonus damage-wise. Getting the damage of a spell along with the accuracy of your shots turns out to be quite wonderful. Currently running a starlit span magus that I recently converted over from playtest and the damage has been mind-blowing. I feel that Arcane Cascade on top of it would be an extra layer of power on top of "I don't need to spend actions Striding into range."

I mean but as it stands pre level 4 you have no need for arcane cascade at all the feat is not bad though but only useful if you have enemies who hide themselves

I agree it is a little odd that Starlit Span doesn't use that class feature.

But, ranged magus is by far the strongest of the hybrid studies, so they probably didn't want to buff it more. If anything they need to buff melee magus.

I agree it is a little odd that Starlit Span doesn't use that class feature.

But, ranged magus is by far the strongest of the hybrid studies, so they probably didn't want to buff it more. If anything they need to buff melee magus.

Yes (w/ all due apologies to Twisting Tree Magi w/ excellent staves).

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Doesn't appear to be an oversight as it falls in line with ranged weapon damage bonuses so far. The only reliable way to get self-buffing damage with ranged weapons appear to be through non-Volley Point Blank Shot and composite bows (and thrown/propulsive weapons, of course).

There have been plenty of threads on the efficacy of bows in PF2, but as someone who enjoys them, I leave it with: Yes, 99% sure this was intended and the starlit magus ends up with enough powerful tricks to make it quite the non-issue.

I can agree that this isn't an oversight (though to me, it is, as I didn't realize the damage boost was for melee strikes only), but as someone who plays a Starlit Span Magus right now, damage isn't that great. Having played at 3rd level, your highest damaging spell, bar none, is the Telekinetic Projectile cantrip with a bow shot, and if you want to maintain competent saves across the board, you're capping your damage out at 3D6+2, with having to waste an action either recharging or burning a focus point to strike again at a -5 penalty. If you need to move or do something else besides your 3 action schtick, you're losing out compared to everyone else, and if you're burning spell slots, chances are they will do less damage, or aren't very reliable to use as a consistent means to gauge damage. My other party members, who can deal 1D8+6 at reach twice with a single action, another with crazy mobility and doing 1D8+4 twice with a chance to Slow an enemy, and a Rogue doing 2D6+4 damage with a single action on optimal circumstances, you're getting hosed by simply having the cover of slightly more than 30 feet of range on average to protect you from multiple attacks.

Spending an action to do more damage overall with each non-Spellstrike shot (and potentially triggering weaknesses) provides a lot of damage help at the early levels (I don't get a Strength bonus to damage with a Bow), while being niche at the mid to high levels, is a healthy. At best, we could argue that it should be 1/2/3 for ranged, and 2/4/6 for melee, and that's fine; melee should do more damage to compensate being at a risky position to do so. But I don't particularly agree that a core class feature should be a dead feature depending on which build path you take, that's just poor design. And having to take a 10th level feat just to provide a niche "cleave" benefit to my shots that follows dead feature mechanics is even worse design, because now I need to keep track of a feature I never needed to before. Plus, throwing builds are suffering from this by proxy, even though those aren't really viable to begin with.

Honestly, a Bow Fighter does more damage than a Starlit Span Magus, and they don't need to jump through hoops or learn (relatively) complex mechanics and playstyles to do so, and their feats can let them just sit there and shoot arrows without having to worry about enemies bashing their face in. And they can move around more. And they can target more enemies than you. And they don't need to worry about expending limited resources. The list goes on. Have I had my one or two big hits before? Yes. Were they cool? Yes. But I'd rather not have to rely on good dice RNG to feel great about my character's effectiveness or overall parity with the group. I should feel good about simply being able to hit my enemy for average damage, and not feel robbed of my action effectiveness from an average roll with bad damage dice being the sole dictator of my effectiveness.

Ruzza wrote:

Doesn't appear to be an oversight as it falls in line with ranged weapon damage bonuses so far. The only reliable way to get self-buffing damage with ranged weapons appear to be through non-Volley Point Blank Shot and composite bows (and thrown/propulsive weapons, of course).

