| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Maybe this has already been resolved, and I think the answer is probably no (without Improved Unarmed Strike), but looking at two different parts of the Starfinder Core Rulebook has me wondering.
Natural Weapons
Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic.
and
Reach and Threatened Squares
Your reach is the distance at which you can attack foes in melee combat. If you are wielding a melee weapon or are otherwise capable of making a melee attack (e.g., if you have your own natural weapons), you threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn (the exception is unarmed strikes - if you’re making unarmed strikes, you don’t threaten other squares).
Emphasis Added - I think the end result is that you threaten with natural weapons unless those natural weapons are unarmed strikes?
The vesk ability is labeled "Natural Weapons" which is specifically called out as threatening all squares that they can make a melee attack into. i would think that the by name call out is pretty clear that it overrides the Unarmed Strikes clause on page 255.
I can see that interpretation, as well. It just seems ambiguous to me, since natural weapons and unarmed strikes are addressed in the same sentence. "Considered armed" isn't exactly defined either, so far as I can tell. :-/
If "Vesk are always considered armed" does not mean that they threaten even when wielding no other weapons, then what does it mean?
I agree we can infer that's what it means, but it isn't called out anywhere. I have no alternative definitions to offer, and I'm not looking to argue for the sake of it. If it's largely accepted that vesk threaten with their natural attacks, rad. Headcanon accepted. : )
Pathfinder frequently uses language like that to indicate exactly that. Compare the language for the Improved Unarmed Strike in Starfinder and in Pathfinder. The Starfinder version is clearer, but the language of the Pathfinder version closely matches the Natural Weapons ability in the Vesk racial description.
Heh. I would prefer not to have to reference Pathfinder to clarify rules for my Starfinder game, similarities notwithstanding. : )
I think it is a real stretch to think of Vesk as unarmed and not threatening. What I'm seeing is the SF is much more open rules-wise and doesn't try to cover every contingency.
With the release of the Alien Archive and Dead Suns #2, it's become rather apparent to me that natural attacks on PC races are kind of all over the place.
Some deal a set amount of damage while others simply do the same amount as unarmed strikes. Some change the damage type, while others do not. Yet still others deal no bonus damage, damage equal to your level, 1.5x your level, or even double your level.
Some say they deal lethal damage and are not archaic, whereas others don't say anything of the sort (leading one to believe that they remain archaic nonlethal weapons).
If this could get cleared up, and some consistency put into place, then maybe questions like this wouldn't be quite as common.
I'd say they threaten unless holding a 2 handed range weapon, as changing grip on a weapon is a swift action
Their natural weapons include teeth and tails. Why would they not threaten with their hands full?
It specifically mentions tail slapping in the vesk description, pluss there's the beard spikes, so I'm pretty sure you would threaten no matter what your hands are doing.
My mistake-I was thinking it was just hands/claws. Never mind then :)
|
It specifically mentions tail slapping in the vesk description, pluss there's the beard spikes, so I'm pretty sure you would threaten no matter what your hands are doing.
All this is mentioned in physical description section. Which is more a kind of portrayal thing, rather than strict definition of natural weapons. Moreover, nothing there says their teeth or claws are used in combat. It says, vesks use them to intinidate other races, not to attack. Tail slaps are used in some martial arts, just like some human monks can attack with head or knees. This does not mean that all humans can do such attacks. This is called racism.
Vesk have natural weapons, and are always considered armed. They threaten with their natural weapons.
I guess the question is whether or not they threaten with their natural weapons even if holding a ranged (or unwieldy) weapon in both/all arms. Right now it appears that they need to take a swift action to move a hand off their gun unless they have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
I guess the question is whether or not they threaten with their natural weapons even if holding a ranged (or unwieldy) weapon in both/all arms. Right now it appears that they need to take a swift action to move a hand off their gun unless they have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.Vesk have natural weapons, and are always considered armed. They threaten with their natural weapons.
No, they are always considered armed. They don't need improved unarmed strike. I really think you guys are looking too much into this. Look at all the text instead focusing on like a word or two. You need to compare the vesk to other races that have natural weapons and not compare them to humans. Humans don't have natural attacks so we shouldn't compare them. Below are a few races that have natural attacks.
