I have a lvl 2 Kasathas Soldier and am wondering since the Kasathas have 4 arms to carry items with, is it possible to carry 2 two-handed weapons with the unwieldy trait such as the tactical doshko and make a full attack with the -4 penalty on each attack?
The description for the unwieldy property states, 'You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can’t attack with it more than once per round, and you can’t use it to make an attack of opportunity.'
So if I had just 1 doshko I would not be able to make a full attack,etc. But since the Kasathas can carry equipment with all 4 hands, I would think they could make a full attack if they were carrying 2 doshkos since each doshko would only be used once, but they would still be unable to attack with either weapon more than once per round or make an AoO with them.
You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack
Correct. But 'an' is singular, so if I only had 1 unwieldy weapon I couldn't make a full attack. The text does not say that you can't use unwieldy weapons as part of a full attack.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
You could have a dozen unwieldy weapons. You can't use any of them as part of a full attack irregardless of if that part of the full attack would be the first attack, the second attack or some other part of the full attack.
Carrying 2 unwieldy weapons won't help if you want to make a full attack. What you can do, though, is carry a regular dosko for when you are making single attacks (like at the end of a charge or just when you're moving) and a different weapon like a flame doshko or a tactical pike in the other that you use for making full attacks.
DanEvans wrote: I have a lvl 2 Kasathas Soldier and am wondering since the Kasathas have 4 arms to carry items with, is it possible to carry 2 two-handed weapons with the unwieldy trait such as the tactical doshko and make a full attack with the -4 penalty on each attack?
The description for the unwieldy property states, 'You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can’t attack with it more than once per round, and you can’t use it to make an attack of opportunity.'
So if I had just 1 doshko I would not be able to make a full attack,etc. But since the Kasathas can carry equipment with all 4 hands, I would think they could make a full attack if they were carrying 2 doshkos since each doshko would only be used once, but they would still be unable to attack with either weapon more than once per round or make an AoO with them.
You cannot use any weapon or weapons with the unwieldy trait as part of a full attack. Doesn't matter if you have 1, 2, or 10 unwieldy weapons, you can't use any of them as part of a full attack. There is no work around.
Bleh. Also can't use Cleave with an Unwieldy weapon. Starting to lose my love of Doshkos.
EC Gamer Guy wrote: Bleh. Also can't use Cleave with an Unwieldy weapon. Starting to lose my love of Doshkos. If you love the Doshko concept but don't want to use an unwieldy weapon, you could choose one of the energy variants. Plasma and Flame doshkos are not unwieldy. :)
EC Gamer Guy wrote: Bleh. Also can't use Cleave with an Unwieldy weapon. Starting to lose my love of Doshkos. Yeah, the moral of the story here seems to be never ever use unwieldy weapons.
The having a secondary attack mode for AoOs (Vesk) negated some of the cons of unwieldy. Not getting CLeave at the cost of the feat seems a bit high.
I will go with Plasma doshko as soon as i get high enough level for it.
You can get a Flame Doshko at first level if you want to use most of your cash on it, though maybe waiting for 2nd level to purchase one isn't a bad idea.
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If the weapon is unwieldy, it cannot be used to make an attack as part of a full attack.
It doesn't matter how many unwieldy weapons you have.
I'm... A little shocked actually...
Not that you can't use them, but that people are trying to find a workaround. The Doshko, tactical is a weapon that does 1d12 at level 1.
No other weapon hits that hard, the closest we have is the level 7 fangblade and that thing is a powered weapon. Thus, the weakness of the Doshko, is that it hits 2 times harder than most other weapons of its level, but can only hit once.
It is game balance, pure and simple.
Yeah, but assuming even an AoO, you're going to do more damage with a weapon that isn't unweildy. The only really great unweildy weapons are ranged, you can't make AoO anyway. The math just doesn't add up for melee unweildy weapons.
You might consider having the kasatha carry one unwieldy weapon and one normal weapon for AoOs, full attacks, and the like. The great thing about four arms is the ability to diversify!
Unwieldy weapons win out on any round where you have to move (and dont have pounce-style abilities), and they're also more relevant vs creatures with good DR.
Kasatha's have the option of skipping quick draw and carrying 2-3 weapon setups at all times, so an unwieldy one can be put into the mix alongside a regular longarm, melee, pistol, whatever: and can allow you to get more damage out on rounds when you move, are staggered, or want to stand up from prone.
Can you full attack? use the regular rifle.
Did you move or take a move action? use the unwieldy weapon which probably does more damage.
They also can be used in conjunction with things like mechanic overcharge, and can be fit into rounds where you want to use a separate move-action ability more comfortably.
The problem with the whole "Well you can just carry around a doshko for all those times you have to move+swing!" is that...WBL simply doesn't let you do that.
