Crimson Throne of Lore

Game Master LoreKeeper

But while the paladin's away... ;p

Not to mention the number of witnesses and that nothing instills a greater sense of trust and love in a girl than napalm. ;)

On your turn you receive 2 skill options that represent the challenges in the Shingles (like a leap across roofs). You can elect to move 1 step without any extra effort (and still have a Standard Action then to do with as you will). Or you can try to move 2 steps - this requires you to chose and succeed on one of the skill options. Or you can try to move 3 steps - this requires you succeed on both skill options. Interesting things happen if you fail these checks - particularly if you fail badly. Doing more than 1 step on your turn is a full-round action.

Shouldn't Pagrip have gone from step 1 to step 3 with his first successful skill check and from 3 to 5 with the second? And shouldn't Ten be on step 3, as he hasn't attempted a skill check yet but has elected to just move one space?

gah! these old chase rules are messing with my head.

You're seriously pitting 3nd-level characters in a chase against someone who has a +23 in Acrobatics???

I certainly hope that's a typo.

Not a typo I'm afraid :)

Trinia is level 4; but used some of her earnings wisely and has a handy potion of cat's grace and jump - along with a Crimson Throne feat (Shingle Runner). You have strength of numbers. This is by-the-book.

We have strength of slowness and low-skill-rank classes. Numbers don't help when we're forced to act individually on our own tracks: It's a five-man race, not 4 against 1; there's no Aid-Anothering.

There are many party make-ups I would pick to do well in a chase. Ours is not one of them. :P

I belieeve I can fllyyyyy (can I get +10 to my checks now?)

We could probably still aid each other (GM willing). If Pagrip needs to make a big jump, Ten could topple something over to bridge the gap. I remember Gears of War doing it rather well. But, it would probably work only once or twice in a chase as the distance between PCs increases.

If only Abadar would give us his Blessing and Strength of Bulls then maybe we might have a chance. But it is too late for us. Go on without us Pagrip. You are our only hope.

Ooh. What about Reginald? Throw Reginald up to Ten. Pass it to Pagrip. Pagrip shoots! ...

We have strength of slowness and low-skill-rank classes. Numbers don't help when we're forced to act individually on our own tracks: It's a five-man race, not 4 against 1; there's no Aid-Anothering.

There are many party make-ups I would pick to do well in a chase. Ours is not one of them. :P

Hey, Pagrip's not totally unsuited to this, especially now that he doesn't have to worry about that pesky -2 penalty! :)

That said, if the +23 is not a typo, does that mean the +15 for the same skill in this post is a typo? Either way, with +15 or +23, she should be auto-succeeding at most of the skill checks, yet she's been inexplicably ignoring them and taking just single steps. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that really smacks of a GM who knows her bonuses are way over the top and so is going easy on the PCs by having her make stupid decisions. She may be "by the book" as you say, but you did presumably convert her from her 3.5 stats (which is what CotC was written for), which does put part of the design blame on you. I know when I ran this chase, Trinia was competent and well-suited for it, but she wasn't capable of auto-succeeding almost every single check. If Trinia had been attempting her skill checks in this race, we would have lost already. The race should be challenging, certainly, but not an auto-failure for the PCs.

+1 to Navior's post. We're totally outclassed, and it feels like you're backtracking so that we feel like we kind of have a shot, even though we really shouldn't.

Rogues/Ninjas and sometimes Rangers/Monks are well suited to these chases. Especially if the chases are weighted to a specific skill set. Course it doesn't help that the party is slow as hell (except for Ten).

So what do those handy Tarot cards do again?

Not every encounter needs to be won for the story to be fun. Both scenarios (Trinia escaping and being captured) are catered for in the book (and from following the online discourse on the chase Trinia escapes in the majority of plays - most parties simply aren't built for the chase). I wouldn't worry about it too much if it feels unfair - it just helps to reveal to PCs where their weaknesses are.

Trinia has +15 to acrobatics (tumble), and +23 acrobatics (jump). Different horses. I didn't bother converting her (other than verifying that the +23 as written is legit); she's straight out of the book. A conversion would not alter her skill totals anyway (other than perhaps adding a skill-feat).

The instructions for Trinia indicate that she doesn't attempt to make every single check unless a PC is hot on her heels, and she avoids certain checks unless necessary. Trinia is not mad out of her mind trying to make the distance - she's got a plan and is running with it.

