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On the killing of dragons (spoilers for book 2)


Reign of Winter

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Grand Lodge

Kill the kobold. It's the only way...

Grand Lodge

This is what I decided to go with. The party has an APL of 8. This almost seems under powered for an event that will ascend them to mythic level 2....

Logrivich, Juvenile CR 10
XP 9,600
Male advanced juvenile white dragon Champion 3 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 100, 288)
CE Medium dragon (cold)
Init +11; Senses dragon senses, snow vision; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+4 Dex, +13 natural)
hp 177 (9d12+69)
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +8
Defensive Abilities hard to kill; Immune cold, paralysis, sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft., burrow 30 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 60 ft.; icewalking
Melee unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d3+13 nonlethal) or
bite +13 (1d8+19), 2 claws +13 (1d6+13), 2 wings +8 (1d4+6)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (30-ft cone, 8d4 cold, Reflex DC 20 half), mythic power (9/day, surge +1d6)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +11)
At will—fog cloud
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 25, Dex 18, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +13; CMD 30 (34 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Flyby Attack[M], Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Suppress Vulnerability[M], Vital Strike
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+20 to jump), Bluff +9, Climb +19, Diplomacy +7, Fly +16, Intimidate +14, Perception +16, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +16, Survival +11, Swim +27, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Draconic
SQ amazing initiative, fleet charge[MA], ice shape, master grappler, mythic weapon training (natural)[MA], recuperation, uncanny grapple[MA]
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Amazing Initiative (1/round) (Ex) As a free action, use 1 power to gain an extra standard action (can't be used to cast a spell).
Blindsense (60 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Breath Weapon (30-ft cone, 8d4 cold, Reflex DC 20 half, usable every 1d4 rounds) As a standard action, affect an area with elemental damage (Ref half).
Burrow (30 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Darkvision (120 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Dragon Senses (Ex) See four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light.
Fleet Charge (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power to move speed & attack (+3 bonus, bypass all DR).
Fly (150 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flyby Attack [Mythic] Flyby Attack does not provoke AoOs. 1 MP: move twice fly speed during Flyby Attack.
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Ice Shape (At will) (Su) Can shape ice and snow, as stone shape.
Icewalking (Ex) Climb and move on icy surfaces without penalty & no Acrobatics checks to run or charge on ice.
Immunity to Cold You are immune to cold damage.
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Master Grappler (Ex) You do extra damage with Uncanny Grapple.
Mythic Weapon Training (Natural) (Ex) Add tier to CMD vs. disarm and sunder attempts against selected weapon group.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Recuperation (Ex) Fully heal after 8 hrs. rest, use 1/2 remaining mythic power and 1 hr. to heal half and restore all non-mythic abilities.
Snow Vision (Ex) Vision is not hindered by snowy conditions.
Suppress Vulnerability [Mythic] Lose vulnerability against chose energy type.
Surge (1d6) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Swim (60 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Uncanny Grapple (Ex) You can throw, crush, or swing a creature you are grappling.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.

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The party might have to kill him, but they're more likely to disable him, tie him up, lie to him or trick him (with the player's full knowledge).

They currently intend to observe for a day or two then send in the kobold (bard) as an ambassador to see if he can talk the dragon into a favourable path.

And if Logrovich plays with the kobold like a cat plays with a wounded bird? Well, that solves the problem.

I now need:
- stuff happening in Whitethrone for another two days
- a way for the kobold to reach the top maybe? He's quite sneaky.
- Logrovich's motivations and personality


Yes the Kobold will struggle to get all the way to the top from memory

And I personally think it is more of a "when" Logrivich plays with the Kobold like a cat rather than a "if"

Another concern would be that skipping the tower entirely misses out a boatload of XP. This could be made up with in the city over the next couple of days but it would be tough because trolls give off a lot of XP

I will try and have a think about Whitethrone escapades. The difficulty is that the place is on semi lockdown and if they draw attention to themselves they could have some issues

What is the group makeup?
And how did they resolve the Whitethrone encounters up to this point (Winter Wolves, Forger, Goblins, Mirror men etc?)


We don't bother counting XP in our group (the books give level guides which work well enough), but it would feel weird to them to go up two levels and one mythic tier in quick succession without a suitable fight to show for it.

The entry to White throne had a bunch of fights that were hard to avoid, but from the moment they got their papers they've done nothing but talk, sneak and be cautious.


I'm fine with them choosing to get past Logrovich non-violently if they're determined to, but it shouldn't be easy. They need to feel like they've overcome an obstacle.


