Invisibility, Acrobatics, and AOO

[Savage Wolf]

I am just trying to get a clarification on something for my own piece of mind. I got a VC ruling for local play, but I guess I am a glutton for punishment because I can't wrap my mind around the mechanics.

Situation: An invisible NPC is trying to get through a door blocked by a PC to escape. The other party members are near the door as well, and combat has already ensued. If the invisible NPC tries to acrobatics through the space of the PC blocking the door, and no one in the party succeeds the perception check to notice the NPC, do they increase the DC for the acrobatics check? I am granting the PC who is in the space in question will notice something and be a threat.

My train of thought is that the PC's are all considered flat footed to the invisible character, and if you are flat footed you don't get an AOO unless you have combat reflexes. So in that case they are not considered threatening the squares the invisible NPC is moving through, at least while the NPC is invisible.

The ruling by my VC was that the acrobatics is for moving through threatened squares, so the DC goes up for each PC the NPC was moving past. Invisibility didn't matter.

THanks for your input. Just trying to wrap my head around it. I was not very articulate, to the point of being brain dead, when discussing it with my VC.

[wraithstrike]

By the rules you can't take an AoO against something that has total concealment, and invisibility grants total concealment.

The only way around it is if the potential attack has something like blindsight that negates concealment.

With that being said you are making a common mistake that people make. Flatfooted is a specific condition in Pathfinder just like being stunned is. People are not flat-footed against you because you're invisible, but they do lose dex to AC against your attacks, and because you have total concealment they can't make attacks of opportunity. The flat-footed condition also makes people lose dex to AC and prevents them from taking AoO's against you.

Now you're probably wondering why the different matters.

I'll give you an example. If the enemy is actually flat-footed they can see you, and still not take the AoO unless they have something like combat reflexes.

If the enemy is not flat-footed, but you have total conceal such as from being invisible they still can't take the AoO despite not being flat-footed because you have concealment.

For the most part being invisible gives you the same advantages as someone being flatfooted, but that is not the case.

If you're invisible, but someone has blindsight they can make the attack of opportunity if they're not flat-footed.

IF you're invisible, and the person is also flat-footed they can know you're there, but they can't make the attack of opportunity because they have the flat-footed condition, and can not take attacks of opportunity.

To be able to make an AoO you have to make all of these qualifications.

1 You must not be flat-footed or have any other condition that prevents taking an AoO

2. You must be able to accurately perceive the opponent as in they can't have total concealment. Sight or something such as blindsight normally works here.

3. You must be threatening the opponent.

4. If you can't fulfill the above 3 you must have some sort of rules exception.
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So going back to your situation.

Being invisible does not effect the DC of the acrobatics checks. I tend to RP it as someone bumped into the defending character if an invisible person fails the acrobatics check. That let's them know something is there. <----The rules do not say this. That is just how I do it.

The DC for acrobatics does go up for each potential opponent you have to go past or through, but there is still no AoO.

Combat reflexes wouldn't allow anyone to make an AoO against an invisible opponent. It's intent is to allow you to overcome being flat-footed, which is a different challenge to overcome than making an AoO against an invisible opponent. Basically it only does exactly what it says it does.

To give you an example of AoO and invisible creatures interacting. An invisible caster can be directly in front of you casting a spell, and you can know with 100% certainty that he's directly in front of you casting, and you still can't take an AoO. Combat reflexes does nothing for that either.

[Savage Wolf]

Thank you for that clarification. This helps me understand and therefore clears up my confusion. I am not someone who can just take a flat "I said this so this is the way it is" ruling very easily unless I can understand the reason/rules behind it. It was a problem for me in school as well as now in life.

[Diego Rossi]

Hmm. As often happen, this question has me wondering about the "common" (at least for me) interpretation of the rules.

PRD - Acrobatics wrote:

In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

My newfound doubt is:

Where it gives the ability to pass through an occupied space?
and the reply:
Nowhere, you have to default to the general rules about moving through an occupied space.