I know when I ran this chase, Trinia was competent and well-suited for it, but she wasn't capable of auto-succeeding almost every single check.

Then your memory is playing tricks on you. I'm using the numbers for skills and DCs as printed in the AP without change for this encounter. :)

Not every encounter needs to be won for the story to be fun. Both scenarios (Trinia escaping and being captured) are catered for in the book (and from following the online discourse on the chase Trinia escapes in the majority of plays - most parties simply aren't built for the chase). I wouldn't worry about it too much if it feels unfair - it just helps to reveal to PCs where their weaknesses are.

I agree in principle. I don't have a problem with failure or being totally outclassed from time to time. However, if you're going to design a PC auto-failure, then make it an auto-failure. Have Trinia make her checks and leave us in the dust (although that kind of makes the use of the chase rules pointless). That would be far more enjoyable. The problem is the really obvious "pulling of punches" to make the PCs feel better. All that said, I will concede that the book does advise this tactic, and so I'll let you off the hook by placing the blame on really stupid instructions in the book. :)

Quote:

I know when I ran this chase, Trinia was competent and well-suited for it, but she wasn't capable of auto-succeeding almost every single check.

Then your memory is playing tricks on you. I'm using the numbers for skills and DCs as printed in the AP without change for this encounter. :)

It would indeed seem so. I pulled out the book after reading your reply and also took a look at my conversions of Trinia from 3.5 to Pathfinder. I got rid of the...erm...potion that massively boosts her jump, presumably because I saw how it would make the chase pointless, and if I was going to put in the work for the chase, I actually wanted it to be possible (albeit challenging) to catch her. (My PCs actually did catch up to her.) I really like the chase rules, but their biggest downside is that they require preparation and are extremely difficult to use for spontaneous chases.

At any rate, I don't want to be one of those players who's constantly arguing with the GM, so I'll let this go and get on with the game. Pagrip's actually making some headway. :)

Pagrip's actually making some headway. :)

Yeap!

Go Pagrip go!

You know what's really tedious about the chase rules? The high-Dex, high-skill classes who are good at bypassing obstacles are usually also going to be the worst at actually ending the chase, not having the Str for a good CMB. Simultaneously, the NPC trying to get away is both going to be optimized for passing skill checks and have a high CMD due to Dex. So the deck is stacked against the PCs twice, when they're the ones doing the chasing, at least.* Every chase I've seen turns out to be a solo challenge for the rogue/bard/ranger, while the other classes sit around near the starting line and wish they had something to do.

I actually considered including a chase in a campaign a year or two ago but thought I didn't understand the chase rules, both because the "skipping obstacles entirely by passing 2 skill checks" seemed illogical and because the odds of success seemed so low. Turns out I understood them perfectly. :P

Trinia's CMD isn't spectacular. She got okay Dex, but shoddy Strength - weaker than Pagrip even. Her CMD would be 15 (3bab, 2dex) if it wasn't for two spells on her (and other spells that don't affect her CMD). The chase rules are fine as they are; the encounter isn't going to be made easier just because the party is ill-suited for it.

And Pagrip would have a bigger bonus to his check if he had Weapon Finesse (like Trinia). He's a constant mystery, that rogue. ;)

All that negativity just shows that you secretly regret Caulder instead of making a sexy sexy monk. ;)

I actually really like the chase rules, but I understand what Joana's getting at. As I mentioned previously, as much as I like they rules, they have one major flaw, and that's that they need to be prepped heavily in advance. Because of this, there's definitely the temptation for GMs to optimize the NPCs for the chase, which is clearly what this adventure has done with Trinia. Sure, she only has some of her high scores because of spell effects, but those effects were clearly chosen to give her those high scores.

Of course, it makes sense to do that sometimes. Not everything can be a cakewalk for the PCs. But GMs definitely need to avoid the temptation to do it all the time. I don't have a problem with chases often becoming a solo challenge for just one of the PCs (and not because Pagrip is doing well in this one). I think it's a good thing to have encounters once in a while in which one or two PCs shine, just so long as all the PCs eventually get their turn to do the shining.

I ran a chase recently with my tabletop group. The party (all 3rd level) was chasing two NPCs. One was a bugbear warrior, whom I specifically designed to be completely NOT suited to running through the streets of Kaer Maga. He was meant to be easy to catch, having only a good Climb skill and nothing else. My idea was that he would be easily caught by the PCs who weren't well-suited for chasing. The other NPC was a human rogue much more suited for the chase. Although not nearly as optimized as Trinia (no convenient potions of jump and other spells), he was meant to be the challenge for the party's monk who should have been easily able to swoop through the chase without much difficulty.