There have been plenty of threads on the efficacy of bows in PF2, but as someone who enjoys them, I leave it with: Yes, 99% sure this was intended and the starlit magus ends up with enough powerful tricks to make it quite the non-issue.

I can agree that this isn't an oversight (though to me, it is, as I didn't realize the damage boost was for melee strikes only), but as someone who plays a Starlit Span Magus right now, damage isn't that great. Having played at 3rd level, your highest damaging spell, bar none, is the Telekinetic Projectile cantrip with a bow shot, and if you want to maintain competent saves across the board, you're capping your damage out at 3D6+2, with having to waste an action either recharging or burning a focus point to strike again at a -5 penalty. If you need to move or do something else besides your 3 action schtick, you're losing out compared to everyone else, and if you're burning spell slots, chances are they will do less damage, or aren't very reliable to use as a consistent means to gauge damage. My other party members, who can deal 1D8+6 at reach twice with a single action, another with crazy mobility and doing 1D8+4 twice with a chance to Slow an enemy, and a Rogue doing 2D6+4 damage with a single action on optimal circumstances, you're getting hosed by simply having the cover of slightly more than 30 feet of range on average to protect you from multiple attacks.

Spending an action to do more damage overall with each non-Spellstrike shot (and potentially triggering weaknesses) provides a lot of damage help at the early levels (I don't get a Strength bonus to damage with a Bow), while being niche at the mid to high levels, is a healthy. At best, we could argue that it should...

Magus is undertuned, I think everyone agrees on that. If it makes you feel better melee magus is much worse off.

Starlight can spike effectively with a spell however, or honestly getting far more value out of a wall or slow or something.

If you need to move or do something else besides your 3 action schtick, you're losing out compared to everyone else

I mean, that's what makes Starlit so nice compared to other Magi disciplines. There's a lot less pressure to move when you have 60 feet of range instead of 5 or 10.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

If you need to move or do something else besides your 3 action schtick, you're losing out compared to everyone else

I mean, that's what makes Starlit so nice compared to other Magi disciplines. There's a lot less pressure to move when you have 60 feet of range instead of 5 or 10.

Depends. A "sweet spot" of range would be in the 35-40 range, depending on enemy reach, keeping them within initial range increment while forcing them to spend 2 actions to get to you and getting maybe 1 attack, assuming they decide to go after you. Varying from that is still within the 5 or 10 foot range zone, where being too close means they spend more actions beating on you, and being too far away means you can't Spellstrike if they decide to move away (due to needing to get in range or having to recharge the spell).

It's certainly lessened some, but it's still there. Really, if Spellstrike didn't provoke AoO, I'd argue that Starlit Span isn't worth the damage loss; the fact you can still use Spellstrike without provoking 95% of the time is the only saving grace it has.

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Not zero benefit. Arcane Cascade doesn't benefit Starlit Span Maguses when they make ranged Spellstrikes, but it does help them when they make melee Spellstrikes. I plan to eventually build one as a switch hitter like my old PF1 Myrmidarch Magus so I'll be getting some use out of Arcane Cascade.

Squiggit wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

If you need to move or do something else besides your 3 action schtick, you're losing out compared to everyone else

I mean, that's what makes Starlit so nice compared to other Magi disciplines. There's a lot less pressure to move when you have 60 feet of range instead of 5 or 10.

Depends. A "sweet spot" of range would be in the 35-40 range, depending on enemy reach, keeping them within initial range increment while forcing them to spend 2 actions to get to you and getting maybe 1 attack, assuming they decide to go after you. Varying from that is still within the 5 or 10 foot range zone, where being too close means they spend more actions beating on you, and being too far away means you can't Spellstrike if they decide to move away (due to needing to get in range or having to recharge the spell).

