Can you use this skill against a guard dog to command it to stand down? I can't see any caveats about not being able to use Handle Animal if the target is unfriendly.
You need wild empathy, not handle animal.
Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person (see Using Skills). The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
Any rules reason why Handle Animal shouldn't work though?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because Wild Empathy exists and Handle Animal doesn't do that.
Handle animal is for making creatures do "tricks". It's for training them to do things and then getting them to do it (usually under dangerous situations).
What you want to do is not a trick, it is to influence the animal to not be hostile towards you. That is not a trick, that is basically a diplomacy roll. Except it's an animal, so you need Wild Empathy instead of diplomacy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because Wild Empathy exists and Handle Animal doesn't do that.
Handle animal is for making creatures do "tricks". It's for training them to do things and then getting them to do it (usually under dangerous situations).
Arguably, both "down" and "stay" are tricks that one could "push" an unfriendly animal into performing. It's not so much that you are influencing the animal not to be hostile -- you are influencing the animal into not-attacking, which is slightly different.
In general, I would agree that this is not the intended use of the skill, though. At this point, we're almost talking about using Handle Animal as a substitute for Intimidate.
It's definitely not the intended usage, otherwise there would be no need for Wild Empathy to exist in the first place.
If you could accomplish the goal of getting the creature not to attack you via Handle Animal that is usually going to be easier than convincing a creature not to attack you using Wild Empathy since it's a charisma check + level on classes that don't use much charisma and you can't boost it through skill focus or other skill enhancing items/abilities.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Any rules reason why Handle Animal shouldn't work though?
Because sanity and sense are a thing.
Option 1: Handle animal LETS you tell an animal that is relatively disposed to listening to you know what you want and gets them to do it.
Option 2: Handle animal makes an animal do something.
Option 2 is bloody nuts. You can make a dc 25 check to tell a mother lion to attack her cubs, or a mere dc ten check to make a horse attack their own knight. It obviates the entire wild empathy class feature and gives you more control over a creature than charm animal.
|
In the original poster's example, does the Guard Dog (a domesticated, trained animal with an Int of 1 or 2) have the Exclusive Trick?
If it doesn't, I'd be happy to reward a player who invested in Handle Animal with a chance to avoid the encounter.
DC 10 or 12 for a Trick that the animal is trained in, or DC 25 or 27 for a Trick that requires pushing.
If it's a wild, untrained animal, then no, that's where Wild Empathy becomes useful.
In the original poster's example, does the Guard Dog (a domesticated, trained animal with an Int of 1 or 2) have the Exclusive Trick?
If it doesn't, I'd be happy to reward a player who invested in Handle Animal with a chance to avoid the encounter.
If it's a wild, untrained animal, then no, that's where Wild Empathy becomes useful.
The only difference between a wild animal and a trained animal in this case (assuming you let handle animal work at all) is that the DC for a trained animal (assuming they're trained in the trick) will be less than it is for a wild animal.
If you're going to let it be used this way on one, you can't decide it doesn't work on the other. Either it works on both or neither. And neither is the correct answer, IMO.
Alright, let me rephrase that. Logically it doesn't make sense and is not consistent with the rules that exist.
Only to elaborate, it does not change the overall context.
|
|
I was agreeing with you that it doesn't make sense to give a wild, untrained animal a command for a Trick and expect it to respond.
If you go up to a domesticated Horse, on the other hand, it makes sense that anyone could command it to Work (or Ride, or whatever it's trained in) unless it was also trained in the Exclusive Trick.
I extend that logic to Pathfinder.
Do you not?
The short answer is no, because of reasons already stated. But honestly it wouldn't be a bad thing if wild empathy was rolled into Handle Animal. Pulling off a WE check is kind of tough because its a Cha ability given to Wis-based classes and it doesn't really have ways to boost it. Rolling the two together would be fine for the most part, but hypothetically you could run into the kind of problems some people have with Diplomacy. Just like the trapfinding feature allows a character to disarm magical traps, maybe the wild empathy feature could allow a character to use handle animal to calm a hostile animal.
I was agreeing with you that it doesn't make sense to give a wild, untrained animal a command for a Trick and expect it to respond.
If you go up to a domesticated Horse, it makes sense that anyone could command it to Work (or Ride, or whatever it's trained in) unless it was also trained in the Exclusive Trick.
I extend that logic to Pathfinder.
Do you not?
No, I fervently disagree. Because the way the rules are written there is no distinction between a wild untrained animal and a trained animal, except for the DC needed reach in order to make the animal do the trick (which doesn't make sense in the first place, but those are the rules).
A wild untrained horse can be "pushed" to do things like ride or work just like a trained horse could. So saying that it doesn't make sense to allow an untrained animal not to do it because they are wild is against the rules.
Where Handle Animal meets Wild Empathy is that creatures that wouldn't be naturally predisposed to accepting commands is that you would first need to make the animal amenable to taking commands via Wild Empathy.
It's like making a diplomacy check to make someone friendly, and then another diplomacy check to actually get them to do something for you.
