Should I take a level in Rogue?

[Slim Jim]

Heather 540 wrote:

I will think about taking some fighter levels.

Drill Sergeant gives you one more feat. Since it's granted by the bestowed Tactician ability, it is hella better than any other archetype dipped by a character with Hunter's Tactics.

Quote:

The Commander's Helm is a dwarf item.

It's just a little better if you're a dwarf. Anybody can wear it and get the feat (which you, as a Hunter, will immediately share with your critter). -- It's mainly 10k to buy another Teamwork feat.

[Heather 540]

BaneWorldSlayer wrote:

Just remember that if you retrain Dervish dance, your scimitar no longer qualifies as a finesse weapon, and doesn't qualify for the U.C. rogue Finesse training.

Oh right. Oh well, I'll just apply it to my kunai instead.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

As others have mentioned up to 4 levels of rogue, boon companion and accomplished sneak attacker is a solid multiclass.

Losing spells hurts a little, but if you focus on healing spells and buffing spells with long durations it won't hurt that badly to be honest. You'll basically be trading some spell versatility for higher damage spikes, and rogue tricks.

[Wiggz]

If you're looking for a 1-level dip, honestly I'd recommend a standard Monk or a Brawler.

A level of Monk gets you +2 to all saves, Improved Unarmed Strike for free (very useful being able to deal SA damage even when disarmed) and a bonus feat. For a 2nd level you get another bonus feat, Evasion and a further +1 to all saves.

A level of Brawler gets you +2 to Fort and Reflex saves, Improved Unarmed Strike, you don't slow your BAB and, most importantly, you get Brawler's Flexibility - give yourself any combat feat that you qualify for (including those Teamwork feats) as a move action 4/day. That's some serious versatility there.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Dipping into Rogue, Ninja, or Snakebite Striker Brawler totally makes sense for a Sneak Attacking Halfling.

The things about Unchained Rogue I really like are Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training, but you already have Weapon Finesse, and with Dervish Dancer, you already have Finesse Training (pretty much). So, if you are thinking of dippiong into Unchained Rogue, maybe you should dip into Ninja instead, learning poisons and maybe Ninja Vanishing Trick, so you use Invisibility as another way to score your Sneak Attack Damage.

Hehe, take 3 levels in Ninja then 3 levels in Monk, Drunken Master of Many Styles: take Panther and Ascetic Style Feats. With Panther Claw, you get to make a Free Action Unarmed Strike every time you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square, up to 4/Round with your 18 Wisdom. With Ascetic Style, you can use some other weapon. With your 3rd level in Monk, you can get Drunken Ki, replenishing your Ki Points for you Ninja Vanishing by drinking.

It looks like your character doesn't have Improved Feint. That seems like a good one for you take. Since you have Broken Wing Gambit already, you must already have a lot of Ranks in Bluff, so you might consider Improved Feint as another way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. I also like the Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver: make your opponents Blind and lock in your SAD that way.

[Heather 540]

Since I need to keep Dervish Dance, I'll just use the Finesse Training to get Dex-to-damage on my kunai. Then I'll go with this build, perhaps.

Retrain the extra Weapon Finesse for Combat Expertise and take Paired Opportunists at character level 7.
At Rogue level 2 AKA character level 9, take Boon Companion and Combat Trick, taking Combat Reflexes.
At level 8 Hunter AKA character level 11, Mounted Combat.
At level 4 Rogue, I'll go with the Ninja Trick to get Pressure Points.
Level 9 of Hunter will be character level 13 so I'll get one regular feat and a bonus teamwork feat. Shake It Off as the teamwork feat and either Expanded Arcana or Shield Focus as the regular feat.

[Lady-J]

Heather 540 wrote:

Since I need to keep Dervish Dance

not necessarily you could use a rapier or if you want to keep it slashing damage you can use the

custom weapon creation rules:

Creating New Weapons

Source PPC:WMH

It is next to impossible for any game to cover every conceivable weapon from all cultures, eras, works of fiction, and players’ imaginations. In many cases, new weapons can be represented as slightly different versions of existing weapons, such as a Chinese dao that uses the shortsword rules. However, for those cases when new weapon statistics are truly needed, this section introduces rules for GMs to use as guidelines.

This weapon design system allows you to create a new weapon by buying weapon qualities with Design Points (DP). The number of Design Points a weapon receives is determined by whether it is simple (4 DP), martial (5 DP), or exotic (6 DP).

All new weapons begin with the following base statistics: Dmg (M) 1d3; Critical ×2; Type any one (B, P, S); Price 1 gp × the weapon’s base DP.

In addition, you choose whether your base weapon is a melee weapon or a ranged weapon. If you choose ranged, you must decide whether the weapon is a projectile weapon or a thrown weapon. A projectile ranged weapon has a 50-foot range increment and uses ammunition, while a thrown ranged weapon has a 10-foot range increment.

