Magic armor and gauntlets

[Heretic_CrossbowmaN]

Hi all!
Rules say that every suit of heavy armor (except breastplates) have a pair of gauntlets that can be used as a weapon.
Do these gauntlets count as magic weapon if an armor is magic?
If it is a mithral full-plate could they be used to overcome DR of some creatures?

[Fabian Stretton]

Hmm - I'm no Pathfinder expert, but it seems reasonable to me that if you are reduced to punching your target, magical/mithral Armour would count as a magical/mithral weapon. (The magical part may be arguable, but the mithral part shouldn't be). Just remembering that the following applies:
- Attack of Opportunity for unarmed combat still applies.
- There is no Plus to the gauntlets regardless of the Armour bonus.
- Punching only does non-lethal damage (even in gauntlets) unless they are spiked.

Hope that assists

[Vidmaster7]

I think that the enchantment on armor only applies to its ac and it would require a different enchantment to make the gauntlets count as +3 weapons but magical materials would still apply.

So i'm agreeing with Fabian.

[Bob Bob Bob]

No and no.

There's two different interpretations, but both end with no.

The first (and strictest) is that you're not getting gauntlets like your armor, just bog-standard gauntlets (steel). It's like a baker's dozen. A freebie thrown in at the end.

The second (and more permissive) is that you do get fancy gauntlets that match your armor but they still don't do anything special as weapons. They're not even masterwork weapons. They're masterwork/magic/mithril armor and thus give no bonuses of any kind to being used as a weapon. You could absolutely pay extra to get them made masterwork/magical/mithril but by default they wouldn't be. We already have something similar in shields, which can be used for both attack and defense but explicitly need to be masterwork/enchanted separately.

I've been over this before. The short answer is that adamantine ruins balance (specifically, a medium adamantine armor (10,000 gp) would give you two 3,000 gp weapons for free). Now that I look, Elysian Bronze is worse (2,000 gp armor, two free 1,000 gp weapons). The slightly longer version also includes "Are gauntlets part of the armor? Would you lose AC if you took them off?" and rampant pedantry. The "fluff why" given was that a gauntlet is probably not 100% made of the special material and if it's not designed as a weapon the striking surface probably isn't made of the special material. Again, you could absolutely pay them to do it though.

Edit: And I had more but now that this is in rules I'll just leave the rules bit.

[Vidmaster7]

Hmm that is interesting I didn't think about the material part of it. What do you think about someone maybe body slamming someone in adamantium plate do you think it would get through if they had a dr x/adamantium?

[James Risner]

Heretic_CrossbowmaN wrote:

Hi all!

Rules say that every suit of heavy armor (except breastplates) have a pair of gauntlets that can be used as a weapon.
Do these gauntlets count as magic weapon if an armor is magic?
If it is a mithral full-plate could they be used to overcome DR of some creatures?

No and no

Obviously full plate isn't a 2 for one deal that's cheaper. Magic weapons cost 2x armor. So clearly a +1 full plate costing 2,650 gp doesn't include 1,000 gp for armor and 2,000 gp for weapon.

Also a gauntlet is an unarmed attack. There is currently no direct rule stating how special material gauntlets are handled. There is likely an upcoming FAQ (we have hints it's coming) on gauntlets. The hint is that +1 gauntlets can not be created and the way to do so is to utilize a Amulet of Mighty Fists to enhance your gauntlet attacks.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Hmm that is interesting I didn't think about the material part of it. What do you think about someone maybe body slamming someone in adamantium plate do you think it would get through if they had a dr x/adamantium?

I think you could absolutely use adamantine armor to bypass dr/adamantine... as an improvised weapon. Just take it off and wallop someone with it. I don't know how a body slam would translate mechanically (it's not an unarmed strike as far as I can tell and it's normally represented by a slam attack) but yes, you are absolutely wearing pieces of adamantine that you can somehow hit someone with. Everything after that would be GM rulings, interpretations, and a bunch of different opinions. Do you have to take off the armor to do it? All of the armor or part of the armor (and does that lower the AC)? Things like that.