Of course, the dice gods intervened. The party monk had the most spectacularly bad luck with a string of natural 1s and 2s. Meanwhile, the pathetic bugbear rolled nothing lower than 17. So yep, the monk couldn't even catch the bugbear and both NPCs got away. (The party later tracked them down and cornered them at their hideout.) Despite their bad luck, all the player's had a blast and that chase became the topic of discussion for the next week or so.

One of my main issues with the chase rules is that they're effectively Save-or-Suck effects. If you roll badly on an attack, you almost always get to roll another attack next round. If you roll badly in a chase, well, you might as well just quit because, unless you're a high-skill, high-Dex character, you have no shot of catching up. In a real-life game, where the players who fail are sitting around as nonparticipants for 10 or 15 minutes, it has the potential to be exciting to a spectator; in a PbP where you end up doing nothing for 2 weeks real time, it's a lot more tedious. Caulder is built to work with a group, not every man for himself. Coming on the heels of knivesies, which was another encounter that was necessarily solo, it's been at least six months since the whole party has gotten to work together on something.

And, honestly, the fact that you need to point out the "deficiencies" in Pagrip's build, like the lack of Weapon Finesse, only emphasizes the fact that the chase rules are set up for specific types of characters to "win" and others to "lose," or, if they're smart, not even attempt in the first place. The campaign I was considering using chase rules in, I ended up just making a series of obstacles that the whole group had to overcome to get to their goal and eliminated the sense of urgency. That way, the party could actually help each other via Aid Anothers and clever thinking instead of the auto-succeed characters having to leave behind the auto-fails.

In a real-life game, where the players who fail are sitting around as nonparticipants for 10 or 15 minutes, it has the potential to be exciting to a spectator; in a PbP where you end up doing nothing for 2 weeks real time, it's a lot more tedious. Caulder is built to work with a group, not every man for himself. Coming on the heels of knivesies, which was another encounter that was necessarily solo, it's been at least six months since the whole party has gotten to work together on something.

Yeah, I agree with you here. You can't spend too long focusing on just one or two characters in PbP. It leaves the players of the other characters waiting for way too long.

And, honestly, the fact that you need to point out the "deficiencies" in Pagrip's build, like the lack of Weapon Finesse, only emphasizes the fact that the chase rules are set up for specific types of characters to "win" and others to "lose," or, if they're smart, not even attempt in the first place.

To go on a slight tangent, I disagree with Lorekeeper that Pagrip's lack of Weapon Finesse is a "deficiency". He's not built as a melee fighter so the situations in which he could benefit from it are just too few to be worth it. Not only that, I can't see how it would help him at the moment. I don't think Weapon Finesse is applicable to grapple checks, is it? Disarm and trip, I can see, but not other combat manoeuvres. Otherwise it makes the Agile Manoeuvres feat worthless. Of course, you could consider the lack of Agile Manoeuvres a deficiency, but only for this chase. :)

I don't think Weapon Finesse is applicable to grapple checks, is it? Disarm and trip, I can see, but not other combat manoeuvres. Otherwise it makes the Agile Manoeuvres feat worthless. Of course, you could consider the lack of Agile Manoeuvres a deficiency, but only for this chase. :)

It's ... debated. As usual, James Jacobs has come down on one side of it (you're grappling with an "unarmed strike," which is a natural weapon (unless you're a monk), so you can use Weapon Finesse), but statblocks of Bestiary creatures with Weapon Finesse, like giant centipede, don't apply it to the CMB.

JJ's not a rules man and its been made pretty clear with both stat blocks and developer rulings in the past that bonuses to unarmed strike's don't apply to grapple checks like a weapon used to trip someone would. Grappling is one of the hardest manoeuvres to specialise in as a result. I think Dan and I went over this issue to see if Sajan's weapon focus (Unarmed Strike) applied to his grappling and it didn't.

As for the chase... we had this chase scene in DM Aron's CotCT game. If I recall, the low skill/physically poor characters (my Druid and a Wizard) used our spells rather than give chase. Each chase card by default represents about 30 feet so spells with medium or long range were definitely feasible.

/lurks.