Wherever they go - theatre, observatory, etc - I've made a point of pointing out the effects of martial law. There were all of three people at the theatre.


There's plenty of city for them still to explore, if only I can give them hooks for it.

Shadow Lodge

sadie wrote:
- a way for the kobold to reach the top maybe? He's quite sneaky.

Your PCs should've picked up a wand of spider climb as loot as well as at least one potion of the same. If they've forgot, perhaps a generic "I think it's time to sort through all the stuff you've acquired over the weeks" is in order. I need to do this with my players, I think it's been months since th

sadie wrote:
- Logrovich's motivations and personality

Logrivich was brought in by Elvanna. He doesn't even necessarily know who Baba Yaga is, or if he does, only peripherally as the cause of the eternal winter in Irrisen. He was hired into the city guard, and given a command position and a location where he can "keep tabs on the entire city", which he takes seriously. He enjoys music, enough to have Bella imprisoned in his lair so he can hear her sing. He may have caught on that he's being monitored by the White Witches through Granny Nan, and may resent it (although apparently he completely ignores her, and she seems to mostly ignore him, so maybe not).

I very much doubt he resents his role in Whitethrone. He has his own lair, is brought food or can hunt as he desires (he can probably get away with hunting peasants, at the very least), he can request performers to be imprisoned with him, and he gets to increase his treasure hoard. This is in exchange for essentially keeping the peasantry cowed by his threatening presence (which would help feed his ego).

sadie wrote:
- stuff happening in Whitethrone for another two days

Since my party were made up of a fake Stilyagi and his Taldan cohorts, they went sightseeing. I didn't do much to make the martial law oppressive in the main city, and I probably should have. Mostly, they saw mirror men about, performing random checks, and of course the army situated around the market square forest.

The session was almost entirely role-playing, aside from having the quickly suggested in the back, attacking a pair of them in a mostly deserted street as they went to pick up some armor they ordered.

Solveig acted as a go-between for the PCs and the Iron Guard, and set up a meeting in an out-of-the-way square, where the two groups sized each other up and confirmed whether or not they could trust the other side (mostly testing the waters as to how they felt about Baba Yaga vs Elvanna).

I enjoy trying to use the half-page spreads in the books as much as possible, so I set up an encounter where the PCs witnessed a pale elf in red leather get surrounded by mirror men. She was then rescued by four other characters, but this was during the revolt, and you could resolve this differently.

Have you looked through Cities of Golarion? There are some encounter hooks in the Whitethrone entry, which include:

  • a chase across the slippery roof of the Water Gardens
  • being challenged to a fight in the troll coliseum
  • being thrown into the Ratnest
  • someone the PCs are interested in gets killed and sent to the Bonemill along with all their belongings
  • a stilyagi runs to them, hands them an object, and declares that he'll be back for it later, with the guards hot on his trail
  • and others


Group makeup:

One generic human wizard named John Eric. Yes, that player always pulls s+@# like that. He's currently dressed as a stilyagi in a ridiculously loud pimp outfit; the rest of the party are posing as his entourage of foreign weirdos. That makes him the first person people speak to.

One barbarian-type (actually a bloodrager), a black woman from the Mwangi jungle who believes she knows everything (while generally taking creative nonsense). Lady Ilya has offered her a job at the theatre, but she's not interested.

One half-elf cleric-type whose player falls asleep.

One halfling rogue who worked for Lady Argentea.

One dwarf cleric of Grumdannar, with a big axe, who is staggeringly, intolerably *nice* to everyone. Named Gneiss.

Shadow Lodge

Richard Pitt made some side adventures in Whitethrone a while back; you might find some inspiration there.

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Removed some baiting commentary and replies.


Well, it's a bit late now for my suggestion: have the boss monster be some other creature altogether, with the white dragon just being part of the scenery.

Of the suggestions given so far, I guess I like the "just let the kobold talk to him" one the best. As various people have pointed out, the dragon has a pretty cushy berth. He may not be loyal, but he's not going to walk away from what is, frankly a great gig. There's no way he's going to turn or sit out the fight. So, the most likely outcome is that he either kills or maims the kobold. "Make a dragon-worshiping character with no sense or judgment, get eaten by an evil dragon". Cause, effect.

Note that maiming is an option. You could have the dragon not be hungry and just bite off an arm or a leg. "Go forth, and tell the world of the mercy of Logrivich the Great". It's up to you, of course, and really depends on how you think the player would respond.