It's certainly lessened some, but it's still there. Really, if Spellstrike didn't provoke AoO, I'd argue that Starlit Span isn't worth the damage loss; the fact you can still use Spellstrike without provoking 95% of the time is the only saving grace it has.

In practice I am not sure how much of a damage loss it actually is. Starlit span can spam spellstrike unlike the melee magi, and that is so much damage that the damage die size of the weapon is less significant than usual.

Squiggit wrote:

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Not zero benefit. Arcane Cascade doesn't benefit Starlit Span Maguses when they make ranged Spellstrikes, but it does help them when they make melee Spellstrikes. I plan to eventually build one as a switch hitter like my old PF1 Myrmidarch Magus so I'll be getting some use out of Arcane Cascade.

Okay yeah sure, if you're a Starlit Span magus that for some reason is making melee attacks, you can use Arcane Cascade... Of course, if you're doing that, then it's your hybrid study that's not doing anything at all.

Gisher wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Not zero benefit. Arcane Cascade doesn't benefit Starlit Span Maguses when they make ranged Spellstrikes, but it does help them when they make melee Spellstrikes. I plan to eventually build one as a switch hitter like my old PF1 Myrmidarch Magus so I'll be getting some use out of Arcane Cascade.

Okay yeah sure, if you're a Starlit Span magus that for some reason is making melee attacks, you can use Arcane Cascade... Of course, if you're doing that, then it's your hybrid study that's not doing anything at all.

Since switch hitters are making both melee and ranged attacks, both Arcane Cascade and Starlit Span are doing things. Just not on the same attacks.

Switch hitting pretty much always requires sacrificing the benefits of specialization for the benefits of versatility. A switch hitting Starlit Span Magus gives up some of the melee power that other hybrid studies grant in exchange for good ranged options. For those of us who like switch hitting, I think it's a good balance.

In practice I am not sure how much of a damage loss it actually is. Starlit span can spam spellstrike unlike the melee magi, and that is so much damage that the damage die size of the weapon is less significant than usual.

Yeah, the damage output of the Starlight Span magus feels fine (in PF2 ranged characters are not supposed to be top of the heap DPR), it's mostly that it feels weird to have Arcane Cascade as a kind of vestigial feature if you don't take the feats that tie into it (which appear to work fine with Starlit Span).

Honestly, Arcane Cascade is bad enough that you can allow it on a Starlit Span Magus without issue. If you replace a second attack with Arcane Cascade, you'll need between 3 and 5 rounds (more at high levels) to get any net gain out of it. Even if you replace a third attack with it you'll need between 2 and 3 rounds to get a gain. So, it's clearly not worth using outside weakness exploitation.

Overall, Arcane Cascade is really bad. A properly played Magus use it from time to time, but never in their main routine.

Starlit Span is quite versatile because it gives a nice sinergy in terms of action management, withouth the need of exploiting the system through other mechanics meant to give extra movement ( companions, reactions, etc... ).

Being able to trade, depends the situation, the arcane cascade damage and being able to ranged spellstrike in exchange is imo already excellent.

A Magus using a finesse weapon with the thrown trait could could make a good use of the starlit span too.

Just pointing out that Archer dedication and Point Blank Shot (4) provide critical specialization for the bow and a static damage boost comparable to what you would have gotten from Arcane Cascade if you choose to use a bow without volley (e.g. composite short bow)... all with the added benefit of not needing to cast a spell to get into the stance.

Squiggit wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Not zero benefit. Arcane Cascade doesn't benefit Starlit Span Maguses when they make ranged Spellstrikes, but it does help them when they make melee Spellstrikes. I plan to eventually build one as a switch hitter like my old PF1 Myrmidarch Magus so I'll be getting some use out of Arcane Cascade.

Okay yeah sure, if you're a Starlit Span magus that for some reason is making melee attacks, you can use Arcane Cascade... Of course, if you're doing that, then it's your hybrid study that's not doing anything at all.

Since switch hitters are making both melee and ranged attacks, both Arcane Cascade and Starlit Span are doing things. Just not on the same attacks.

