I dunno, I like the vibe of "I'm so good at this that it feels like magic, even though it isn't." Feels appropriate for a Rogue.
I dunno, I like the vibe of "I'm so good at this that it feels like magic, even though it isn't." Feels appropriate for a Rogue.
I don't get that vibe from that ability, especially since it references a spell in terms of effects you can generate, which is basically emulating magic and slapping an (EX) descriptor onto it to try and shift it away from that focus. It's like slapping a "Definitely not a Lich" bumper sticker on the robes of an Undead Cleric.
I'm toying with a "pet" class that learn "tricks" from creatures they do not understand. They can step sideways in some 4th or 5th dimension and take a shortcut, like dogs or cats can learn to open doors. If it's not a class, but a background, they could learn these tricks, then pass them on to others. What pets learn as tricks can be learned as fighter feats.
Some people objected to the Neraph Charge because it was magical. It was not. It was a hyperdimensional trick that made it impossible to set a weapon against the charge.
I don't get that vibe from that ability, especially since it references a spell in terms of effects you can generate, which is basically emulating magic and slapping an (EX) descriptor onto it to try and shift it away from that focus. It's like slapping a "Definitely not a Lich" bumper sticker on the robes of an Undead Cleric.
The issue with not doing a Limited Wish type methodology is that it means you have to write down hundreds of different abilities for every single skill and that's no where near worth the effort.
I don't get that vibe from that ability, especially since it references a spell in terms of effects you can generate, which is basically emulating magic and slapping an (EX) descriptor onto it to try and shift it away from that focus. It's like slapping a "Definitely not a Lich" bumper sticker on the robes of an Undead Cleric.The issue with not doing a Limited Wish type methodology is that it means you have to write down hundreds of different abilities for every single skill and that's no where near worth the effort.
And that's a major problem with trying to make something that's not magic to rival magic: It's much more difficult to quantify since Magic is an already-existing system.
The fact that we have to default to it to state how other abilities function should tell you just how much of the game relies on Magic being in it (i.e. 80% of all the material published), and it should also tell you just how difficult it is to create a system that rivals magic, but isn't the same or as quantified as magic, when it's so much easier to just default to effects that basically function like magic, but isn't actually magic.
So you prefer to just give up?
No, what I'm saying is that more effort needs to be put into giving martials different abilities besides reskinning magic spells, otherwise you're left with an Ancient Aliens concept ("I'm not saying it's magic, but it's basically magic").
Paladin's Lay On Hands and Barbarian Rage Powers (Spell Sunder) are prime examples of doing just that without having to default to spell effects.
Unfortunately, homebrewers do not have time to pump out seven books worth of abilities for martials that are all formatted completely differently to spells (especially since even ToB/PoW stuff is apparently formatted to much like magic for some even though they act completely differently to spells).
I don't get that vibe from that ability, especially since it references a spell in terms of effects you can generate, which is basically emulating magic and slapping an (EX) descriptor onto it to try and shift it away from that focus. It's like slapping a "Definitely not a Lich" bumper sticker on the robes of an Undead Cleric.The issue with not doing a Limited Wish type methodology is that it means you have to write down hundreds of different abilities for every single skill and that's no where near worth the effort.And that's a major problem with trying to make something that's not magic to rival magic: It's much more difficult to quantify since Magic is an already-existing system.
The fact that we have to default to it to state how other abilities function should tell you just how much of the game relies on Magic being in it (i.e. 80% of all the material published), and it should also tell you just how difficult it is to create a system that rivals magic, but isn't the same or as quantified as magic, when it's so much easier to just default to effects that basically function like magic, but isn't actually magic.
The other significant hurdle is that so much stuff gets covered under magic. A wizard can potentially do nearly anything that can be imagined, because if someone imagines it, they write it into a spell. Even long held divisions within magic often get blurred as time goes on and designers/writers want to create new effects.
For example, if you take out just a couple of spells (like Knock), suddenly there's an increased reason why you need someone with Disable Device in the party, giving a non-magical character a niche to fill.
No, what I'm saying is that more effort needs to be put into giving martials different abilities besides reskinning magic spells, otherwise you're left with an Ancient Aliens concept ("I'm not saying it's magic, but it's basically magic").
Paladin's Lay On Hands and Barbarian Rage Powers (Spell Sunder) are prime examples of doing just that without having to default to spell effects.
Fighters can get both of these abilities.
The other significant hurdle is that so much stuff gets covered under magic. A wizard can potentially do nearly anything that can be imagined, because if someone imagines it, they write it into a spell. Even long held divisions within magic often get blurred as time goes on and designers/writers want to create new effects.For example, if you take out just a couple of spells (like Knock), suddenly there's an increased reason why you need someone with Disable Device in the party, giving a non-magical character a niche to fill.
This is fine for Society Play where you limit access to things To promote diverse group mechanics, teamwork, and spotlight sharing; but in a homebrew sandbox type setting a GM/ designer should shift focus to giving the PCs more options to act in more varied ways. This helps fulfill the second major premise of facilitating the desired hero experience for a PC.
Fighters can get both of these abilities.No, what I'm saying is that more effort needs to be put into giving martials different abilities besides reskinning magic spells, otherwise you're left with an Ancient Aliens concept ("I'm not saying it's magic, but it's basically magic").
Paladin's Lay On Hands and Barbarian Rage Powers (Spell Sunder) are prime examples of doing just that without having to default to spell effects.
Even if they could, the idea is that they need class features as defining and powerful as those without it being the same thing.
Let me spoil the whole argument for you.
Fighters cannot cast Vancian spells.
They can perform rituals, to get magic powers, that are not even spells.
They can perform incantations and magic gestures that are spells, but non vancian. If successful, they draw magic power outside them to the target.
They can learn to do things that look like magic from hyper evolved beings. The more powerful outsiders, aberrations, and yes, aliens, think "magic" is a absurd concept.
Weather or not how it works is explained in your game is up to the GM.
How it works is all box text and it doesn't have to be correct.
Do you know exactly how your computer works? You already know how to make it work, and that's all you need.
You can convolute the Fighters getting magic argument all you like. All you're doing is increasing the depths of which people have to dig in order to connect the dots of giving non-magical classes spell effects in an attempt to close the Caster/Martial Disparity gap.
To answer the title question, some reasons are good, but not good enough.
Even in pathfinder society play, if a module gives a character a magic power, then it's official.
The GM or developer allows a fighter to get a magic power, then they get a magic power.
Where does Pathfinder define what is or isn't magic? Probably nowhere. Birds fly without magic. Magnet trains levitate without magic. Having wings, gills, claws, or fangs is not magic. It's conceivable that creatures could move through time and space like a Thall without magic.
(Dr Who, Hero's Gate)