On-level weapons cost a lot and it's barely feasible to carry two weapons equal to char level let alone the kasatha golf bag of gun+ doshko+general purpose melee weapon. I honestly can't see any reason to ever use them (unwieldy melee that is, unwieldy guns have some vague niche) besides melee envoy.
Tarik Blackhands wrote: The problem with the whole "Well you can just carry around a doshko for all those times you have to move+swing!" is that...WBL simply doesn't let you do that.
On-level weapons cost a lot and it's barely feasible to carry two weapons equal to char level let alone the kasatha golf bag of gun+ doshko+general purpose melee weapon. I honestly can't see any reason to ever use them (unwieldy melee that is, unwieldy guns have some vague niche) besides melee envoy.
Maybe you cant pick out custom at level gear but what about found loot? the resell price is so minute that you might as well add it to the golf bag, yeah?
Torbyne wrote: Tarik Blackhands wrote: The problem with the whole "Well you can just carry around a doshko for all those times you have to move+swing!" is that...WBL simply doesn't let you do that.
On-level weapons cost a lot and it's barely feasible to carry two weapons equal to char level let alone the kasatha golf bag of gun+ doshko+general purpose melee weapon. I honestly can't see any reason to ever use them (unwieldy melee that is, unwieldy guns have some vague niche) besides melee envoy.
Maybe you cant pick out custom at level gear but what about found loot? the resell price is so minute that you might as well add it to the golf bag, yeah? Between level 1-5 maybe. More or less after that, tiering down to the next available unwieldy relative to you just isn't worth it, even if you scav it. For instance, if I'm L10 I can feasibly have an ultra thin curveblade (3d10) as my main bit of melee. If I scav an advanced doshko (L7), it's not even worth my time due to being unwieldy and only hitting for 2d12. Sure you can say you might luck out and say the GM may drop an Adv Swoop Hammer (L9, 3d10 damage and reach making it a vaguely useful AoO whacker) but that's fairly wishful thinking.
And then the next level, the logic changes again, because you can get a level 11 ultrathin doshko that does 4d12 unwieldy damage. This stuff will happen.
Not particularly. At least going off the assumption that you aren't being showered with plentiful on level (or beyond) gear, there's not a single chance in hell I'm ever going to buy an ultrathin doshko over near any other melee weapon outside CQC envoys. Full attacking just does more work,
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote: Not particularly. At least going off the assumption that you aren't being showered with plentiful on level (or beyond) gear, there's not a single chance in hell I'm ever going to buy an ultrathin doshko over near any other melee weapon outside CQC envoys. Full attacking just does more work, I wouldn't make that assumption. A CR X creature should have level X gear. Crossing mooks near your level should be a pretty common occurrence. That's one of the main reason behind the 10% sell back price. (And the item level system as a whole.) So you can actually encounter and loot usable gear. The Lieutenants and Boss should be packing slight high level gear.
Rather than facing a CR+3 boss with CR-3 gear as was the norm in Pathfinder because NPC wealth per level scaled so much slower than player wealth.
Tarik Blackhands wrote: The problem with the whole "Well you can just carry around a doshko for all those times you have to move+swing!" is that...WBL simply doesn't let you do that.
On-level weapons cost a lot and it's barely feasible to carry two weapons equal to char level let alone the kasatha golf bag of gun+ doshko+general purpose melee weapon. I honestly can't see any reason to ever use them (unwieldy melee that is, unwieldy guns have some vague niche) besides melee envoy.
Tarik Blackhands wrote: Not particularly. At least going off the assumption that you aren't being showered with plentiful on level (or beyond) gear, there's not a single chance in hell I'm ever going to buy an ultrathin doshko over near any other melee weapon outside CQC envoys. Full attacking just does more work, If you look at wealth-per-encounter and wealth-per-level in a vacuum, and try to shop from that (indirectly by allocating NPC loot), it's easy to make the assumption that you're short on quality gear.
But there's a disconnect that often occurs along the way to reach that conclusion:
1. A level 10 NPC is CR9.
2. Encounters often involve CRs that are above APL.
3. While Wealth-Per-Encounter comes up short for at-level gear for an at-level-combatant, remember that if you are fighting a mix of NPCs and monsters without loot, that the Wealth-Per-Encounter over time gets moved onto the NPCs, or into lump-sum quest rewards.
4. Any loot that the party recieves that they will sell at 10% is only factored into WPE/WBL at 10%, any loot they are likely to keep is factored in at full cost. Over time, this means that loot total value should eclipse WBL by some margin.
You can expect some encounters per level to be well above CR+2 wealth-wise, and that's before you try to factor in whether people will sell stuff.
Even if a CR+2 NPC is carrying loot that's 3 levels behind the CR (or 4 behind the NPC's actual level) that's still only 1 behind APL. If you've done encounters with no loot elsewhere, that pads that encounter's loot further and you'll quickly end up with loot=APL.
If you start factoring in CR+3 'boss fights' you can even start handing out loot above level.
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