Except in this case you need Wild Empathy to get them to listen to you, and then a Handle Animal to get them to actually do it. But without Wild Empathy the guard dog will ignore you because you are not it's trainer.
Which is actually another huge thing that bothers me about Handle Animal. It should really be specific to the individual that trained it. Unless you know the command words/hand motions used in training you shouldn't be able to get it to do much of anything at all.
I do agree with Ciaran Barnes that the effect of Wild Empathy should probably be rolled into Handle Animal and that those classes with the ability should just be given an bonus to handle animal checks equal to their class level (or maybe half level).
But as it sits, wild empathy and handle animal are like two halves of the effect of diplomacy. One part increases the friendliness level between the creatures, the other half lets you get the creature to do something.
With diplomacy this is all rolled into one, because you are talking and trying to convince the character of something because it is intelligent. With animals it is different because they do not possess enough intelligence to talk with and make requests of, but will respond to things they are trained to do if they trust you (are friendly towards you).
So, when the mission briefer gives the party Horses to cross the caravan trail faster, those PCs are supposed to... What? Say "No, the rules forbid us from riding them."?
No, because those domesticated horses most likely view the PCs as friendly already and be willing to accept commands.
A guard dog on the other hand shouldn't view people generally as "friendly".
I should probably just chalk this discussion up to another failure of "RAW" logic and move on.
Run your tables how you want to, I suppose.
I agree the rules are bad, but that doesn't mean we should ignore that ranger and druids get a special ability that lets them do this, and maybe not everyone should get to do it. Without giving some sort of compensation to those classes for effectively removing their unique ability.
Yes, everyone can, they only need spend a skill point to attempt to do so. That isn't a real restriction.
Handle animal makes no distinction between wild animals and other animals, except as you note, for the purposes of rearing wild animals.
Therefore, the is no restriction on using handle animal to push a wild animal to perform a task it is physically capable of performing.
That's why you need the existence of "animal diplomacy" which is wild empathy. Friendly animals are likely to obey commands given by handle animal. Unfriendly animals are not, but their attitude could be improved by Wild Empathy.
Effectively, by combining Handle Animal and Wild Empathy you get full animal diplomacy.
Handle Animal is also trained only, so saying "everyone" can do it isn't accurate.
It's effectively no training required for domesticated animals, which would (because pathfinder uses domesticated when they should probably use "tamed") includes everything from a horse to an attack dog to Fluffy the T rex that someone raised from an egg.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wild Empathy can influence wild animals.
Using Handle Animal, you can't.
The only mention of Handle Animal with regards to wild animals is Rearing a wild animal.
Nowhere in Handle Animal can you give an untrained, wild Wolf the Attack command to turn on its pack.
There's 2 schools of thought on this.
1) Is that handle animal doesn't come out and say it, but presupposes that the animal is at least willing to consider maybe doing what you tell it
2) Is that handle animal doesn't require that.
If you go with 2, then there's really no difference between a wild and domesticated animal except that a wild animal has no tricks and you need at least 1 rank in handle animal to get them to do anything. A full dound DC 25 handle animal check gives you full control over a critter in 6 seconds
If you go with 1, then it's pretty easy to say that most domesticated animals are used to at least considering taking orders from people.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you use this skill against a guard dog to command it to stand down? I can't see any caveats about not being able to use Handle Animal if the target is unfriendly.
A guard dog that is guarding is not necessarily unfriendly.
Any dog I want to guard I would expect to know the Down trick.Under Handle an Animal it states: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. ... If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action..
Push an Animal states: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. ... If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
Wild Empathy states: The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
Unless there is some special reason for being unfriendly, a guard dog is indifferent. Being aggressive while guarding is not being unfriendly.
RAW, this works. Making it stand down is making it use a trick it should know. The OP did not ask to make friends with the creature, which would need Wild Empathy.
EDIT: Handle Animal does not distinguish between domestic and wild animals except for Rear a Wild Animal, so you can "push" a wolf to Attack something else, with a DC of 25 [27 if already hurt]. However, attacking a pack mate is not attacking an enemy, so you cannot do that. As a GM, I would be incline to use a +2 or +5 modifiers for the hostility of the wild animal to me.
/cevah
|
|
Handle animal makes no distinction between wild animals and other animals, except as you note, for the purposes of rearing wild animals.
Therefore, the is no restriction on using handle animal to push a wild animal to perform a task it is physically capable of performing.
That is certainly an interesting interpretation. If you want to run things that way, I can't stop you, but it doesn't make much sense.
I'll be going with my interpretation.
That is certainly an interesting interpretation. If you want to run things that way, I can't stop you, but it doesn't make much sense.
I'll be going with my interpretation.
I really can't see how you get halfway out though.
An ad hoc handle animal skill challenge is fine It just doesn't translate out to other sections of the rules.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
this is why a dedicated guard animal ought to have the "exclusive" trick, to prevent shenanigans.
this is why a dedicated guard animal ought to have the "exclusive" trick, to prevent shenanigans.
I dislike the idea that for 15 years there was this glaring hole in handle animal...
and every animal encounter
and every magical beast encounter when the beast has an int of 1 or 2.
|
|
In real life, you see this all the time.