Doug M.


-- Hm: thinking it over, one other possibility comes to mind. Have the dragon actually be a Bone Devil.

Backstory: There was a Logrivich once, but he turned out to be too damn greedy and uncontrollable. He was snatching people off the streets to eat them and take their stuff, and when Elvanna called him on it, he turned on her and tried to bite. That was the end of Logrivich. But he'd actually been a really effective terror weapon, so a replacement was required. Boom: one Planar Binding later, it's actually a Bone Devil up there in the tower.

Why a Bone Devil?

1) They have constant Fly, and then Invisibility and Major Image all at will. So, all those times Logrivich has been seen flying around town? It's the devil flying through the air, keeping up an illusion.

2) They speak Common and Draconic and have Bluff +17. That gets the devil through most casual encounters. (And it's not like a lot of people want to casually chat with a dragon anyway.)

3) They're bound by the terms of their contract / binding, so they are utterly reliable as long as the binder was competent. Which, for our purposes, we'll assume Elvanna was and is.

4) It's a CR 9 creature, which is pretty much exactly what you want for a party of 5th level PCs with one mythic rank each. If you think that it's still not quite strong enough, give it the Advanced template -- super easy to apply, and boom, now it's CR 10.

5) It's a great replacement for the dragon, because it is comparably challenging and pulls the same trick of flying around the tower, but has a totally different powerset which will not be what the PCs are expecting. It's immune to fire, so all their fire spells are useless! No flyby attack, but Wall of Ice is incredibly useful for clever tactical play. No breath weapon, but wait until your PCs meet "creature takes a FRA, then simply disappears" aka Quickened Invisibility 3x/day.

6) If you feel like playing fair, you can have someone mention the dragon blocking off a street "by creating walls of ice". Wait, can dragons do that? "I dunno..." Or "the dragon used to seize people off the street, but then they say the Queen had a talk with him. Now he hardly talks to anyone any more. Just keeps to himself in that tower..."

And finally, unlike the dragon, the devil can be a recurring enemy: if reduced to low hp, it teleports away to warn the Queen and then licks its wounds. Yes, the PCs will be a lot more powerful soon, but an invisible teleporting creature can be a serious nuisance even for high level characters...

What think you?

Doug M.


...note also that if this PC is still around and alive in Book 4 (aka WHOLE PLANET OF DRAGONS, MANY OF WHOM ARE TRYING TO KILL YOU) then it's going to get even more interesting.

Doug M.

Grand Lodge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

-- Hm: thinking it over, one other possibility comes to mind. Have the dragon actually be a Bone Devil.

Backstory: There was a Logrivich once, but he turned out to be too damn greedy and uncontrollable. He was snatching people off the streets to eat them and take their stuff, and when Elvanna called him on it, he turned on her and tried to bite. That was the end of Logrivich. But he'd actually been a really effective terror weapon, so a replacement was required. Boom: one Planar Binding later, it's actually a Bone Devil up there in the tower.

Why a Bone Devil?

1) They have constant Fly, and then Invisibility and Major Image all at will. So, all those times Logrivich has been seen flying around town? It's the devil flying through the air, keeping up an illusion.

2) They speak Common and Draconic and have Bluff +17. That gets the devil through most casual encounters. (And it's not like a lot of people want to casually chat with a dragon anyway.)

3) They're bound by the terms of their contract / binding, so they are utterly reliable as long as the binder was competent. Which, for our purposes, we'll assume Elvanna was and is.

4) It's a CR 9 creature, which is pretty much exactly what you want for a party of 5th level PCs with one mythic rank each. If you think that it's still not quite strong enough, give it the Advanced template -- super easy to apply, and boom, now it's CR 10.

5) It's a great replacement for the dragon, because it is comparably challenging and pulls the same trick of flying around the tower, but has a totally different powerset which will not be what the PCs are expecting. It's immune to fire, so all their fire spells are useless! No flyby attack, but Wall of Ice is incredibly useful for clever tactical play. No breath weapon, but wait until your PCs meet "creature takes a FRA, then simply disappears" aka Quickened Invisibility 3x/day.

6) If you feel like playing fair, you can have someone mention the dragon blocking off a street "by creating...

Oh... this is so juicy! I may steal this idea! The only thing I don't like is that image disappears once struck.


Dhrakken wrote:
Oh... this is so juicy! I may steal this idea!

You're entirely welcome to it.

Quote:
The only thing I don't like is that image disappears once struck.