So for the second (more permissive) interpretation, the gauntlet would absolutely have adamantine in it. The question would then be whether you could actually hit someone with the adamantine part and whether it would do enough damage to be considered a weapon. Which is, as I already said, something that will end up falling to a GM to decide. "How much does this improvised weapon do when used this very specific way" is technically a rules question but one which has no real answer. Just a lot of opinions.

[Vidmaster7]

Yeah I agree with your interpretation bob x3 you have converted me.

[Matthew Downie]

My preferred interpretation is that adamantine armor uses lower grade adamantine than adamantine weapons. If someone in adamantine full plate gets the 'ignore hardness lower than 20' applied to their entire body, they could basically run through a mithral wall.

[Vidmaster7]

Matthew Downie wrote:

My preferred interpretation is that adamantine armor uses lower grade adamantine than adamantine weapons. If someone in adamantine full plate gets the 'ignore hardness lower than 20' applied to their entire body, they could basically run through a mithral wall.

That is an interesting point. I would fluff wise just say its because of the forging process or some such. forged to sharp or forged to be hard maybe. I would not of thought to try and run through a wall wearing adamantium.

[Blymurkla]

Fabian Stretton wrote:

- Punching only does non-lethal damage (even in gauntlets) unless they are spiked

No. Gauntlet lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes.

The thing with spiked gauntlets are that you make armed attacks with them, i.e. you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when using them.

At least, that's how I've understood the rules.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Heretic_CrossbowmaN wrote:

Hi all!

Rules say that every suit of heavy armor (except breastplates) have a pair of gauntlets that can be used as a weapon.
Do these gauntlets count as magic weapon if an armor is magic?
If it is a mithral full-plate could they be used to overcome DR of some creatures?

No. All they do is turn your 1d3 +str modifier non lethal unarmed attack into a lethal one. You'll still be provoking AOO's if you don't have the improved unarmed strike feat. And you'll still be dealing with DR as normal.

[Heretic_CrossbowmaN]

Thanks to all! Now I think that i will use a rule that gauntlets are not enchanted and if the wearer wants to use them as weapons he must enchant them separately from armor with full enchantment cost.

Interesting thing that i found is advanced armor training option that says

Steel Headbutt (Ex): While wearing medium or heavy armor, a fighter can deliver a headbutt with his helm as part of a full attack action. This headbutt is in addition to his normal attacks, and is made using the fighter’s base attack bonus – 5. A helmet headbutt deals 1d3 points of damage if the fighter is wearing medium armor, or 1d4 points of damage if he is wearing heavy armor (1d2 and 1d3, respectively, for Small creatures), plus an amount of damage equal to 1/2 the fighter’s Strength modifier. Treat this attack as a weapon attack made using the same special material (if any) as the armor. The armor’s enhancement bonus does not modify the headbutt attack, but the helm can be enchanted as a separate weapon.

So i think that gauntlets will count as mithral to overcome DR/silver. But anyway, their wearer isn't proficient with unarmed strike and he will provoke attacks of opportunity while using them.
Maybe it will be incorrect by rules but seems logical.
Anyway, 1d3+STR damage for 7-th level warrior is not a big advantage even if it allows him to bypass DR :)
And it isn't written in rules that armor comes with a set of STEEL gauntlents, it is said "with a set of gauntlets". So i think that mithral fullplate comes with a mithral gauntlets. :)

But maybe they are not "steel" nor "mithral" gauntlets but only "gauntlets". In that case yes, it would not overcome DR i think. Main interest for me was enchantment bonus. It's absolutely clear now that gauntlets are not enchanted as a weapons.

[Chess Pwn]

well also be aware that the rules for gauntlets are unclear and were going to be clarified soon about 6 months ago. So they potentially can't be enhanced in their own right but maybe works with AoMF. The only ones who know are the PDT and herolab.

[graystone]

IMO, I think the gauntlets are meant to be the same material as the armor. I also think that no one at the time thought of the ramifications of free special material weapons. Add to that, as Chess Pwn brings up, gauntlets are a mess rules wise so it's up in the air how 'weapon-like' they are.

How you figure out these disparity is up to each group at the moment. Hopefully we get an FAQ/errata from the PDT.