Yeah, I actually looked in your game to see how it played out there. Trinia failed a save vs. hideous laughter (iirc) before it even began, and there was no chase scene. :)

Ah yes. My recall was not correct then :P. But I thought the chase scene in Sargava Saga played out fairly well. There were a variety of tactics used, including spell-casting and shooting the chase leader with arrows. Ultimately, the physical skills-orientated monk managed to clinch it but it was by no means a sure things.

I generally allow Weapon Finesse to apply to combat manoeuvres that you could use a weapon with (even if you're not using one), so trip and disarm primarily (and sunder, too, I suppose, although I don't think it's ever come up as sunder is so rarely used by anyone), but not bull rush, grapple, overrun, and others which don't use weapons. Now I'm wondering if I'm going to have to go back and double-check Mahjik's posts to see if I didn't accidentally allow him to use it with a grapple by not checking his bonuses carefully enough. :)

Back to chases, it's always a good idea to allow for a variety of tactics to help get everyone involved to some extent. A variety of obstacle styles and the checks needed to get past them is good, too. In the chase I mentioned above, I included a couple of Handle Animals checks for the party druid, and even Knowledge (engineering) for the dwarf fighter (to notice which parts of a rickety balcony were safe to cross).

But I thought the chase scene in Sargava Saga played out fairly well. There were a variety of tactics used, including spell-casting and shooting the chase leader with arrows. Ultimately, the physical skills-orientated monk managed to clinch it but it was by no means a sure things.

The nice thing about the Trials, though, was that we were all free to choose which events to participate in so we'd have a reasonable chance of success (save poor Jakob, who was just rolling dice and hoping). We weren't all forced to take part in the Chase, and there were other events going on at the same time so the spotlight wasn't on just one or two PCs. In addition, the Trials weren't all-or-nothing; there were still points to be awarded for coming in second or third so it provided motivation to keep moving even if you had no chance at being the one to catch the monkey. And since the teams competed in pairs, if one fell out of contention early, he could still act to hamper the other competitors and help his partner.

In short, it made it more interesting that the point was less to catch the chasee and more to defeat the other chasers.

As far as spell-casting, it helped that the DM forgot his own rules about no magic being allowed during the chase, so the spellcaster got disqualified early. ;)

He didn't forget, its just that Elves are all damn cheaters you see and...

*skulks away, embarrassed*

I'd tell Ansha that you said that, but she'd probably take it as a compliment. ;)

Pagrip, don't believe in yourself! Believe in Ten, who believes in you!

Pagrip - who's dice will pierce the improbabilities!

How to be a paladin: Feel bad about everything you do. :)

That's just one archetype. There's also:

Make others feel about about everything they do.

Make others feel exasperated about everything you do.

Feel righteous about everything you do in spite of reality.

I just opened my pack of Chase Cards for the first time last night and noted that the chase rules have gone through yet another revision, which actually makes them more logical.

As a full-round action, a chase participant can attempt to move two cards forward. When doing so, he chooses two obstacles -- one on his starting card, and one on the next card -- and attempts checks against these obstacles as part of the full-round action.

So instead of, as Avianfoo mocked, simultaneously swimming across a pond and successfully navigating the slippery path around it and thus somehow teleporting to the other side of the crowded marketplace, you'd either Swim or Acrobatics across the pond and then pick one of the ways to get through the marketplace to attempt. That's not near as mind-bending.

I feel like my mocking is being mocked. ;p I found nothing wrong with the quantum state of both swimming though a pool and balancing over a slippery walkway. As long as when my character falls unconscious, he is immediately placed in a box and remains both dead and alive for rest of eternity. :D

I approve of the chase rules changes. They make way more sense.

Since we're not all together in the crowd, shouldn't that Perception check have been adjusted for distance? I can see Pagrip and Esmerelda making it, but Ten and Caulder must be much further away.

I just opened my pack of Chase Cards for the first time last night and noted that the chase rules have gone through yet another revision, which actually makes them more logical.

Quote:

As a full-round action, a chase participant can attempt to move two cards forward. When doing so, he chooses two obstacles -- one on his starting card, and one on the next card -- and attempts checks against these obstacles as part of the full-round action.

Interesting. Is this purely an update to the chase cards or also to the chase rules as well (in other words, is it updated on D20PF yet :P)?

As far as I know, it's only in the rules for the Chase Cards. I haven't seen any mention of it being errataed for the chase rules in general.