Switch hitting pretty much always requires sacrificing the benefits of specialization for the benefits of versatility. A switch hitting Starlit Span Magus gives up some of the melee power that other hybrid studies grant in exchange for good ranged options. For those of us who like switch hitting, I think it's a good balance.

How were you planning on Switch-Hitting? Thrown weapons, combination firearms, or a firearm/combo with a reinforced stock/bayonet? Or some other option that I haven't thought of?

Gisher wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I think I can agree on both points. The action economy benefits alone of ranged spellstrike are amazing for a class as action economy starved as the Magus. STarlit is amazing

But at the same time it definitely does feel weird that one of your core class features provides zero benefit unless you take a specific feat.

Not zero benefit. Arcane Cascade doesn't benefit Starlit Span Maguses when they make ranged Spellstrikes, but it does help them when they make melee Spellstrikes. I plan to eventually build one as a switch hitter like my old PF1 Myrmidarch Magus so I'll be getting some use out of Arcane Cascade.

Okay yeah sure, if you're a Starlit Span magus that for some reason is making melee attacks, you can use Arcane Cascade... Of course, if you're doing that, then it's your hybrid study that's not doing anything at all.

Since switch hitters are making both melee and ranged attacks, both Arcane Cascade and Starlit Span are doing things. Just not on the same attacks.

Switch hitting pretty much always requires sacrificing the benefits of specialization for the benefits of versatility. A switch hitting Starlit Span Magus gives up some of the melee power that other hybrid studies grant in exchange for good ranged options. For those of us who like switch hitting, I think it's a good balance.

How were you planning on Switch-Hitting? Thrown weapons, combination firearms, or a firearm/combo with a reinforced stock/bayonet? Or some other option that I haven't thought of?

A repeating hand crossbow + rapier would make an interesting starlit span. Or just use arcane fists with a shortbow

Now that I think about it, the best switch hitting magus might actually be a laughing shadow with arcane fists and Eldridge Archer archetype.

How were you planning on Switch-Hitting? Thrown weapons, combination firearms, or a firearm/combo with a reinforced stock/bayonet? Or some other option that I haven't thought of?

I'm not sure. My Myrmidarch Magus had an Elvish theme with bow and Elven thornblade. This time I'm considering going with a more Roman theme of shortsword and javelin. If I do, I'll probably use blazons of shared power to reduce rune costs.

At the moment, I'm so happy building Investigators it'll probably be a while before I really work on a Magus.

Is the math really so tight that 1 extra damage is going to bust Starlit Span magi wide open? It's frustrating to see a subclass completely fail to interact with a core class ability.

Is the math really so tight that 1 extra damage is going to bust Starlit Span magi wide open? It's frustrating to see a subclass completely fail to interact with a core class ability.

Untrue. Starlit span expands the ways you can use Spellstrike. It interacts with Arcane Cascade, just not as much as the other studies. As in it does not have a specific "while you are in Arcane Cascade stance" thing. That is just part of the whole study package.

Or would it feel better if its ability to spellstrike using ranged attacks was only active while you are in Arcane Cascade stance ?

Or would it feel better if its ability to spellstrike using ranged attacks was only active while you are in Arcane Cascade stance ?

I think this sums up the whole discussion.

The issue I see is giving for granted a huge deal like ranged spellstrike for 2 actions, and because so focusing on arcane cascade damage not applied on ranged strikes.

Being able to alternate between Bow & magus fists ( to mention the classic build ) is beyond versatile.

Is the math really so tight that 1 extra damage is going to bust Starlit Span magi wide open? It's frustrating to see a subclass completely fail to interact with a core class ability.

Short answer: No, it doesn't break the math, but that doesn't mean it should be added.

