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The answer should be no to both situations. Even though you are applying your armor spike damage after the grapple, you are not using the armor spikes to make the grapple. There is a specific list of maneuvers that are made with a weapon. Typically trip, disarm, sunder, and sometimes reposition. Those maneuvers get to add the enhancement bonus, and if you have weapon finesse you can use it when performing the maneuver with a weapon. Grapples are not performed with a weapon typically, and armor spikes do nothing to change that.
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I said not performed typically. Garrote and mancatchers change that. Armor spikes do not.
You don't have to take my word for it. There's an FAQ.
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
Disarm, sunder, trip. (Reposition comes in with whips when you have the ability to use them to make a reposition maneuver).
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Also =/ you're saying exactly the same thing my GM is on the second sentence. The way the data reads on armor spikes, it's not applied AFTER the grapple, but as an inherent part of it after the grapple roll, just like doing actual grapple damage on maintaining.
If you maintain a grapple and deal damage with a weapon, you don't add that weapon's enhancement bonuses to the grapple check. Just to the damage. Armor spikes work the same way.
Also, there's disagreement about whether or not you get to roll the armor spikes damage anytime other than when you are maintaining a grapple to damage. I don't know the answer to that, because the rule isn't clear. There's a recent thread trying to get an FAQ to figure that part out.
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Join the other thread and add your voice (and an FAQ click) to the discussion. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is to that part. Your reading of it seems consistent with the wording in the item, but the ability that grants is inconsistent with the cost of the item. It's essentially constrict for 50 gold. Which doesn't seem right to a lot of people. Thus the multiple threads over the years questioning it, including the one I linked. Since I mostly play PFS and would never know how someone would rule it, I got frustrated enough with the item I just redesigned the character to not wear armor at all. Probably an overreaction, but it solved other issues with the build (level of Unchained Monk).
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12 days is not a necro (EDIT: More like breath of life!). Especially on a thread that was trying to get FAQ hits. But I've linked to this thread over there. It does serve to emphasize that the question comes up a lot.
I didn't mean to imply Zarius was wrong to post thoughts here. Just trying to help pool them into one place in hopes of getting an FAQ on the matter.
Literally, I want to know if the enhancement bonus on a set of armor spikes would affect the attack roll of a grapple check. My GM is saying no, but I'm not finding any rules that support either side. The thing HE'S getting hung up on is that he doesn't want to accept that the part of the weapon description that says "(You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)" isn't clarifying its use as a weapon on its own, and his argument seems to be insane to me after that.
Actually, the REAL question I want answered is if having proficiency with armor spikes and having Weapon Finesse would let you apply your dex to grapples instead of your str, but this is where the argument ended up going before I had a chance to ask that part.
No, you can't use Dex to your Grapple roll because Grapple attempts are made with either your own limbs (hands usually), or with weapons that have the Grapple special quality (of which you can't apply it to Armor Spikes or any other weapon via the Weapon Modifications of Adventurer's Armory 2). Since the former is not a Light Weapon (or a weapon of any type really), and the weapons with the Grapple special quality can't be Finessed, the only recourse is the Agile Maneuvers feat to get what you want out of it. If you wanted Dex to Damage with them as well, only 3 Levels of UCRogue will get you there.
As for Armor Spikes being their own weapon, they are, no questions asked. They're listed on the Weapons table, with their own weapon entry and description. If that doesn't make them their own weapon, then quite frankly every single item listed on the Weapons table isn't its own weapon since their format is identical.
There was a similar argument about this with Shields being shoehorned into Off-hand weapons, and there was a FAQ stating that Shields can be either Primary or Off-hand (though they only listed Off-hand out of some notion that Shields are typically used as Off-hand weapons). The same concept would apply here as well, since there's nothing in the rules that states Armor Spikes can't be Primary weapons.
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If you're tiny you can use dex to grapple. Which gets silly when a druid squirrel can judoflip a Red dragon.
Then again, the concept that said red dragon hit a human and they're not a smear of red paste is kinda silly
I thought Grapple was restricted by size, which is one thing that makes Tetoris more palatable for Grappling compared to other classes?
I thought Grapple was restricted by size, which is one thing that makes Tetoris more palatable for Grappling compared to other classes?
Trip has a size requirement. Bull rush has a size requirement. I don't see one in grapple.
Ah, it's for the Grab special ability they get. Nevermind.
I want to know if the enhancement bonus on a set of armor spikes would affect the attack roll of a grapple check
No. You do not make the grapple check with the armor spikes. You make it with your whole body. I think the mancatcher would be the only item where you'd add the enhancement bonus on the grapple check.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features
Tuesday, September 27, 2011