| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have red the new death rules, and I think there is a contradiction within the rules.
In the "Dying" paragraph, the new rules state that :
You lose the dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points. When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round.
While, in the "Unconscious" condition, it is stated :
When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from at least 10 minutes to several hours.
In the "Dying" paragraph, it seems like you wake up immediatly, while in the "Unconscious" condition, you have to wait at least 10 minutes.
I think the "Dying" paragraph was intended as you wake up immediatly if you return to 1 or more hit points while having the dying condition. As for the Unconscious condition, you return to 1 HP AFTER the 10 minutes (thus waking up immediatly when you get to 1 HP like stated previously) : as of now, you could read it as "you return to 1HP immediatly and awaken after sufficient time passes".
I saw this problem when one of my players told me "then, knocking someone with non-lethal damages is stronger than knocking them with lethal damages. They wake up immediatly if they succeed at their Fort save to reduce the dying condition, while they have to wait 10 minutes if they were unconscious due to having taken non-lethal damage."
If I'm correct, I would suggest to change for paragraphs like those to make them easier to understand :
You lose the dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points. When you lose the dying condition this way, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round.
When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, the GM determines how much longer you remain unconscious, from at least 10 minutes to several hours. Once this time has passed, you naturally return to 1 HP, and thus lose the unconscious condition and awaken.
What do you think, guys ?
Devs, is my understanding of the rules correct, or is my player's understanding the correct one ?
There's a difference, its sublte and not explicitly called out.
There's two ways to lose the dying condition:
1) rolling and making the save (this leaves you at 1 and unconscious)
2) being healed to 1 or more hp (this leaves you conscious and slowed)
3) Hero point, with its stated rules
In scenario 1 you lost the dying condition first then gained a hitpoint. In scenario 2 you lost the dying condition as a result of gaining hitpoints.
There's a difference, its sublte and not explicitly called out.
There's two ways to lose the dying condition:
1) rolling and making the save (this leaves you at 1 and unconscious)
2) being healed to 1 or more hp (this leaves you conscious and slowed)
3) Hero point, with its stated rulesIn scenario 1 you lost the dying condition first then gained a hitpoint. In scenario 2 you lost the dying condition as a result of gaining hitpoints.
First, you say yourself "In scenario 2 you lost the dying condition as a result of gaining hitpoints." So you are already adding conditions that are missing from the rules as written. That's why I suggested to add "this way". As you said, the difference you see in those rules is not explicitly called out.
Second, for yor scenario 1, you should not get to 1 HP, since you are supposed to wake up immediatly when you get to 1 HP : that is the loophole allowing my player to say that his character should wake up immediatly if they succeed at their save. The only way to stay unconscious is to be at 0 HP. So you should get your HP back once after 10 minutes.
Third, you can read the rules two ways :
1) No links between the two sentences I quoted from the dying paragraph. So whatever happens, when you lose the dying condition, you wake up instantly.
=> You succeed your save, you lose the dying condition, you wake up and lose the unconscious condition. One round.
=> When you take non-lethal damages, you are only unconscious and can't lose the dying condition, since you don't have it. Ten minutes to wake up.
2) The two sentences are linked. You only wake up if you lose the dying condition from being healed (your Scenario 2).
My player genuinly red it the first way, and I red it the second way.
As you can see, the rules are not clear right now, and need interpretation. You yourself already interpreted the rules your own way (which is a third way to interpret them, and I think is influenced by the previous dying rules). If there are exception, they need to be called out, since death rules are something so important they can drastically change how the game is played (because there's a big difference between dealing your BBEG/PC lethal damage and knowing you have at least 10 minutes to tie them up, and your BBEG/PC waking up 6 seconds after being downed to resume kicking butts).
First, you say yourself "In scenario 2 you lost the dying condition as a result of gaining hitpoints." So you are already adding conditions that are missing from the rules as written. That's why I suggested to add "this way". As you said, the difference you see in those rules is not explicitly called out.
Let me quote the PDF for you
You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points.
Pray tell, how would you return to 1 or more Hit Points and still have the Dying condition other than a healing effect?
Following that:
Your slowed value is equal to the dying
value you had when you were healed (so if you were dying 2,
you are slowed 2 for 1 round).
Oh, hey, the phrase "when you were healed" shows up explicitly.
Second, for yor scenario 1, you should not get to 1 HP, since you are supposed to wake up immediatly when you get to 1 HP : that is the loophole allowing my player to say that his character should wake up immediatly if they succeed at their save. The only way to stay unconscious is to be at 0 HP. So you should get your HP back once after 10 minutes.
Lets see...where does it say that you gain 1 HP when you go from Dying 1 to Dying 0?
It doesn't. The only thing that says you return to 1 HP is this line:
You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points.
Which clearly states 'You lose the Dying condition when you rise to 1 HP,' and not 'When you lose the Dying condition, rise to 1 HP.'
And remember, the text on page 295 of the core rule book (Recovery Save Effects) has been overwritten:
The primary dying system replacement overwrites the
sections on pages 295–296.
Third, you can read the rules two ways :
1) No links between the two sentences I quoted from the dying paragraph. So whatever happens, when you lose the dying condition, you wake up instantly.
=> You succeed your save, you lose the dying condition, you wake up and lose the unconscious condition. One round.