Fighter Weapon Group: You must choose the fighter weapon group (or groups) to which your weapon belongs. When determining this, pick the fighter weapon group with the most weapons that have similar statistics (in the case of ranged weapons, the group with the most weapons that are reloaded in the same manner). Some fighter weapon groups grant weapons additional abilities, as noted below.

Double: The weapon gains the double special feature. You pick the damage type of each of the weapon’s ends separately. If you choose the additional damage type or the improved damage quality with the weapon (see below), treat each end as a separate weapon when determining the Design Point cost of that quality.

Monk: A weapon can be placed in the monk group only if it gains the monk weapon feature (see below).

Hands: For melee weapons, you must choose whether your weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed. For ranged weapons, you must choose how many hands it takes to attack with your weapon and (for projectile ranged weapons and slings) how many hands are required to load it. The base number of Design Points of one-handed and ranged weapons increases by 2, and the base number of Design Points of two-handed weapons increases by 3.

Weight: When determining a weapon’s weight, use the weight of a weapon with similar damage and features.

Weapon Qualities
When designing a new weapon, you can choose from the following weapon qualities. Each quality can be selected once unless otherwise specified.

Additional Design Points (0 DP): Increase the weapon’s available Design Points by 1 and its gp price by 15. This quality can be selected twice for one-handed weapons and ranged weapons, or three times for two-handed weapons.

Additional Damage Type (Varies): Select an additional type of damage (B, P, or S). The weapon deals the selected type of damage either separately from its original damage type (such as “P or S”) or simultaneously (such as “P and S”) . This quality costs 1 DP if the types apply separately and 3 DP if they apply simultaneously.

Aerodynamic (1 DP): The weapon has a 10-foot range and can be thrown up to 5 range increments. Only melee weapons can have this quality.

Attached (1 DP): The weapon is attached to the wielder’s arm and cannot be disarmed. The wielder can wield or carry items in the hand to which this weapon is attached, but she takes a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks). This penalty can be removed by increasing this quality’s cost to 3 DP.

Concealed (1 DP): The weapon is easy to hide, granting the wielder a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it. Only light and one-handed melee weapons and ranged weapons that need one hand to fire can have this quality.

Ease of Grip (1 DP): The weapon can be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon. Only one-handed exotic weapons can have this quality.

Expanded Range Increment (1 DP): The weapon’s range increment increases by 10 feet, up to a maximum range increment of 30 feet for thrown weapons and 120 feet for projectile weapons or slings. This quality can be selected multiple times.

Finesse (3 DP): The weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse as if it were a light weapon. Only one-handed and exotic melee weapons can have this quality.

Fragile (–1 DP): The weapon gains the fragile special weapon feature.

Improved Critical Multiplier (Varies): Increase the weapon’s critical multiplier by 1. This quality can be selected twice. It costs 3 DP the first time it is selected, and 6 DP the second time. It can be selected only once if the weapon has the improved critical threat range quality, in which case the Design Point cost is doubled.

Improved Critical Threat Range (Varies): Increase the weapon’s critical threat range by 1. This quality can be selected twice. It costs 3 DP the first time it is selected and 7 DP the second.

Improved Damage (1 DP): Increase the weapon’s damage dice by one step (1d3 to 1d4, 1d4 to 1d6, 1d6 to 1d8 or 2d4, 1d8 to 1d10, or 1d10 to 2d6 or 1d12). This quality can be selected three times for light weapons, four times for one-handed weapons and ranged weapons, and five times for two-handed weapons. Among weapons sized for Medium characters, the maximum damage is 1d6 for light weapons, 1d8 for one-handed weapons (1d10 if exotic), 1d12 or 2d6 for two-handed weapons, and 1d10 for ranged weapons (1d6 if used or thrown one-handed).

Lesser Damage (–1 DP): Reduce the weapon’s damage by one step (1d3 to 1d2). A weapon cannot have the improved damage quality and this quality simultaneously.

Shield (1 DP): The weapon counts as a light shield made of wood or metal and can have armor spikes (your choice). Add the gp price of the shield and any armor spikes that the weapon gains from this quality to the weapon’s gp price. This quality can be added only to one-handed melee weapons.

Spring-Loaded (2 DP): The weapon’s wielder can activate or suspend its reach as a swift action. This quality can be added only to one-handed or two-handed melee weapons with the reach special feature.

Strong (1 DP): The weapon’s wielder gains a +2 bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense to resist sunder combat maneuvers attempted against the weapon.

Tool (0 DP): The weapon can also serve as a specific mundane tool. Add triple the price and double the weight of the tool to the weapon’s final price and weight.

Traditional (1 DP): Select one race with the weapon familiarity racial trait (such as elves or orcs). Members of that race with the weapon familiarity racial trait treat the weapon as a martial weapon. This quality can be applied only to exotic weapons.