"The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately." So, if someone hits while you're concentrating, they do get a Will save for interacting with it, but it doesn't disappear. Remember, the duration is "concentration plus 3 rounds" (plus maybe more rounds if you're an Illusion specialist)? Well so, it only disappears if it's hit when it's post-concentration, and running on autopilot so that you can't make it react.

Doug M.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not that I would suggest adding class levels but I will note that a school familiar for an illusionist school wizard can maintain illusion spells with a duration of concentration for the master... (familiar adepts get school familiar for free without needing to take the feats...) requires a third opposition school but for a monster with class levels...

(Yes as a GM I might pull such a trick on my players...)

Grand Lodge

I only want the illusion to last 3-4 rounds so as to keep the players confused. I want to see if they can figure it out themselves. "What do you mean it's immune to fire" or "I just got poisoned by it's tail?" or "What do you mean I can't use dimensional slide to get away from the big bad?"

My guys have fought bone devils in another campaign so they may catch on quickly but who knows!


That's actually a really interesting idea. The fact that its abilities differ from those expected of a dragon should give them gradual hints that they'll feel cool for deciphering of they do; and it gives a way out for the dragon-loving kobold.

So far they've seen the dragon around town but not interacted with it at all.

The only thing I'd prefer is if the true creature was more draconic, rather than being humanoid. I may need to look at the various undead templates and see if anything fits.


sadie wrote:

That's actually a really interesting idea. The fact that its abilities differ from those expected of a dragon should give them gradual hints that they'll feel cool for deciphering of they do; and it gives a way out for the dragon-loving kobold.

So far they've seen the dragon around town but not interacted with it at all.

The only thing I'd prefer is if the true creature was more draconic, rather than being humanoid. I may need to look at the various undead templates and see if anything fits.

The description of the standard bone devil doesn't preclude the existence of unusual variants. You could just reskin the bone devil to have a more draconic appearance, but that does sort of defeat the point of using a completely different monster to circumvent your kobold problem.

Btw, the bone devil idea is just brilliant and should I ever run RoW I'll be very tempted to use it. Props to Doug.


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Since the party is leaning towards letting the kobold talk first, I think I'm going to keep Logrovich as a dragon. Having his idol be a selfish idiot is just too flavorful to set aside. And his player is resigned to character death if that's where roleplay takes him.

So, falling damage from a 70 foot tower...

Grand Lodge

sadie wrote:

Since the party is leaning towards letting the kobold talk first, I think I'm going to keep Logrovich as a dragon. Having his idol be a selfish idiot is just too flavorful to set aside. And his player is resigned to character death if that's where roleplay takes him.

So, falling damage from a 70 foot tower...

Oh that's going to smart! Give the dragon uncanny grapple and master grappler for added goodness!


I think having the dragon toy with him for a bit, do some damage, and then flick him contemptuously out of the tower is entirely appropriate. "Pffft, too small. Throw it back!"

Bonus points if you can get an NPC to overhear the plan and have that NPC say, "You fool! He'll kill you!"

Let us know how it works out.

Doug M.


The book is written to assume they'll fight their way up. It'll be interesting to see then go up it stealthily, cautiously or politely.


I just had a thought: they still have the slave they bought from the wolf in the Howlings (they haven't agreed when and how to release him). And they haven't been particularly secretive when discussing their plans. If they take too long working out what they're going to do, he can slip away and tattle on them.


sadie wrote:
The book is written to assume they'll fight their way up. It'll be interesting to see then go up it stealthily, cautiously or politely.

If the party includes good-aligned characters, drop some hints as to what's going on with, you know, the child-eating witch and all that. (Or just smack them upside the head with it, if they're being a bit dim.)

If they skip it entirely, you may need to spackle in some other encounters to make up the lost XP.

Doug M.


They haven't seen the road of skulls yet. They're playing Whitethrone way too cautiously.


Next session down, and they're still playing it too cautiously, but finally seeing more of the city. They've scouted out the clock tower from outside, contemplated poisoning the dragon, had a bath (reluctantly, in the case of the dwarf), got an invitation to the arena, and are about to be contacted again by the Heralds. They still aren't sold on the wisdom of taking on a dragon.

So for next week I need the Heralds to suggest a plan that isn't just "you go kill dragon now".


Watching with interest!

Doug M.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

This reminds me of my own group. They were o so scared of the dragon. Saying things like: "We are not supposed to attack him now! He is a foe for a higher level!"
The advantage was that they did tackle the whole tower first.


