so a friend and i were discussing if a samurai made a good range character. i check all the sites and found out that a samurai, despite having at least to abilities that include longbows, can't make range challenge attacks? is this right?
so a friend and i were discussing if a samurai made a good range character. i check all the sites and found out that a samurai, despite having at least to abilities that include longbows, can't make range challenge attacks? is this right?
You can many any type of attack. You just don't gain the damage bonus unless it is a melee attack. It may still beneficial to use a challenge while doing ranged attacks because of the added benefit depending on the samurai's order. For example, the damage reduction from Order of the Warrior would apply against ranged attacks as well as it does against melee attacks.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the warrior samurai declares a challenge, he receives damage reduction 1/— against attacks made by the target of his challenge. This DR increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses.
But to get the full use of a challenge does require the samurai to be using melee weapons.
It's not cheap, but a Daikyu of Commanding Presence (a magic bow) will let him.
Luring cavalier is a similar thing that will enable you to challenge at range IIRC. Combine it with the order that gives bonuses on ranged attacks...Order of the Land I think.
As far as I am concerned, the Luring cavalier archetype is a terrible trap designed to get you killed. You pick on something that you assume is too far away to engage you, discover to your horror that you're wrong, they're up in your face with a pounce or just insane move, and then tear you to pieces with the +4 bonus that you gave them.
That problem aside, Luring makes you a one-trick-pony cavalier: your Challenge damage will only apply to ranged targets, and you therefore have no flexibility for melee. If you're a samurai proficient in high-threat range exotic weapons, you want Challenge damage in melee to be doubled on crits. (A dex-optimized I-TWF samurai with Improved Critical Wakizashi is straight up terrifying in melee.)
-- Just get your samurai the Daikyu. It's 26kgp, so it'll be around 7th or 8th. Prior to then you won't have a significant number of levels to roll into Challenge damage anyway, so it's not that big of a deal missing out while you wait for your fancy bow.
As far as I am concerned, the Luring cavalier archetype is a terrible trap designed to get you killed. You pick on something that you assume is too far away to engage you, discover to your horror that you're wrong, they're up in your face with a pounce or just insane move, and then tear you to pieces with the +4 bonus that you gave them.
That problem aside, Luring makes you a one-trick-pony cavalier: your Challenge damage will only apply to ranged targets, and you therefore have no flexibility for melee. If you're a samurai proficient in high-threat range exotic weapons, you want Challenge damage in melee to be doubled on crits. (A dex-optimized I-TWF samurai with Improved Critical Wakizashi is straight up terrifying in melee.)
-- Just get your samurai the Daikyu. It's 26kgp, so it'll be around 7th or 8th. Prior to then you won't have a significant number of levels to roll into Challenge damage anyway, so it's not that big of a deal missing out while you wait for your fancy bow.
This challenge remains in effect until... the target hits the luring cavalier with a melee attack.... If this challenge ends because the target hits the luring cavalier with a melee attack, this challenge changes to the effects of the normal cavalier challenge
It's only a +4 for one melee hit and then that bonus is gone and you're using normal melee challenge rules. So sure, you need to be hit once to flex into melee, but it's there.
Yeah, it's only a +4 for one hit, and you're building a bow wielder with a huge damage bonus. You should be alpha striking the crap out of everything. A luring cavalier is a nuke, especially with Order of the Land.
A bonus to damage equal to level + the multitude of attacks you get from archery means you make targets explode. And with a mount you don't really need to ever worry about being able to target enemies with melee attacks or provoking, because you will instead be a mounted archer and mounted archers are absolutely terrifying.
This challenge remains in effect until the target hits the luring cavalier with a melee attack.... If this challenge ends because the target hits the luring cavalier with a melee attack, this challenge changes to the effects of the normal cavalier challenge[/b]
Alright, I did miss that part. It does have a limitation, though: If you desire to challenge your opponent in melee, you're granting him an easy shot, AND you need him to actually HIT you first before any of your Challenge bonuses kick in.
Sometimes you just don't have your bow with you, or it's impractical at that moment (like, you're being grappled, or vision reduced to 5', or enemy has serious piercing DR, etc).
It should be noted that the Daikyu of Commanding Presence is underpriced for what it does. (IMO) That is a very good bow, ever if you never use the banner feature at all.