Long answer: No, it doesn't break the math, but the goal isn't to make sure things don't break the game. The goal is to make things balanced around certain design philosophies. The answer to "would giving +1 damage to X break it?" should in theory always be "no" (unless it's an ability that's expected to trigger several times a turn for free at low levels), because if it did break something then it would already be pretty messed up from a balance perspective in the first place. This, however, doesn't mean that the +1 damage should be added just because it feels like the abilities should interact.

How were you planning on Switch-Hitting? Thrown weapons, combination firearms, or a firearm/combo with a reinforced stock/bayonet? Or some other option that I haven't thought of?

I do it with a monk multiclass, and at level 10 took Flurry of Blows. For an agile+finesse weapon you're not going to do much better than d6 damage die anyway.

A thrown/returning weapon might work quite well too, to not need two sets of fundamental runes.

Ventnor wrote:

How were you planning on Switch-Hitting? Thrown weapons, combination firearms, or a firearm/combo with a reinforced stock/bayonet? Or some other option that I haven't thought of?

I do it with a monk multiclass, and at level 10 took Flurry of Blows. For an agile+finesse weapon you're not going to do much better than d6 damage die anyway.

To help people explore possibilities, I just whipped up a list of Finesse Options. Many of them are also agile, and a few are thrown. I bolded the thrown trait to help pick the thrown weapons out.

A thrown/returning weapon might work quite well too, to not need two sets of fundamental runes.

The Blazons of Shared Power let you share runes between some melee and ranged weapon pairings as well. I've been thinking of building an Investigator who uses a gauntlet and chakram combo. A rapier and repeating hand crossbow combo seems fun for a Starlit Span Magus.

This, however, doesn't mean that the +1 damage should be added just because it feels like the abilities should interact.

I mean I think it's not just that. Mechanically it's not the end of the world either way, but it makes the class feel underdesigned or a little bit half baked when one of its subclasses is essentially left with a primary class feature that becomes mostly vestigial because it doesn't interact with your main mode of combat*.

It reminds me a bit of some of the sketchier archeytpes in 1e that would just leave you with class features that don't work because they're partialy replaced by something else and you'd end up with huge swaths of dead levels as a result.

From a balance perspective it might not be a big deal, but it looks kind of shoddy.

*to pre-empt the nitpicking: yes if you pick a ranged magus and then make lots of melee attacks for some reason the ability works-ish fine whatever sure.

Errata that makes Arcane Cascade work with Starlit Span would not be totally out of bounds. We're talking about +3 damage once per round at 20th level here.

It does feel weird that it doesn't work with starlit span.

I guess they decided it was not needed.

I guess they decided it was not needed.

They could have easily added something just for starlight so that it didn't feel useless for them. Like 'While you're in the stance, your range increment increases by +5', +10' if you have weapon specialization and +15' if you have greater weapon specialization.' Nothing earthshattering but it'd give it some use beyond 'well you can punch someone and do more damage'...

Errata that makes Arcane Cascade work with Starlit Span would not be totally out of bounds. We're talking about +3 damage once per round at 20th level here.

There is no once-per-round damage limitation on Arcane Cascade. Any melee strike is imbued with the extra damage. Even at +1 damage (typed by your spell) can be a game changer when interacting with a creature's weaknesses.

I think this has far more potential than described. It may be the intent to add an element of risk in these situations rather than sniping a creature's weakness multiple times a round from afar after using one spell of the right type.

I mean the big appeal of Starlight Span is that you can Spellstrike pretty much every round. I don't see "making the second attack" as more viable than "recharging your spellstrike" even if arcane cascade applied to your ranged attacks.

*to pre-empt the nitpicking: yes if you pick a ranged magus and then make lots of melee attacks for some reason the ability works-ish fine whatever sure.

I wasn't trying to nit-pick. I was just trying to point out that the glass was only half-empty, not entirely empty. But I am sorry for derailing the thread.

The Raven Black wrote:

I guess they decided it was not needed.