What's your Slowed value in this case? It can't be 1 because you had Dying 0 when you regained consciousness. It can't be 0 because the sentence says you are Slowed for 1 round. The other sentence says "when you were healed" and you never received healing.
And how much HP do you have? There is no text that says you move from 0 HP to 1 HP when you recover naturally.
Both of these arguments are why I'm pretty sure you remain unconscious (until healed, either naturally (see Unconscious) or via aid). Prior post should have scenario one be "(this leaves you at 0 [HP] and unconscious)"; consider it a typo, as the recovery roll section makes no statements about the recovery of HP:
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
As you can see, the rules are not clear right now, and need interpretation. You yourself already interpreted the rules your own way (which is a third way to interpret them, and I think is influenced...
Absolutely agreed. No argument.
First, you say yourself "In scenario 2 you lost the dying condition as a result of gaining hitpoints." So you are already adding conditions that are missing from the rules as written. That's why I suggested to add "this way". As you said, the difference you see in those rules is not explicitly called out.Let me quote the PDF for you
Pray tell, how would you return to 1 or more Hit Points and still have the Dying condition other than a healing effect?You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points.
The problem is that you also lose the dying condition if you succeed at your save throw, AND it is said that you wake up when you lose the dying condition. Your Scenario 2 has no problem and is correct no matter how you read it. It's for the scenario one where the rules can be seen as contradicting themselves about when you wake up.
Following that:
Oh, hey, the phrase "when you were healed" shows up explicitly.Your slowed value is equal to the dying
value you had when you were healed (so if you were dying 2,
you are slowed 2 for 1 round).
As said earlier, there is no problem with Scenario 2. This sentence is absolutely correct and does not need to be changed, since, even if considered alone, you can't interpret it (because it explicitely states "when you were healed"). The second sentence in my first quote, unfortunately, is not as explicite as this one (and I tried arguing that since it is in the same paragraph, it should be related, but that wasn't enough to completely revoke the other reading).
Lets see...where does it say that you gain 1 HP when you go from Dying 1 to Dying 0?
"When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round." Since you cannot be conscious and at 0 HP (or you would go unconscious again), you could interpret that you get to 1 HP.
Or you can even say that you lose the dying condition, and regain consciousness but stay à 0HP. If you really want to piss your GM, you can say that it's stated "When you're reduced to 0 Hit Points". But when you wake up, you aren't reduced to 0 Hit Points, you were already at 0 Hit Points.
Again, the same problematic sentence.
What's your Slowed value in this case? It can't be 1 because you had Dying 0 when you regained consciousness. It can't be 0 because the sentence says you are Slowed for 1 round. The other sentence says "when you were healed" and you never received healing.
Either you're Slowed 0 for 1 rounds (thus the Slowed condition disappearing immediatly) because you were at dying 0, either you don't get the Slowed condition since you were not healed.
Keep in mind that I am playing Devil's advocate : some players will show bad faith and try to bend the rules to their advantage, and if we don't do that while in the Playtest, it won't be corrected in the final version and nothing will stop them. In truth, I absolutely agree with you : that's why I created this thread.
But our exchange has showed me the real problem : if you are not willing to spend a dozen of readings on the dying rules (which I had to do to find arguments for both interpretations), you can easily misunderstand the current rules.
My player only red the rules once and thought he was right, even though he himself knew it was a bit weird. I do think that a vast population of players and GMs will not have debate partners willing to dive as deep as fantasy lawyers to get to the same conclusion as us :)
If we want the new Pathfinder to be easy to understand for newcommers (which is what Paizo stated they wanted), we have to make sure the rules are easy and do not need an extensive study of them. They shouldn't be as difficult to read as texts of law :/
Lets see...where does it say that you gain 1 HP when you go from Dying 1 to Dying 0?"When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round." Since you cannot be conscious and at 0 HP (or you would go unconscious again), you could interpret that you get to 1 HP.
Admittedly, that's a stretch, especially considering that the original rules called out that you went to 1 HP. These don't, and the sentence about gaining consciousness is right after one about being healed above 0.
If I take this:
You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points. When
you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are
slowed for 1 round.
And do this:
You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points. When
you lose the dying condition this way, you regain consciousness, but are
slowed for 1 round.
Or do this:
You lose the
dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit PointsWhenyou regain consciousness, but are
you lose the dying condition
slowed for 1 round.
Either of which makes that second sentence supportive of the first explicitly (and not a standalone sentence in between two sentences that ARE clearly linked: "when you rise above 0 HP" and "were healed" must both happen at the same time), rather than leaving it as a limp dangling qualifier intended to be interpreted in isolation (and attempting to interpret it in isolation leads to madness: you gain the Slowed 0 condition, huh?).
But our exchange has showed me the real problem : if you are not willing to spend a dozen of readings on the dying rules (which I had to do to find arguments for both interpretations), you can easily misunderstand the current rules.
Oh definitely. (And I'm not upset with you in anyway, just reinforcing my own argument of interpretation; any anger or aggression is due to frustration with the rules).
Yeah, I prefer your second version of the correction. It's even easier to understand than my first try :)
And no worries. Playtesting has left me pretty frustrated as well, since I can't just handwave when needed :) It was nice debating with you. I just hope the devs will see our exchange and our shared frustration won't go to waste.
And no worries. Playtesting has left me pretty frustrated as well, since I can't just handwave when needed :) It was nice debating with you. I just hope the devs will see our exchange and our shared frustration won't go to waste.