Order of the Land is certainly not bad, but is shares the limitation of nearly all of the cavalier orders in that its morale bonus doesn't stack with other morale buffs (such as Bless in the low-level game, then later on Heroism, Good Hope, the Flagbearer bard thing, and so on.
Samurai with Order of the Warrior, otoh, is...holy cow. They get Resolve at 1st level:
Remove fatigue? The class is literally begging you to multiclass a level or two of barbarian or bloodrager.Starting at 1st level, the samurai gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and afflictions. He can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every two samurai levels beyond 1st. Whenever the samurai defeats the target of his challenge, he regains one daily use of his resolve, up to his maximum number of uses per day.
Determined: As a standard action, the samurai can spend one use of his resolve to remove the fatigued, shaken, or sickened condition. If the samurai is at least 8th level, he can alternatively remove the exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered condition. If the condition has a duration longer than 1 hour or is permanent, this ability removes the condition for 1 hour, at which time the condition returns.
Resolute: Whenever the samurai is required to make a Fortitude or Will save, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to roll twice and take the better result. He must decide to use this ability before he rolls the saving throw.[i]Built-in Improved Great Fortitude and Improved Iron Will without taking the [i]four feats you'd otherwise need to get them!
Unstoppable: When the samurai is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points but not slain, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to instantly stabilize and remain conscious. He is staggered, but he does not fall unconscious and begin dying if he takes a standard action. He does fall unconscious if he takes additional damage from any source.
Not only do you not die, but you don't fall down prone! ....Spring-sheath out a potion + Accelerated Drinker and you're good to go.
Let's move on to Order of the Warrior:
Nothing particularly awesome here, although the DR is handy in nickle n' dime attriction encounters.Edicts: The samurai must protect the life and lands of his lord with his life. He must be truthful and courageous, respectful to his elders and his masters, and loyal to his friends and liege. He must conduct himself with honor and dignity.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the warrior samurai declares a challenge, he receives damage reduction 1/— against attacks made by the target of his challenge. This DR increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses.
Skills: An order of the warrior samurai adds Knowledge (history) (Int) and Knowledge (nobility) (Int) to his list of class skills. An order of the warrior samurai can make Knowledge (nobility) checks untrained. If he has ranks in the skill, he receives a bonus on the check equal to 1/2 his samurai level (minimum +1) as long as the check involves the nobles or politics of his land.
Honor in All Things (Ex): At 2nd level, the order of the warrior samurai draws strength from his sense of honor. Whenever the samurai makes a skill check or saving throw, he can call upon his honor as a free action to grant him a +4 morale bonus on the roll. He can use this ability once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 2nd (maximum of five times per day at 18th level).
Now, that sucker STACKS with Resolute.
It is really, really hard to blow a saving throw as a samurai once you're up to mid-levels and have multiples per day. Choose dwarf as your race, and it's just silly. You make paladins look lame because they actually fail 5% of the time.
Way of the Samurai (Ex): At 8th level, the order of the warrior samurai’s sense of honor and loyalty drives him to accomplish seemingly impossible tasks. The samurai can, as a standard action, focus his mind and will. Once during the next minute, he can choose to roll an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw three times and take the best result. He must decide to use this ability before the roll is made. Using this ability expends one daily use of his resolve.That's your boss-fight surprise-round buff action.
Strike True (Ex): At 15th level, the order of the warrior samurai can use his years of training and focus to make the perfect strike. When he uses this ability, the samurai makes an attack as normal. If the attack hits, it is a critical threat. The samurai must roll to confirm the critical as normal. The attack deals the maximum amount of damage, although additional dice from weapon qualities, sneak attack, and additional dice from a critical hit are rolled normally. The damage from this attack ignores any damage reduction the target might have and also causes the target to become blinded, deafened, sickened, or staggered for 1d4 rounds (the samurai’s choice). Making this attack is a standard action. The samurai can use this ability once per day.
And that's how you screw the boss in one shot that is probably 99+% chance to hit factoring three rolls, with a Blinded rider.
Give him the Daikyu, and he's hell on wheels anywhere in town or country.