Weapon Feature (Varies): Choose one of the following weapon special features for the weapon: blocking, brace, deadly, disarm, distracting, grapple, monk, nonlethal, performance, reach, or trip. This quality can be selected twice for martial weapons and three times for exotic weapons. It costs 1 DP the first time it is selected, 3 DP the second time, and 4 DP the third time.

and make a scimitar like weapon that is finesseble and compatible with the rogue finesse training

[Heather 540]

I've already enhanced my scimitar several times. I don't have the gold to start over with a new main weapon.

[Lady-J]

Heather 540 wrote:

I've already enhanced my scimitar several times. I don't have the gold to start over with a new main weapon.

it doesn't have to be instantly, talk to your gm about maybe finding it in a dungeon or as a quest reward

[Cevah]

Heather 540 wrote:

I didn't take it. Since I couldn't use Mick as a mount until level 4 and there are a lot of dragons in the campaign, I took Longstrider and Resist Energy after Cure Light Wounds and Magic Fang. I get 2 level three spells and another level one spell at 7th level hunter.

Get a Page of Spell Knowledge for 1,000 gp. Problem solved without waiting.

/cevah

[Heather 540]

That's a lot of gold for a single use spell.

[Lathiira]

It's not a single-use spell, Heather. It effectively adds the spell to your spells known, allowing you to cast it with your spell slots.

[Heather 540]

Ooh, that's much better.

[Lady-J]

still not really worth it imo

[The King In Yellow]

I'd also suggest taking a look at up to 4 levels of Vanguard archtype Slayer.

[Slim Jim]

The King In Yellow wrote:

I'd also suggest taking a look at up to 4 levels of Vanguard archtype Slayer.

Of curiosity, why Slayer/Vanguard?

If a halfling Hunter has four levels to dip out, and no more (Boon Companion limitation), and desires both sneak-attack and Teamwork feats, I think he's better off with cavalier(1or2) + Unchained rogue(2or3). He gets same or more sneak-attack dice, eliminates armor penalties to Ride, gets Challenge, gets Evasion, and gets Use Magic Device. Depending upon his GM's handling of cavalier mount choices, it might even fully stack with his Hunter (and will in any case if he sticks with the pig). By mid-level, 16kgp into Vambraces of the Tactician and Champion's Banner will let him smack things around like a Cavalier with +6 level's worth of Challenge bonus.

[Heather 540]

I took a look at the Slayer. I don't think it would fit my build very well.

Question - is the bonus teamwork feat that a level one cavalier gets the only one it can share? Because being able to share Pack Flanking would be pretty helpful.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Heather 540 wrote:

I took a look at the Slayer. I don't think it would fit my build very well.

Question - is the bonus teamwork feat that a level one cavalier gets the only one it can share? Because being able to share Pack Flanking would be pretty helpful.

The bonus Teamwork Feat the Cavalier takes is the only one it can share.

[Heather 540]

Understood. If I do decide to take a level in Cavalier later, I'll have to choose a helpful feat. Ferocious Loyalty looks good. Harder They Fall might be helpful for Mick Bull Rushing an opponent later in the game, though that would be more for a hunter's bonus feat rather than a cavalier's.

[Heather 540]

Hey, if Mick has Greater Bull Rush, would I get an AoO from it when I'm riding him? And would that set off the effects of Paired Opportunists?

[The King In Yellow]

The difference with the vanguard slayer is their tactician ability can be used to grant -any- of the slayer's teamwork feats to everyone, not just the -one- you pick for free like cavalier does. And I'll admit I'm a bit of a fan of options.

Not claiming it's the best option to pick, but it -is- an interesting option.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Heather 540 wrote:

Hey, if Mick has Greater Bull Rush, would I get an AoO from it when I'm riding him? And would that set off the effects of Paired Opportunists?

Mick is your Mount? Yes, if Mick has Greater Bull Rush, you get an Attack of Opportunity when he Bull Rushes an opponent out of your Threatened Square. And if you both have Paired Opportunist, he gets one, too.

I have a build idea that uses Shield Slam, GBR, and PO. I was thinking that if I got into a Flanking Position, then when I took my AoO, it would be another Shield Bash, then we'd all get AsOO again, looping for as long as our Combat Reflexes lasts.

[Scott Wilhelm]

The King In Yellow wrote:

The difference with the vanguard slayer is their tactician ability can be used to grant -any- of the slayer's teamwork feats to everyone, not just the -one- you pick for free like cavalier does. And I'll admit I'm a bit of a fan of options.

Not claiming it's the best option to pick, but it -is- an interesting option.

Ooh, I missed that nuance in Vanguard Slayer! That makes it an Interesting option indeed! I am a fan of options, too!

[Slim Jim]

Assuming Heather's character has at least three levels of Hunter, sharing Teamwork feats with the mount isn't going to be a problem.