They can deal 1d3 lethal piercing damage with unarmed strikes, and those attacks don’t count as archaic.
Stringer
They can deal 1d3 lethal piercing damage with unarmed strikes, and those attacks don’t count as archaic.
Horns
They can deal 1d3 lethal slashing damage with unarmed strikes, and the attack does not count as archaic.
Claws
Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic.
And, wait one sec...?? Why doesn't the vesk have a damage type linked to their natural attack? It's because vesk have a mouth full of razor teeth, nasty looking claws and tail that you could whip someone. Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning.
If a vesk is using a ranged weapon and shoot, the enemy gets an AOO. They the vesk is using a ranged weapon but use their bite (claws or tail) the enemy doesn't get an AOO. Does that make sense?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic.And, wait one sec...?? Why doesn't the vesk have a damage type linked to their natural attack? It's because vesk have a mouth full of razor teeth, nasty looking claws and tail that you could whip someone. Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning.
Technically, if the damage type is not specified, it does the same kind of damage as a regular unarmed attack, which is bludgeoning. You could make logical arguments that it could be any of those three, but the default rule applies unless clarified or errata'd.
If a vesk is using a ranged weapon and shoot, the enemy gets an AOO. They the vesk is using a ranged weapon but use their bite (claws or tail) the enemy doesn't get an AOO. Does that make sense?
This isn't really the question. The question is whether or not the vesk with both hands on a ranged or unwieldy weapon can MAKE an attack of opportunity if someone it provokes. As it stands, it appears as though a vesk without Improved Unarmed Strike must have a hand free to take the strike, regardless of the "flavor" of what item of the vast vesk natural arsenal they're using, fluff-wise.
It seems to me that none of the natural weapons crew actually lists what appendage they are using. While it makes sense that the nuar is goring with their horns, it does not say anywhere that they can override normal unarmed attack protocols other than the damage type, lethality, specialization, and archaic status.
It might seem pedantic and easily houseruled, it actually is an important distinction for society play.
|
|
I have been reviewing the texts, and I have reached some conclusions that I would like to share with you, my fellow GMs.
In each paragraph I will try to put: rule to be treated, rules that affect the rule we are dealing with, exceptions to the rule and conclusions.
First, I would like to apologize if you notice strange words, but English is not my mother tongue and I would like to help in this post, because I have a question that complicates it even more and I need to lay a foundation to explain my doubt.
SRC 53 - Vesk - Natural weapon: Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic. In Glossary pag 512: Monsters often can make attacks with their natural weapons, such as claws, or they might have access to other special attacks. See page 240. Src 243: All characters are proficient with any natural weapons they might have, such as a claw or bite attack.
Then we can say that a Vesk have natural weapon: Claw and Bite (I have not counted tail, because a i dont find any reference in the core and in the faq, i love if you can confirm this part, and I have not counted horn because a don´t see any vesk with horns)
SRC 190 - unarmed strikes: An unarmed strike can be dealt with any limb or appendage. Unarmed strikes deal nonlethal damage, and the damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage rolls. SRC 255 (reach and threatened square - you threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn (the exception is unarmed strikes—if you’re making unarmed strikes, you don’t threaten other squares).
Then we can say that a Vesk are always considered armed for the purposes (in my opinion) of bypass the rule 255 [the exception is unarmed strikes—if you’re making unarmed strikes, you don’t threaten other squares] This in concrete.
SRC 180: Archaic - This weapon deals 5 fewer damage unless the target is wearing no armor or archaic armor. Archaic weapons are made of primitive
materials such as wood or common steel.(WTF.... I have been misusing this rule in my games, which is a serious error on my part*1.)
Then we can say that a vesk's natural weapons don´t count how archaic for the purposes (in my opinion) of bypass this rule.
The question that surely one is doing is.
If Vesk armed with a ranged weapon can make an opportunity attack with a natural weapon?