They could have easily added something just for starlight so that it didn't feel useless for them. Like 'While you're in the stance, your range increment increases by +5', +10' if you have weapon specialization and +15' if you have greater weapon specialization.' Nothing earthshattering but it'd give it some use beyond 'well you can punch someone and do more damage'...

IIRC Starlit Span is already considered the best study because of its ranged Spellstrikes. Anything that makes its ranged attacks even better just pushes it further above the other studies.

What maybe they should have done is "While you're in the stance, you can spellstrike at range", rather than it being always on.

graystone wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I guess they decided it was not needed.

They could have easily added something just for starlight so that it didn't feel useless for them. Like 'While you're in the stance, your range increment increases by +5', +10' if you have weapon specialization and +15' if you have greater weapon specialization.' Nothing earthshattering but it'd give it some use beyond 'well you can punch someone and do more damage'...

IIRC Starlit Span is already considered the best study because of its ranged Spellstrikes. Anything that makes its ranged attacks even better just pushes it further above the other studies.

What maybe they should have done is "While you're in the stance, you can spellstrike at range", rather than it being always on.

In my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that. Starlit Span is the easiest Hybrid Study to use. But it's not better than the other ones if they are properly used. And forcing Arcane Cascade to use ranged Spellstrike would make Starlit Span the worst Study if properly used (but still the easiest Study to use).

The Raven Black wrote:

graystone wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I guess they decided it was not needed.

They could have easily added something just for starlight so that it didn't feel useless for them. Like 'While you're in the stance, your range increment increases by +5', +10' if you have weapon specialization and +15' if you have greater weapon specialization.' Nothing earthshattering but it'd give it some use beyond 'well you can punch someone and do more damage'...

IIRC Starlit Span is already considered the best study because of its ranged Spellstrikes. Anything that makes its ranged attacks even better just pushes it further above the other studies.

What maybe they should have done is "While you're in the stance, you can spellstrike at range", rather than it being always on.

In my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that. Starlit Span is the easiest Hybrid Study to use. But it's not better than the other ones if they are properly used.

But it's exactly the reason starlit span is better in terms of versatility.

A starlit span user with an enemy within its melee reach is going to have the same bonus from arcane cascade as any other hybrid study ( apart from the laughing skull with a free hand ).

Having no enemies within the melee reach, as well as have to recharge the spellstrike, would allow them to spellstrike at range, by simply renouncing to 1-3 extra damage ( laughable, compared to the given versatility from the hybrid study ).

Other studies might have a way to get a similar approach too, but would be limited and feat dependant.

For example, either twisting tree and laughing skull could get an alternative by expending a lvl 10 feat. The former one would also be tied to spell slots, while the latter to focus points.

Every study has its pros and cons, but starlit span ( even assuming it without the bonus from arcane cascade not only on ranged but also melee attacks ) would be top tier anyway because its versatility.

SuperBidi wrote:

In my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that. Starlit Span is the easiest Hybrid Study to use. But it's not better than the other ones if they are properly used.

But it's exactly the reason starlit span is better in terms of versatility.

I haven't spoken of versatility, I have spoken of ease of use. Starlit Span solves the Magus constrained action economy issue. And that's all. There are other ways to solve it, either through your build or through the way you play your Magus.

But overall, it's the case for archers compared to melee characters all accross the board: Archers are easy to use. You can choose a 3-action routine and stick to it round after round with very few variations.

As a side note, there's still the first round issue: Archers very often have to move during the first round as they may have cover or even be badly positioned for an attack. So you meet with Starlit Span the same kind of issues you have with the other Hybrid Studies. The only thing you can't do is end up with no damage at the end of the fight because you fought against your class on top of fighting against the enemies, something I've seen quite a few times at the tables I've played (PFS mostly, so I see many players/characters).

HumbleGamer wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

In my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that. Starlit Span is the easiest Hybrid Study to use. But it's not better than the other ones if they are properly used.

But it's exactly the reason starlit span is better in terms of versatility.