[Heather 540]

Irlana the halfling has 6 levels of hunter, so that is no problem. Guess I'm getting Mick Improved Bull Rush and Greater Bull Rush. Getting him Combat Reflexes won't help much though, as his Dex is only 13. It'll only give him one extra AoO. If I ever decide to take a level in Cavalier, I can retrain his extra Light Armor Proficiency for something.

[Slim Jim]

Heather 540 wrote:

Irlana the halfling has 6 levels of hunter, so that is no problem. Guess I'm getting Mick Improved Bull Rush and Greater Bull Rush. Getting him Combat Reflexes won't help much though, as his Dex is only 13. It'll only give him one extra AoO. If I ever decide to take a level in Cavalier, I can retrain his extra Light Armor Proficiency for something.

Buy him an ioun stone for dex, and bump his dex at the next point you can (usually every other level for ACs). Combat Reflexes will generate more damage than just about anything once your halfling half of the tag-team duo starting tripping and repositioning targets next to him.

[Heather 540]

I will consider it.

[Heather 540]

Well, I just bought a Headband of Vast Intelligence to bump my Int to 13. Now I qualify for Combat Expertise. As soon as I level up, I'll take it and can get Pack Flanking up and running again. The GM says we should hit it soon.

[Cevah]

Give the boar an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Fortuitous enchant. This gives it an extra AoO.

/cevah

[Heather 540]

Interesting.

[Lady-J]

Cevah wrote:

Give the boar an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Fortuitous enchant. This gives it an extra AoO.

/cevah

no it gives it an extra attack on an aoo at a -5

[TOZ]

"...he can make a second attack of opportunity with this weapon ..."

[Ferious Thune]

“... against that foe at a -5 penalty.”

It’s oddly worded, but it doesn’t look like it just flat gives you an extra AoO to use against anyone. Once a turn, when you hit with an AoO, you get an extra AoO against the foe that you hit with a -5 penalty.

Does the foe need to provoke again? Or do you just get a free attack against them at -5?

[TOZ]

Free attack. Otherwise it would never trigger.

[Heather 540]

It doesn't really sound like an extra AoO, but an extra attack for that AoO if the first one hits.

I don't even need the Amulet to get the enchantment. I can just put it on his Tusk Blades.

[Ferious Thune]

I mean, that’s how I think it works, too. The enhancement was brought up in the context of being a replacement/lesser alternative for Combat Reflexes, and that’s not really what it is, since it doesn’t help you against a second opponent provoking. It’s still a good enhancement and worth considering if you’re getting an AoO frequently.

[Heather 540]

I do having Broken Wing Gambit and will have Paired Opportunists when I level up.

[Lady-J]

the enchant give an iritative attack on an aoo that is already taking place if the 1st attack hits, and i just saw it was only once a round so its not as useful as i previously thought

[Heather 540]

Probably. But it's still an extra attack so it'll be a nice little bonus.

[Lady-J]

ya but it puts a dent into one of the characters i was sitting on as it cuts the attacks i make based off of aoos in half

[Heather 540]

How so? Does it use up a second AoO to make the attack?

[Lady-J]

Heather 540 wrote:

How so? Does it use up a second AoO to make the attack?

no but it means i can only get 1 AoO in a round that i get the 2nd attack at a -5 my previous build was built around getting 7+ aoos in a round and getting 2 attacks off per person per trigger combined with abilities that hinder the opponent on an aao the fact i dont get the 2nd attack on every aoo changes things drastically

[Heather 540]

Ah, I see.

[Slim Jim]

To be on the safe side, assume that you need Combat Reflexes (or the like) to build up an available pool of AoOs per round for Fortuitous to tap into.

[Lady-J]

Slim Jim wrote:

To be on the safe side, assume that you need Combat Reflexes (or the like) to build up an available pool of AoOs per round for Fortuitous to tap into.

not needed the 2nd attack is part of the same aoo that was triggered it is just a 2nd attack

[TOZ]

It flat out says it is a second attack of opportunity, not a second attack. Run as you wish, but I count it against your AoOs per round.

[Lady-J]

TOZ wrote:

It flat out says it is a second attack of opportunity, not a second attack. Run as you wish, but I count it against your AoOs per round.

if it counts as a 2nd aoo then you need to have a 2nd trigger for the attack which defeats the purpose of the ability

[TOZ]

No, the ability itself is the trigger.

[Lady-J]

TOZ wrote:

No, the ability itself is the trigger.

maybe so but it wont incroch oppon the wielder's normal pool of aoos for doing so nor does it need combat reflexes as the "aoo" is generated by the weapon enchantment itself and not dependent on the wielder

[TOZ]

It still requires the wielder to be able to make another AoO. Nothing in the enchantment says it is a free attack, such as with haste or speed.