AoO SRC 248-249: AoO only can be made in 3 cases. (i don´t put, the post it's getting really long)
The answer is Yes But the player has choose with which of your natural weapons (bite, claw [only if the weapon can be handled with 1 hand, and tail if is legal this part).
Why do you have to choose?
This question brings me to the last part of the description of the vesk's natural weapons and finish.
SRC 53 - Vesk gain a unique weapon specialization with their natural weapons at 3rd level, allowing them to add 1–1/2 × their character level to their damage rolls for their natural weapons (instead of just adding their character level, as usual).
The player must choose which one benefits from this ability (bite, claw or ¿tail?)
this only my own teory over Vesk´s Natural Weapon. I hope to be helpful and I still have my question to ask.
PD: *1 - This rule I did not take into account the -5 damage to archaic weapons, and I used it badly
It might seem pedantic and easily houseruled, it actually is an important distinction for society play.
100x this!
I completely agree it feels incredibly pedantic to argue the specifics of an application on the natural weapons traits, but it annoys me to no end when I see "Vesk Unarmed" builds trying to exploit the poor wording and stacking Improved Unarmed Strike. Yes, it's easy to house rule that Natural Weapons are a special form of "unarmed strike", in that you are not wielding a manufactured weapon, and therefore do not gain benefit from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat which seems to be written with traditional martial arts concepts in mind. Again, this feels pedantic because at the end of the day unarmed builds, even if they look to exploit the wording loophole of "Natural Weapons", still fall behind everyone else using weapons. I mean, I get it... people love monks. I know I do, but good grief.
|
|
I do not know if I have translated your post well.
But Natural Weapon Are a Special Form of Unarmed Strike Core Rule, no House Rule.
Unarmed Strike is a Weapon, Type Uncategorized Weapons, and archair
Natural Weapon is a Extraordinay Ability Racial Trait that change some qualities from Unarmed Srtrike.
This changes are (in vesk):
- no threaten to considered armed (for Aao and more rules)
- non lethal to Lethal.
- archaic to no-archaic.
- (possibly also change type of damage, but, i dont have confirm yet).
Except this, everything else remains the same.
Improved Unarmed Strike feat yes can be used with natural weapon, but, we must get the pathfinder regulation out of our minds.
i see a thread if Improved Unarmed Strike feat don´t have a errata because no change a Unarmed Strike of, no-Lethal and archaic to lethal and no-archaic.
Oldskool Is right whit the people love monk, but in starfinder, for the moment, don´t have monk.
for finish.
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat) You have trained to make your unarmed attacks lethal and strike with kicks, head-butts, and similar attacks.
Benefit: Your unarmed attack damage increases to 1d6 at 4th level, 2d6 at 8th level, 3d6 at 12th level, 5d6 at 15th level, and 7d6 at 20th level. You threaten squares within your natural reach with your unarmed strikes even when you do not have a hand free for an unarmed strike. If you are immobilized, entangled, or unable to use both legs (or whatever appendages you have in place of legs, where appropriate), you lose the ability to make unarmed strikes without your hands. When making an unarmed strike without your hands, you can’t use such attacks for combat maneuvers or similar abilities—only to deal damage.
Normal: You don’t threaten any squares with unarmed attacks, and you must have a hand free to make an unarmed attack.
this feat increase the damage and threaten squares (if don´t threaten before), but the special properties of unarmed strikes, (Archaic, nonlethal)they remain the same with or without feat.
as always, it's my opinion and it can be debated
It just seems ambiguous to me, since natural weapons and unarmed strikes are addressed in the same sentence. "Considered armed" isn't exactly defined either, so far as I can tell. :-/
There is no ambiguity here. Please re-calibrate.
Vesk are always considered armed.
How on earth do you get anything but they're always armed out of that? I'm going to consider you armed, but ignore that you're armed....?
Vesk are specifically called out as being able to use their tails to make unarmed strikes , so unless you gun has some REALLY funny grip requirements, you can tailwhack people while holding the laser machine gun.
I do not know if I have translated your post well.
But Natural Weapon Are a Special Form of Unarmed Strike Core Rule, no House Rule.