I haven't spoken of versatility, I have spoken of ease of use. Starlit Span solves the Magus constrained action economy issue. And that's all. There are other ways to solve it, either through your build or through the way you play your Magus.

I admit I fail to see any difference since versatility and ease of use are very related in this case.

On the one hand we have a character able to spellstrike every round.

On the other hand we have a character able to spellstrike under specific circumstances ( reach, being quickened, getting specific feats, focus point tied, etc... ).

I am going to make two examples, just to be sure I understood what you said:

An inexorable iron magus could take the beastmaster dedication by lvl 2 and the mature companion by lvl 4 ( being tied to that specific dedication for another class feat, and also being tied to a mount, which is not for granted the magus could take anywhere ).

Another magus could go for the adoped goblin ancestry with a general feat, to get goblin scuttle ( and then its improved version by lvl 9 ) as well as an indipendent familiar by expending a class feat.

Did I understand that right?

PS: If so, hat I meant is that while the two characters would result less ease to play than a starlit span, because of additional requirements, they'd also be less versatile, having to expend feats they could have invested in different ways.

On the one hand we have a character able to spellstrike every round.

That is mostly irrelevant. I've posted a graph in the boards, I don't remember where, that was showing that 3 Greatsword Strikes are dealing exactly the same damage than a Gouging Claw Spellstrike. So, even if Starlit Span can Spellstrike every round, it's not affecting your damage output much.

On the other hand we have a character able to spellstrike under specific circumstances ( reach, being quickened, getting specific feats, focus point tied, etc... ).

Yes and no. Yes, you need to handle properly your Magus to be able to Spellstrike properly. But it's not a question of circumstances, but of how you build and/or play your Magus. If you don't manage to properly use Spellstrike, you'll be behind (Starlit Span and other martials). If you use properly Spellstrike, you should be on par with everyone else.

PS: If so, hat I meant is that while the two characters would result less ease to play than a starlit span, because of additional requirements, they'd also be less versatile, having to expend feats they could have invested in different ways.

In terms of versatility, melee Maguses are able to dish out more damage than Starlit Span Maguses while still being very competitive at range thanks to their spell list. Starlit Span Maguses are much more limited, and will be screwed if Grappled, for example. So in my opinion the versatility is at the advantage of the melee Magus. Now, the melee Magus is way harder to play, that's for sure. But in the hands of an excellent player, I think you get more out of a melee Magus than a Starlit Span one.

HumbleGamer wrote:

On the one hand we have a character able to spellstrike every round.

That is mostly irrelevant. I've posted a graph in the boards, I don't remember where, that was showing that 3 Greatsword Strikes are dealing exactly the same damage than a Gouging Claw Spellstrike. So, even if Starlit Span can Spellstrike every round, it's not affecting your damage output much.

Umm, I don't quite get what you are saying. Yes, you are correct about the damage. But one is doing it in melee range, using every action to attack, triggering AoOs, unable to move or defend themselves on a d8 chassis. Also known as a dead magus.

The other is doing it from 60 feet away.

That is a MASSIVE advantage. There is a reason that most classes have significantly lower ranged damage than melee, since ranged damage is insanely versatile. Magus doesn't really, so Starlit is probably two tiers better than the rest.

I mean if my 2h fighter could do the same damage from 60 feet away, why would I be in melee? Same for Magus.

Bear in mind, I have a melee magus I am playing right now, because I find the ranged playstyle on magus a bit boring (maybe if I could have a gun... hah) But that doesn't mean I don't recognize that being Starlit span would make my character better by quite a bit.

That is a MASSIVE advantage. There is a reason that most classes have significantly lower ranged damage than melee, since ranged damage is insanely versatile.

Rogues and Swashbucklers have the same ranged damage than melee damage, still I have never seen anyone stating that Flying Blade was so good that all Swashbucklers should get it. It looks like it's a bit more complicated than that.

I mean if my 2h fighter could do the same damage from 60 feet away, why would I be in melee?