If they keep hesitating, it may be time for events to move on without them. The Heralds aren't going to wait forever. Suggestions on how the revolution might start without the PCs?


They met Lady Tetra, Elvanna's youngest daughter, who's supervising the construction of the Iron Fang, a monument to Elvanna (this is from Cities Of Golarion). Their next meeting with the Herald handler is at the Hammerdown Fountain, not far from there. I was thinking of having her assassinated, and then the killer runs past the party, says "hold this for me please" and shoves a wrapped up bundle into their hands. When they open it, they find a crossbow inside.

Of course, they need to be able to survive the encounter, so I can't just throw the entire Winter Guard AND Logrovich at them.


In case you're wondering why they're meeting the Heralds in weird places (the Crooked House, the Hammerdown Fountain), it's because their immediate response to finding our about the Shrine Of The Everbloom was to report it to the sodding police.

That's what I have to work with.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If your party isn’t hooked by the revolution (if they reported the shrine to the police it doesn’t seem that way) then an alternative might be focus on the fight vs the fey. Sounds like you have a party that may be tending a bit evil (or at least not on the side of chaotic food revolutionaries) so unless they have totally blown this as a possible storyline perhaps they can approach getting close to the hut via a different means - instead of relying upon the heralds as a distraction for much of the guards perhaps the party tries to ally themselves to the guard in some capacity - and bluff (or not bluff at all) their way into “clear the fey from the market square” duty. They can then betray the guards when they reach the hut (perhaps due to the mantle that they have - which remember most people won’t be able to detect - but presumably the hut will recognize them...

To keep them on track XP and treasure wise either create some encounters in the city they have to complete to earn their way up to clearing the market square duty or just boost the fey involvement a bit further and add in some loot. (The would therefore miss some of the fun encounters in the tower - but potentially could still have some Roleplaying opportunities there just not as invaders but perhaps as reporting to duty with the dragon as a their captain....

I’m still on book one with my new group but am planning on focusing heavily on the fey throughout the AP - so may be shifting things around a bit in book 2 myself to deemphasisze a bit of the whole trigger revolution and more set up a three way power struggle - where the current major forces are the Queen and her allies vs some strong Fey (eldest?) who are seeking to take the opportunity to capture the hut and learn baba yaga’s secrets with the party representing Baba Yaga and her allies who are somewhat of an underdog in the struggle early on. (I may even introduce a fourth group of good fey and/or divine servants who may seek to aid the party and later to steer them away from their seeming destiny as seevants of Baba Yaga and towards redemption (ie eventually seeking the means to confront Baba Yaga - ie continuing the campaign past book six. )) in any case I’ll be adding some elements of this struggle into all parts of the AP but especially the end of book 2 and books 3 & 4.


sadie wrote:
They met Lady Tetra, Elvanna's youngest daughter, who's supervising the construction of the Iron Fang, a monument to Elvanna (this is from Cities Of Golarion). Their next meeting with the Herald handler is at the Hammerdown Fountain, not far from there. I was thinking of having her assassinated, and then the killer runs past the party, says "hold this for me please" and shoves a wrapped up bundle into their hands. When they open it, they find a crossbow inside.

Jumpstart a romantic relationship between a revolutionary and one of the PCs. I don't know if your players go for that sort of thing, but there should be at least one who is open to it. In a perfect world it would be a PC with respectable Cha, but this isn't strictly necessary. If you're worried about how to make this seem plausible, the old "roll some dice behind the screen, look surprised" trick works way more often than it should. "And then, Nadia comes and sits next to you..."

Of course, this is the leadup to Nadia being killed by the Winter Guard and/or the dragon. If you can have her bravely rush in front of her PC lover and get killed by frost breath, so much the better. Make it part of a general "assault on the rebel headquarters" scenario in which a bunch of other people die, so it's not too glaringly obvious you're targeting poor Nadia. That said, don't be afraid to work it. Have Nadia give her beloved PC her ring of cold resistance "because I am afraid for you". (So much the more ironic when the dragon turns her to an ice statue, alas.) Have her make plans for the future -- "when this land is free, you'll be a knight in the New Republic. We'll get some land, maybe build a little keep. If you want to go adventuring, we can be on the border..."

And then have the bad guys kill her mercilessly. And have her last words be "Freedom! My love..." If the player isn't on track to help the Revolution after that, then he should give up this whole tabletop RPG business and go back to playing Grand Theft Auto.

