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Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Format: incorporeal; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Incorporeal: Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects, as well as all force effects.
None of the above list a form of supernatural flight. As a incorporeal creature has no weight it can conceivably walk on air, but that is not spelled out, so it is an opinion, not a rule.
on the other hand the creature wings are as insubstantial as its body, so they can't meaningfully interact with the air to make it fly.And it has a strength of 0, so it can't lift its body if, for some reason, it become corporeal or it had to use its wing to fly.
All included, I think that it is always a form of supernatural flight.
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Magic jar: tricky.
It say: " You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities."
Supernatural flight isn't necessarily a mental ability.
As I see it, for a shadow demon it will be an effect of its incorporeal body, not an ability that it can activate in a new body
As a GM you should evaluate what is a mental or physical ability dependent on the creature body type or form when the creature with majic jar take up a new body.
Logics would say that if an incorporeal creature wasn't able to float around it would fall from the ground. But rules say otherwise, so I guess incorporeals can choose wether to go through solid objects or not.
Phantoms (the Spiritualist class's buddy) don't get incorporeal flight until level 9. So, not all incorporeal creatures have flight.
That ability gives them a fly speed of 40 with good maneuverability. Other they move at 30 feet.
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Phantoms (the Spiritualist class's buddy) don't get incorporeal flight until level 9. So, not all incorporeal creatures have flight.That ability gives them a fly speed of 40 with good maneuverability. Other they move at 30 feet.
Looks to me like they only have a land speed until then. I don't see any mention in either the Spiritualist class writeup or the Incorporeal property that says you can automatically fly.
Looks to me like they only have a land speed until then. I don't see any mention in either the Spiritualist class writeup or the Incorporeal property that says you can automatically fly.Phantoms (the Spiritualist class's buddy) don't get incorporeal flight until level 9. So, not all incorporeal creatures have flight.That ability gives them a fly speed of 40 with good maneuverability. Other they move at 30 feet.
Incorporeal creatures can't be supported by the land(a solid material) so they can't walk. They also are not affected by water. They also can not fall. Despite it not being officially listed the only option they have is flight.
edit: changed "can" to "can't"
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Well, being supported by the ground is a funny thing. Let's look at what the rules actually say:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
So they can't fall through the floor. Normal walking is based on foot-floor pressure vs. gravity, neither of which is applicable to incorporeal creatures, so if an incorporeal creature seems to be going through the motions of walking, that's an appearance, but there has to be something else making it work.
So like just about every incorporeal creature except phantoms has a fly speed and this is not a problem. But for phantoms we're left to wonder.
I think it's a bit of a leap to go from "they can't fall through the floor" to "they can fly from level 1, even though they explicitly gain that ability only at level 9".
I agree with you that it would make the most sense that what happens at level 9 is simply an upgrade in the quality of flight. But it's entirely possible that Paizo didn't want to create flying phantoms at level 1 and that they were intentionally ground-bound.
I guess how phantoms move would be a fair FAQ candidate.
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Well, being supported by the ground is a funny thing. Let's look at what the rules actually say:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
So they can't fall through the floor. Normal walking is based on foot-floor pressure vs. gravity, neither of which is applicable to incorporeal creatures, so if an incorporeal creature seems to be going through the motions of walking, that's an appearance, but there has to be something else making it work.
So like just about every incorporeal creature except phantoms has a fly speed and this is not a problem. But for phantoms we're left to wonder.
I think it's a bit of a leap to go from "they can't fall through the floor" to "they can fly from level 1, even though they explicitly gain that ability only at level 9".
I agree with you that it would make the most sense that what happens at level 9 is simply an upgrade in the quality of flight. But it's entirely possible that Paizo didn't want to create flying phantoms at level 1 and that they were intentionally ground-bound.
I guess how phantoms move would be a fair FAQ candidate.
I would treat that as the spell Air walk. More than a FAQ it need a errata.
Probably the writer assumed that there was something in the description of the incorporeal ability about how they move along.The writers of the new classes sometime assume a bit too much.
I recently had a related question:
Does severe wind affect an incorporeal creature?
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I guess how phantoms move would be a fair FAQ candidate.I would treat that as the spell Air walk. More than a FAQ it need a errata.
Probably the writer assumed that there was something in the description of the incorporeal ability about how they move along.
The writers of the new classes sometime assume a bit too much.
I'd be happiest with them answering it in FAQ now, and applying errata in the next printing.
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Thanks for the replies, everyone. I think I'm gonna run it that the demon loses its inherent flight when it uses magic jar. It seems like the flight is intended to be based on its bat wing form (or at least its shadow form, which I think is the flavor for the sprint ability), and also my party probably needs every advantage they can get.
Well, being supported by the ground is a funny thing. Let's look at what the rules actually say:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.
(...)
Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
So they can't fall through the floor. Normal walking is based on foot-floor pressure vs. gravity, neither of which is applicable to incorporeal creatures, so if an incorporeal creature seems to be going through the motions of walking, that's an appearance, but there has to be something else making it work.
So like just about every incorporeal creature except phantoms has a fly speed and this is not a problem. But for phantoms we're left to wonder.
I think it's a bit of a leap to go from "they can't fall through the floor" to "they can fly from level 1, even though they explicitly gain that ability only at level 9".
I agree with you that it would make the most sense that what happens at level 9 is simply an upgrade in the quality of flight. But it's entirely possible that Paizo didn't want to create flying phantoms at level 1 and that they were intentionally ground-bound.
I guess how phantoms move would be a fair FAQ candidate.
They wouldn't be grounded. All they would have to do is jump if they are actually moving by walking, and since they can't fall they could stay in the air. If they can actually interact with the ground there is no reason they can't jump.
Once they are in the air how do they move down if they can't fly down and can't fall?Then there is the issue of climbing which they cant do because they cant interact with the wall by pushing off of it to move up, so how they go up walls?
Do they get left behind? The list of potential issues goes on.
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They wouldn't be grounded. All they would have to do is jump if they are actually moving by walking, and since they can't fall they could stay in the air. If they can actually interact with the ground there is no reason they can't jump.
Once they are in the air how do they move down if they can't fly down and can't fall?Then there is the issue of climbing which they cant do because they cant interact with the wall by pushing off of it to move up, so how they go...
Even when they fly there are issues for incorporeal creatures. They are unaffected by gravity so there is no reason for them to be slowed when they go up or get extra movement when they go down.
If we use real world logic for them every direction is the same for movement costs.