Maybe to avoid the Wizard to take the heat? Being able to attack at range doesn't put you automatically on the back line. If you have a strong frontline, you can play your Starlit Span Magus from behind and you'll be fine, but if you have a strong frontline you should also be fine with a melee Magus. Now, if your frontline is not that strong or if it takes a beating, then you should go help, because you're a martial after all. I play a Rogue archer, and I'm very frequently on the frontline (I play PFS with her, so the party composition varies a lot and I move my positioning depending on its composition).

Bear in mind, I have a melee magus I am playing right now

Mounted? Goblin + Independent Familiar? Guiding Luck? Or your GM gives you a high amount of Hero Points?

Magus has a strong action economy issue. Starlit Span automatically addresses it, making it the easiest Hybrid Study. There are other ways of addressing it, mounts being the easiest one for melee Maguses. If you don't address the action economy issue, then you play in hard mode. It's possible, through Hero Points or feats like Guiding Luck, to still be competitive but it asks for quite a good player (and it becomes more circumstancial as Hero Points are not only in the player's hands).
So, you can see it both ways. Either stating that Magus works as long as it's properly built and played (my take) or that Magus doesn't work unless you go for Starlit Span or a mount. The former statement is a bit disingenuous as most players won't be able to make Magus work without addressing the action economy issue, the latter is also disingenuous as a good player can make any build work... There's truth in both vision.

I've looked at how Starlit Span Magus compares to a bow Ranger, and I must admit I'm quite suprised by how effective it is. With a Gouging Claw Spellstrike, the Magus does 90% of the damage the Ranger does with 3 arrows. But that's disregarding the Magus ability to use limited resources into its Spellstrike. If I use Fire Ray, then the Magus suddenly jumps at 20-30% extra damage. And if I decide to use a True Strike on my first attack, the Ranger is left alone in the dust.

In my opinion, it's not much melee Maguses but other ranged characters that should be worried about Starlit Span. I change my mind about it, Raven Black, maybe it would be more balanced if it was only available while in Arcane Cascade. I didn't realize how strong it is as is.

Mounted? Goblin + Independent Familiar? Guiding Luck? Or your GM gives you a high amount of Hero Points?

What does Goblin + Independent Familiar do to help action economy?

SuperBidi wrote:

Mounted? Goblin + Independent Familiar? Guiding Luck? Or your GM gives you a high amount of Hero Points?

What does Goblin + Independent Familiar do to help action economy?

Indipendent > Stride ( ending close to the goblin, or the one with adopted heritage goblin + goblin scuttle ) > Goblin Scuttle.

By lvl 9 scuttle gives the possibility to stride for half speed ( mostly, 40 > 20 ).

Djinn71 wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Mounted? Goblin + Independent Familiar? Guiding Luck? Or your GM gives you a high amount of Hero Points?

What does Goblin + Independent Familiar do to help action economy?

Indipendent > Stride ( ending close to the goblin, or the one with adopted heritage goblin + goblin scuttle ) > Goblin Scuttle.

By lvl 9 scuttle gives the possibility to stride for half speed ( mostly, 40 > 20 ).

Oh, that's pretty decent.

If I use Fire Ray, then the Magus suddenly jumps at 20-30% extra damage. And if I decide to use a True Strike on my first attack, the Ranger is left alone in the dust.

In my opinion, it's not much melee Maguses but other ranged characters that should be worried about Starlit Span. I change my mind about it, Raven Black, maybe it would be more balanced if it was only available while in Arcane Cascade. I didn't realize how strong it is as is.

The full routine is a lot more rigid to use than Ranger though, and you have to consider the recharge means you can't True Strike consistently. I think a better comparison for the Focus Point Spellstrike is to the Monastic Archer Monk with Ki Strike. It has less range, but does similar damage with more versatility on a better chassis (saves, health).

The real danger for Ranged DPR comparisons is a Fighter multiclassing into either Monk or Magus and getting these effects with their inherent +2 to hit, even if it is only for one round per combat.