Unarmed Strike is a Weapon, Type Uncategorized Weapons
I think something was lost in translation.
I understand how the rules are written. I just disagree with them. I prefer to keep natural weapons and unarmed strike as separate things for a number of reasons.
It might seem pedantic and easily houseruled, it actually is an important distinction for society play.100x this!
I completely agree it feels incredibly pedantic to argue the specifics of an application on the natural weapons traits, but it annoys me to no end when I see "Vesk Unarmed" builds trying to exploit the poor wording and stacking Improved Unarmed Strike. Yes, it's easy to house rule that Natural Weapons are a special form of "unarmed strike", in that you are not wielding a manufactured weapon, and therefore do not gain benefit from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat which seems to be written with traditional martial arts concepts in mind. Again, this feels pedantic because at the end of the day unarmed builds, even if they look to exploit the wording loophole of "Natural Weapons", still fall behind everyone else using weapons. I mean, I get it... people love monks. I know I do, but good grief.
Actually it is pretty explicit that Vesk Natural Weapons do benefit from Improved Unarmed Strike. The racial ability is purely a modifier to the Unarmed Strike ability that everyone has. I realize that you disagree with this, but, as you mention yourself, even with the IUS/NW combo, your attacks are still firmly in Basic Weapon damage range. The fluff even mentions various vesk martial arts.
The thing that I think is being overlooked here is in the Improved Unarmed Strike text. In the "Normal" section that lists the default situation, it reads, "You don't threaten any squares with unarmed attacks, and you must have a hand free to make an unarmed attack."
So the designers have to make a choice: is the vesk unarmed attack considered a weapon, or is it considered unarmed? If it is unarmed, you need a hand free and don't threaten without IUS. If it is a weapon, you can't modify your damage with IUS, which needlessly punishes an already disadvantaged attack style, and threatening while both hands are occupied is still somewhat in question. The third option is to explicitly call out the vesk claws as a weapon that can benefit from IUS.
There's also the question of Hammer Fist. "You treat any unarmed attack you make while wearing heavy or powered armor as being made with a battleglove with an item level equal or lower than your soldier level...these unarmed attacks don't benefit from other abilities that apply specifically to unarmed attacks (such as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat)."
Okay, so... Ignoring for a moment that this actually appears to be a mandatory downgrade for many vesk, if it's "any" unarmed attack made, and unarmed attacks can be headbutts, kicks, knee jabs, etc, per the Unarmed Strike weapon entry, does that mean that your "Hammer Fist" could be a different sort of attack than a punch? Does that attack require a hand free, per the "Normal" text of Improved Unarmed Strike (as it cannot, by definition, benefit from IUS)?
It feels like something got left on the cutting room floor
Actually it is pretty explicit that Vesk Natural Weapons do benefit from Improved Unarmed Strike. The racial ability is purely a modifier to the Unarmed Strike ability that everyone has. I realize that you disagree with this, but, as you mention yourself, even with the IUS/NW combo, your attacks are still firmly in Basic Weapon damage range. The fluff even mentions various vesk martial arts.The thing that I think is being overlooked here is in the Improved Unarmed Strike text. In the "Normal" section that lists the default situation, it reads, "You don't threaten any squares with unarmed attacks, and you must have a hand free to make an unarmed attack."
So the designers have to make a choice: is the vesk unarmed attack considered a weapon, or is it considered unarmed? If it is unarmed, you need a hand free and don't threaten without IUS. If it is a weapon, you can't modify your damage with IUS, which needlessly punishes an already disadvantaged attack style, and threatening while both hands are occupied is still somewhat in...
[Edits, lots of edits - I feel the spirit of my reply has already been stated by others]
I guess it is worth clarifying that I question if that interaction of natural weapons and IUS is intended. My hunch is that it is fine, but I feel there are some unintended consequences. This is why I separate the traditional idea of unarmed strikes and natural weapons. I do not allow IUS to be used with natural weapons, even if others feel it is fine.
Again, small problem but given the number of posts that pop up about unarmed strikes clarity feels valuable.