PRD wrote:

Moving Through a Square

You can move through an unoccupied square without difficulty in most circumstances. Difficult terrain and a number of spell effects might hamper your movement through open spaces.

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

[b]Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Overrun: During your movement, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see Overrun).

Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

I have seen and used acrobatic to try to pass through squares occupied by creatures that have less than 3 sizes of difference from the one moving, but now i think I was mistaken.

I would like to hear other people opinion.

Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar special abilities.

[Mike J]

You weren't mistaken. While not stated outright in Acrobatics, a common sense reading of Acrobatics indicates you can.

The general rule allows certain creatures (very small and 3+ sizes different) to move through an enemy's space - without making a check. They can just do it.

Core, Acrobatics (partial) wrote:

If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

This sentence only makes sense for creatures that don't get the allowance from the general rule.

There is no mention in Acrobatics of any size restrictions, but plenty of places where moving through an enemy's space is talked about - most of the Acrobatics paragraph you quoted is focused on it. There is even a base DC given for it in the table that follows that paragraph.

[Meirril]

Generally speaking, invisibility doesn't matter in the case that OP is discussing. I find it somewhat difficult to consider someone is stealthly making an acrobatics check to go through an occupied square. (FYI: its not explicitly stated, but Acrobatics heavily implies that the skill allows you to pass through an occupied square. It even gives a DC for doing so) I mean if our invisible acrobat wants to move 10' and try to crawl through the legs of the person in the door when they aren't going to notice I might let them roll a stealth and an acrobatics for the same movement but I'd apply a circumstance penalty to both. Probably -2 for stealth and -4 for acrobatics.

Or they could just forget about being stealthy and use a second movement to stealth at -10 (+20 for being invisible for a total modifier of +10 to stealth if they move less than half their movement in the second move). Since the person trying the acrobatics has total concealment then even the person in the doorway doesn't get a AoO but I'd say they know if someone tries to get past them unless they rolled 10+ over the DC. If other players are crowing around the door then it might be appropriate to just up the DC by 5 for every square the invisible person is trying to pass through. It might also be appropriate to give the invisible person a circumstance bonus for being invisible.

Any way you look at it, I think AoO are not really central to the conflict here? Isn't this mostly about effectively blocking the doorway? Or did I get the wrong impression?

[Diego Rossi]

Mike J wrote:

You weren't mistaken. While not stated outright in Acrobatics, a common sense reading of Acrobatics indicates you can.

The general rule allows certain creatures (very small and 3+ sizes different) to move through an enemy's space - without making a check. They can just do it.

Core, Acrobatics (partial) wrote:

If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

This sentence only makes sense for creatures that don't get the allowance from the general rule.

There is no mention in Acrobatics of any size restrictions, but plenty of places where moving through an enemy's space is talked about - most of the Acrobatics paragraph you quoted is focused on it. There is even a base DC given for it in the table that follows that paragraph.

That sentence make perfectly sense within the limits of the general rule.

Using the general rule you can enter the square, but are subject to an AoO. If you make the check you can avoid the AoO.

[Mike J]

I disagree. The lost action on a failure, which results in not entering the square, is where it fails to make sense. But interpret it how you want. RAW doesn't specifically say, so it is left open to interpretation, unless there is a FAQ (I'm too lazy to go look).

[Irontruth]

Quote:

Moving Through a Square

You can move through an unoccupied square without difficulty in most circumstances. Difficult terrain and a number of spell effects might hamper your movement through open spaces.

Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

Opponent
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Overrun
During your movement, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see Overrun).

Tumbling
A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).

Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

Designated Exceptions
Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar special abilities.

Diego, it's spelled out explicitly in the general rule that you can use Acrobatics to move through an opponent's square. No ambiguity.

[Diego Rossi]

Good. Thanks Irontruth.
Maybe it is age, but when I re-read something after years I can miss a obvious information.

Or maybe it is that reading it on the PDR isn't as good as reading it from the book.