There are whole businesses geared around selling trained animals.
Hunting dogs, work horses, guard dogs, truffle pigs, herding dogs and helper animals of multiple species.
Very few of them ever come with an "Exclusive" Trick. That goes against the whole business model of selling a trained animal.
Sometimes, you do encounter such an animal. Usually police dogs, for good reason, although I can imagine some rodeo and circus animals as well.
But the logic that "this one time I had someone argue that you could use Handle Animal on a wild, untrained animal, therefore I will disallow Handle Animal always unless you personally trained the animal" is nonsense.
Which makes perfect sense why they felt the need to introduce the Exclusive Trick, wouldn't you think?
No.
The exclusive trick prevents your critter from being commanded when they've been wild empathied or charmed. Both of which are something you'd have to deal with under the paradigm that the critter has to be willing to listen to you. THATS what exlusive patches, not some non existent rule that anyone can command your critter with a dc 10 check.
But the logic that "this one time I had someone argue that you could use Handle Animal on a wild, untrained animal, therefore I will disallow Handle Animal always unless you personally trained the animal" is nonsense.
is someone making that argument?
That is what I gather from Claxon and yourself.
No. neither of us are saying that. Neither of us are hinting at that. Neither of us are implying that. Neither of us are saying anything that you can remotely turn into "train it yourself or you can't tell it anything".
We've both been very clear that, like asking a favor with diplomacy the animal has to like you. Or at least be indifferent to you. Training the animal yourself would be one way of doing that, but so is feeding it for a week , just being around it for a while, or having a dog that just loves everyone.
|
|
In the original poster's example, does the Guard Dog (a domesticated, trained animal with an Int of 1 or 2) have the Exclusive Trick?
If it doesn't, I'd be happy to reward a player who invested in Handle Animal with a chance to avoid the encounter.
DC 10 or 12 for a Trick that the animal is trained in, or DC 25 or 27 for a Trick that requires pushing.
If it's a wild, untrained animal, then no, that's where Wild Empathy becomes useful.
Just to be clear, then, what exactly is your issue with my very first post in this thread?
An animal with the Exclusive trick does not take trick commands from others even if it is friendly or helpful toward them (such as through the result of a charm animal spell)
This seems to imply a rule that Handle Animal only lets you command creatures that are already friendly.
That rule doesn't actually exist, but it's probably worth house-ruling in.
Just to be clear, then, what exactly is your issue with my very first post in this thread?
1) The implication that an animal normally needs the exclusive trick to prevent someone from issuing them commands. They don't. Exclusive is needed to keep a friendly, charmed, or wild empathied critter from being issued commands. Because with that implication...
2) There is no consistancy in your ruling that a dog with a trick can be given a command but Lion, Roc or Bullette cannot.
An ad hoc "quiet the dogs down" DC is fine, but it isn't the same as issuing commands. Thats an enormous can of purple worms.
|
|
You must retract THIS statement that you just made, then.
I can't control what preconceptions you have about dealing with other people in the past.
Take what I'm typing at face value.
I 100% disagree that I must rule the same regarding a trained, domesticated animal and a wild, untrained animal.
There is simply no support for that anywhere. Like, anywhere.
What is the support for a difference beyond 1 rank required in handle animal?
Take what I'm typing at face value.
In the original poster's example, does the Guard Dog (a domesticated, trained animal with an Int of 1 or 2) have the Exclusive Trick?
If it doesn't, I'd be happy to reward a player who invested in Handle Animal with a chance to avoid the encounter.
DC 10 or 12 for a Trick that the animal is trained in, or DC 25 or 27 for a Trick that requires pushin
Is very hard to take as anything other than 'if the animal doesn't have the exclusive trick you can command it with a dc 10 handle animal trick with the down command, or dc 25 if it doesn't" ... the only vague part in the translation being the down part the rest is pretty much word for word.
Handle Animal is trained only, but under "special" it says you can handle or push an animal even if untrained.
Obviously, some parts of how this skill works are undefined. There are many places in the rules where something is undefined because the writer assumes the reader will understand something without it being stated. As a result, nothing in Handle Animal states you can't use it the way the original poster asked about. The writer left things open to interpretation. My feeling is that you shouldn't be able to do it (mostly because of the presence of wild empathy), but we have strong cases here for why you could.
Not following your logic. The Exclusive trick absolutely opens the can of worms that any friendly person can issue your 2 INT animal a command.
The can of worms in Nefreet's logic that without the exclusive trick random adventurer can issue commands to the non friendly doggie.
I am vehemently against the idea of using handle animal on other peoples animals unless the critter is indifferent or better to you, but its fine as part of a heist, chase, or ad hoc check to get through a dungeon.
Wild Empathy states: The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
Unless there is some special reason for being unfriendly, a guard dog is indifferent. Being aggressive while guarding is not being unfriendly.
/cevah
A Trained Gurd Dog is hardly a "typical domestic animal".
The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
How would you say that is indifferent, to me the special reason of "prevents others from approaching" is a Hostile attitude.