Doug M.


Romance is unlikely to work, I'm afraid. Partly because I don't think any of the players would play along with it, and partly because there really isn't anyone the party have met and trust enough to get close to. They sent Nadya through the portal, they're suspicious of the Heralds, and they don't have a high opinion of any of the Jadwiga they've met.

Romance takes time to develop. It needs to be done carefully over the course of months of game sessions, to feel organic rather than forced. And to kill that character off would be to spend a very big credit for emotional payoff. Insta-romance isn't going to work for the situation they're already in.


I can still kill somebody off, gruesomely if possible. It might help to underline the "dragon: bad" aspect.


Rycaut wrote:
chaotic food revolutionaries

FOOD FIGHT!


Fair point about romance growing organically. Okay, you're right --default to gruesomely killing someone they know. Make that person minor but likable -- Yuri, who keeps challenging the PCs to minor games of skill or chance, keeps losing, and then just smiles and pays up and is a really good loser. Minor but positive interactions, type of thing.

Then the dragon snatches them up and tears them to shreds in midair, body pars raining down.

Doug M.

Shadow Lodge

sadie wrote:

In case you're wondering why they're meeting the Heralds in weird places (the Crooked House, the Hammerdown Fountain), it's because their immediate response to finding our about the Shrine Of The Everbloom was to report it to the sodding police.

That's what I have to work with.

Wow. Solveig's still willing to work with them after they reported her hideout to the authorities?


She doesn't know it was them.

So about those trust issues...


Kill the kobold player, the group will thank you.

Another option would be to have the have the dragon eat the kobold and now the group will quickly slay it and pull the kobold out from the dragon.


Thunderlord wrote:
Kill the kobold player, the group will thank you.

Gotta say, that does sound like a reasonable option.

Quote:
Another option would be to have the have the dragon eat the kobold and now the group will quickly slay it and pull the kobold out from the dragon.

Dragons don't have Swallow Whole, though...

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Thunderlord wrote:
Kill the kobold player, the group will thank you.
Gotta say, that does sound like a reasonable option.

Seems a little extreme to me. He's just roleplaying his character, that's not really a capital offence.


sadie wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Thunderlord wrote:
Kill the kobold player, the group will thank you.
Gotta say, that does sound like a reasonable option.
Seems a little extreme to me. He's just roleplaying his character, that's not really a capital offence.

Sometimes, sometimes not. If one player's RPing is messing up the game for the whole party...

Point of clarification: making things difficult is not, by itself, messing up the game. Sometimes difficulty can be interesting and fun, and dealing with clashing PC objectives is definitely part of the game. A player is only messing up the game when they are making the game less fun for the other players. Nobody gets to be a fun vampire. But if everyone is having fun, then never mind -- the game is going fine.

(Note that "everyone" includes you. If your players are having fun but you're not, recalibrate.)

Doug M.


I really hope I haven't given the impression that this player is a problem, because he isn't. Not even slightly.

The heart of roleplaying games, what sets them apart from board games and computer games, is the freedom to do the unexpected. The books may anticipate things going a certain way, and the GM may assume the players will act a certain way, but ultimately the players can choose to do whatever they want. Being a GM is hard because you have to be able to handle the unknown. And sometimes the players go so far off script that the GM has to scramble to keep the illusion of the world going. It's

The situation I'm in isn't about a problem player; it's about a party that's done the unexpected. They came into the city with a lot more mistrust than the book assumed, were cautious about being seen or making contacts, and didn't just accept the mission they were given. "Hi, I've never met you before, but my character sheet says I'm a good guy. Can you go kill a dragon for me?" And you know, they're right - or at least, they aren't wrong for their unique characters in their situation. They're all playing the game right - including the kobold.

They don't have a responsibility to follow my version of the plot, or the book's version. They do have a geass over them to work towards freeing Baba Yaga, but it doesn't specify how they should go about doing that. As GM it's my job to find a way for that to work. So I'm here asking for advice because the players are off script and I need to steer them back in a way that's natural and satisfying.

It might be that the kobold will die soon. But that won't be punishment for a bad player, it'll just be a natural consequence of his actions. And if done right, it can contribute to the game being fun for everyone.

Dark Archive

Either make the dragon undead (so the kobold player can exterminate this abomination) or a construct that looks and works like a dragon or someone with "Form of the Dragon II". ;-)


Next session down, and they wasted it fighting and losing money in the arena


[pained wince / expression of profound fellow-DM sympathy]

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