Bah.

Since we're not all together in the crowd, shouldn't that Perception check have been adjusted for distance? I can see Pagrip and Esmerelda making it, but Ten and Caulder must be much further away.

True-ish, but two things: its a shlepp writing out individual DCs; and it's a perception check that is not done in a moment but over the course of a minute or more. I figure standardizing the result is fair enough.

However, technically Caulder should not be really be able to make the check (or receive a stiff penalty) - on the grounds that the check is for noticing the changes in Trinia: which presupposes you've seen her properly two days prior.

Joana wrote:

I just opened my pack of Chase Cards for the first time last night and noted that the chase rules have gone through yet another revision, which actually makes them more logical.

Quote:

As a full-round action, a chase participant can attempt to move two cards forward. When doing so, he chooses two obstacles -- one on his starting card, and one on the next card -- and attempts checks against these obstacles as part of the full-round action.

Interesting. Is this purely an update to the chase cards or also to the chase rules as well (in other words, is it updated on D20PF yet :P)?

According to Vic, we can expect the GMG to match the Chase Card rules in the next printing.

Apologies for the long period of silence. I recently got shipped to the Netherlands and Lore keeps on insisting that I play DotA with him instead of doing other internet stuff.

9 + 2 = 10ft

6 + 3 = 5ft
21 + 2 = 20ft

totals 35ft, surely? :)

Ah, okay. For some reason, I was confusing the DC 10 Intimidate with the Strength check and thinking I had to total 10 to move at all.

It sounds like Esme and Caulder are pro Super Human Registration Act. :P

Pagrip should go "protect" the prisoner, I think. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more)

Pagrip should go "protect" the prisoner, I think. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more)

Oh! I like that idea!

Oh, come on. A +15 to Acrobatics and now a 22 that doesn't hit at 3rd level? I'd heard this AP was a railroad, but this is ridiculous. Why not just have a cutscene to tell us resistance is futile instead of making us play it out round by round? :P

There's no one up there to arrest Pagrip; everyone's too busy dealing with Blackjack and the execution. This is the endgame for Caulder, anyway. He has no way to stop Blackjack; because Blackjack's such a stand-up guy he'll subdue Caulder; and then the publically-humiliated Banker will spend the rest of his days as an NPC villain trying to track down Blackjack and bring him to justice, but he'll never work with the party again. He's Javert.

Remember the whole discussion about how unLawful it would have been for Caulder to use Inspiring Word to give Pagrip a +2 in knivesies? Where on the alignment-change scale do you think aiding a vigilante when we have absolutely no evidence of Trinia's innocence, absolutely no evidence of the Queen's evil, and absolutely no evidence Blackjack is trustworthy falls? When we didn't catch Trinia, she lost her only chance to instill a slight sliver of doubt into Caulder's perception of the highest authority in the land. At this point, the only people we've heard say Ileosa is bad are the same crowds who were looking to lynch Trinia themselves a few days ago; if we're supposed to believe them when they say the Queen's evil, why don't we give any credence to their belief in Trinia's guilt?

Don't point at the plot holes, they will suck you in and destroy you.

I am having a hard time justifying this for Esme. This is definitely more on the "good" side than the "lawful" side. And even that might be pushing it.

Hmmm... I will justify this as an undercover OP to uncover Blackjacks entire ring of vigilantes and arrest them all. Yeah. That makes sense.

There's no one up there to arrest Pagrip; everyone's too busy dealing with Blackjack and the execution.

There's a Hell Knight standing right beside Pagrip. I figured he'd do the arresting. :)

You're absolutely right though that there's not a lot of reason to trust Blackjack and distrust the queen. For Pagrip, I was going primarily on the rushed sentencing of Trinia (of which, while there's no evidence of her innocence, there's absolutely no evidence of her guilt either) and the fact that Blackjack is a folk hero according to the Player's Guide, and someone I always felt Pagrip would look up to just a little. Pagrip was going to just stand in the crowd and secretly cheer Blackjack on without actually getting involved himself. But then Esmerelda dragged him up on stage and things kind of flew away with him. In all honesty, I kind of saw this as the endgame for Pagrip, not Caulder, as Pagrip is the chaotic one in a primarily lawful party.

But yeah, the party is totally way outclassed by Blackjack.

It's difficult for me to discuss this section further without bringing in my meta-knowledge of the campaign, so I'll bow out of the discussion at this point.