Oh yes! You also get a mount! Let's not forget about that: To build your samurai for maximum destruction, you'll want to multiclass at least one level of barbarian (savage technologist) and one or two levels of monk (sohei) to get Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat without prerequisites (this gives you pseudo-Pounce at low level while TWF'ing a pair of wakizashies). And because lord knows, another +2/+3 to all saves basically lets you flip-off casters (pick up a Ring of Evasion around 9th/10th to eliminate the remaining magic threats).
Yes, morale bonuses can be missed if you have a bard in the party it's true. However, in my party rarely do we have a bard (though we enjoy them when we do). Maybe 1 in 4 games.
Outside of that, I feel like it doesn't come up that often. And while the Order of the Warrior has some interesting abilities, they're honestly not as catchy (to me) as the straight up simple attack bonus.
While the Order of the Warrior has some interesting abilities, they're honestly not as catchy (to me) as the straight up simple attack bonus.
Typically you're not going to have trouble turning things into Swiss cheese as an archer. Making your saves? That's a lot harder, and getting free rerolls to them is the goldest gold in the game. Being able to get rid of exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered at 8th is up there too.
Yes and no.
I see the Order of the Warrior as reactive. You have to sit and wait for something bad to happen to you, and then you can avoid it. I'm not saying the abilities are bad, but I value the proactive abilities more.
Order of the Land allows me to be proactive and completely destroy an enemy with a full attack, and the attack bonus means that I can guarantee all my attacks, even my last iterative with the penalties from deadly aim, rapid shot, etc.
When you're an archer with no attack bonus via class, it's harder to make swiss cheese than you think.
Are you referring to me or Slim Jim?
Because that's the reason I'm advocating Order of the Land.
When you're an archer with no attack bonus via class, it's harder to make swiss cheese than you think.
I seldom have trouble hitting with a full-BAB class (particularly after multiclassing a few levels of something else for rage). Making saves? -- That's a different story.
I'll take the re-rolls every time.
Anecdotal experience is anecdotal.
Even as a full BAB class I've rarely had enough bonus to hit to ensure all of my attacks hit pretty reliably.
I agree that these classes often tend to have problems with saves, but ....
Edit: I just realized that some of goods that you want are simply the base parts of the Samurai chassis, specifically Resolve.
You do know that you can be a Samurai and take a cavalier order right?
You could be a samurai with the Order of the Land.
The Order of the Warrior is very defensive, and it will weather things better than others, but at the same time it's damage output will suffer and it puts the character in a reactive roll rather than an active roll.
IMO, it's better to quickly destroy the enemy (and thereby completely avoid having to make saves or take damage) then it is to try to survive them.
Edit: I just realized that some of goods that you want are simply the base parts of the Samurai chassis, specifically Resolve.Yes.You do know that you can be a Samurai and take a cavalier order right?Of course. But Order of the Warrior is where all the delicious re-rolls come from.
The Order of the Warrior is very defensive, and it will weather things better than others, but at the same time it's damage output will suffer and it puts the character in a reactive roll rather than an active roll.The guy on his feet will always out-damage the one who is out-cold.
IMO, it's better to quickly destroy the enemy (and thereby completely avoid having to make saves or take damage) then it is to try to survive them.
That's the theory, anyway. The problem is that it doesn't not account for traps and opening-salvos.
My policy with martials is to never getting taken out of a fight just because I blew a save in the first round.
Anecdotal experience is anecdotal.
Be that as it may, I have memories of many cake-walk scenarios that would have gone immediately pear-shaped if the lone competent front-liner had gone down in the first round. Other players may not remember the times their characters did not die as a consequence of me making my saving-throws, but I do.
They way I see it, your job as a archer cavalier/samurai is to deal damage. I'm only going to select such a build when I know I have support characters to help me out if things don't go well for me. My job isn't to go it alone, and such a character isn't a "front liner" (no archer is, except maybe the zen archer monk).
Saves have always been a problem for martial characters, yes the Order of the Warrior can mitigate those problems to some extent but at the expense of the thing martial characters are supposed to do.
In any event neither of us are likely to change our opinions, so I will put this discussion to rest for my part.
They way I see it, your job as a archer cavalier/samurai is to deal damage.
My "job" (party role as a martial front-liner) is to stymie the enemy.
If a fall to a saving-throw, I fail.
Doing 90% of the damage of some other guy? Bah... I'll take the slower-but-more-certain victory over the faster-but-much-riskier version.