Here is something I have been thinking about for a long time, and only started to work on more recently. The premise is this: the alchemist has poisons per day instead of bombs per day. Both deal hit point damage and can have extra effects through discoveries. On the one hand its a very simple change, but on the other hand its hard to know how will the changes will work out in play. Many creatures are resistant to fire, but quite a few are immune to poison.
I decided that the poison could be ingested, inhaled, or injected. This allows for a variety of uses. Ingested would be used out of combat for sinister purposes. Inhaled work like a bomb, but the range is crap and things that don't breathe are immune. Injected breathes new life into the alchemist's poison-related class features. Overall, I feel that "toxins" are less powerful than bombs, but could excel in the right circumstances. I could be way off though. Let me know what you think.
Poisoner (alchemist)
Skills: A poisoner adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Stealth (Dex) to his list of class skills.
Toxin (Ex): A poisoner mixes seemingly innocuous ingredients with his inherent magic to create deadly toxins. He can use a number of doses of toxin each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. They cannot be saved for future use. A poisoner creates toxins from small quantities of the chemicals found in an alchemy lab, which can be refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Each dose of toxin is typically kept in a small vial. Most poisoners prepare a number of vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of doses they can use each day. Toxins have no effect if used by anyone except the poisoner who created it.
A dose of toxin inflicts 1d6 points of damage + the poisoner's Intelligence modifier damage, regardless of the number of doses used. The damage increase by +1d6 points at every odd-numbered poisoner level. This damage is never multiplied (such as on a critical hit or by using the Vital Strike feat). A toxin is treated as poison for the purposes of immunity, saving throws, and applying it to a weapon. The Fortitude DC of any saving throw allowed by a poisoner's toxin is 10 + 1/2 the poisoner's level + his Intelligence modifier. A poisoner can always make a saving throw to negate damage from his own toxins. A dose of toxin can be used in conjunction with a normal poison.
Using a dose of toxin provokes attacks of opportunity. The poisoner chooses one of the following methods of delivery at the time a dose is used:
Ingested: The poisoner can put a dose of toxin in food or drink as though he were applying a poison to a weapon. The damage is dealt to the first creature to ingest it, about 1 minute later. Anyone else who ingests it suffers the minimum amount of damage, but can negate it with a successful save. The toxin becomes inert after 1 hour.
Inhaled: The poisoner can throw a vial of toxin at a target as a standard action, causing it to shatter on impact. It has a range of 10 feet and functions as a thrown splash weapon. A creature struck by the vial takes the damage. Creatures caught in the splash radius take the minimum amount of damage, but can negate it with a successful save. An inhaled toxin has no effect on creatures that do not breathe.
Injected: The poisoner can apply a dose of toxin to one of his manufactured weapons. The damage is dealt to the first creature the poisoner deals damage to with the weapon. The toxin becomes inert after 1 minute.
This replaces bomb.
Hidden Agenda (Ex): When a poisoner uses a poison or toxin, he can make a Slight of Hand check as part of the same action to do so unnoticed (this does not hide attacks). He also receives a +4 bonus on skill checks made to hide poisons and toxins, or to conceal their true nature.
This replaces thrown anything.
Additionally, I wrote way too many discoveries catered to the poisoner alchemist. The basic style is currently in its second incarnation, and I'm still not sold on them, so they might get another rewrite. We'll see how things go before I decide to post them or not.
Re: Ingested: I think it's cool that you tried to address something that is lacking in the poison rules (what happens if a dose of ingested poison becomes 'diluted'), but I don't find the execution satisfying. Maybe the total damage is split among those who ingest the poison?
Re: Injected: Under the right circumstances, this could be very nasty with a ranged build (poisoning several arrows in advance, then unleashing them as a full attack).
Is there an attack option that allows a character to force another creature to open its mouth (something like the smother universal monster ability)? That would be very handy with inhaled poisons (which generally aren't very dangerous).
I like the idea, but I can only imagine a build which uses lots of natural attacks + toxin and coating all their weapons. Then effectively having sneak attack damage with a save instead of with position requirements.
I think this could be tricky to balance. Depending on the group, flanking is easy, but it others its impossible. Other methods of denying dex to AC take a while to work and usually have some sort of sacrifice in action economy required.
I'm not sure if the saving throw to negate it would be sufficient.
Maybe a once per round clause on the toxin?
Sorry, if it's unclear I was comparing the ability to sneak attack in my mind but left out such a statement.
Constructive criticism! Thank you both.
Amanuensis,
The reason I did ingested the way I did is that generally in cinema someone eats a portion of their food and a moment or two later is poisoned. They don't even finish it. I didn't state it in the ability but I was imagining the toxin going into a single plate or bowl - not a giant pot of stew. This seemed to be a simple compromise. Still think it needs to be changed?
Its funny that while I was designing this I gave little thought to ranged attacks. If you miss with a melee attack, you can try again. If you miss with a ranged attack, you would need to retrieve the weapon or ammo. As far as making a full attack with it, I stated that the toxin becomes inert after one minute, attempting to reduce abuse, but there is still some room to stock up for a few round and kick in the door. Do you think I need to implement a "one toxin at a time" thing?
I imagined the inhaled toxin being used like an alchemist bomb. You throw it, hit a target, and then there is splash damage. So I don't think you would need to force someone's mouth open. Not my intent with the ability though. I suppose you could force open their mouth for ingested poison though.
Claxon,
I didn't mean for this to work with natural weapons, so I stated that enjected toxin had to be applied to manufactured weapons. I imagine that a create who poisons there own claws would be susceptible to it as well. I though it best to avoid natural attacks altogether. I suppose a creature immune to poison could do it though. Also, the intent is that the injected toxin is only good against the first target. Does that need to be clarified.
You are right that it is tricky to balance, hence me asking for input. :)
Is one minute before becoming inert too long? I could make it one round, but I'd like a little longer.
Ingested: I see. I'm not sure if that comes up too often. (who would finish a meal that was obviously poisonous to the first person that ingested it?)
Injected: What if the target suffered the 'splash damage' as secondary damage after 1 round? Additional doses would increase the duration and saving throw of the poison (and thereby prevent huge amounts of stacking damage).
Inhaled: Holding ones breath grants a creature a 50% chance to ignore the poison. I was thinking of chemical warfare and how they used irritants to force victims to take of their protective gear. Maybe that could be a discovery.
Cool idea, but I think the toxin mechanics need work. What bothers me is that it's a poison that doesn't follow any of the poison rules.
Constructive criticism! Thank you both.
Claxon,
I didn't mean for this to work with natural weapons, so I stated that enjected toxin had to be applied to manufactured weapons. I imagine that a create who poisons there own claws would be susceptible to it as well. I though it best to avoid natural attacks altogether. I suppose a creature immune to poison could do it though. Also, the intent is that the injected toxin is only good against the first target. Does that need to be clarified.You are right that it is tricky to balance, hence me asking for input. :)
Is one minute before becoming inert too long? I could make it one round, but I'd like a little longer.
Yes yes! I think that a good way to balance it.
I would allow a them to apply the toxin as a swift action. It last minutes per alchemist level, and is used up after 1 successful attack. With a specific caveat of not being able to be applied to natural weapons as it would harm you and be used up.
In this way you eliminate any issues about the effect occuring more than once a round. (Or three times in a round in the initial round if they are twf and then apply to a weapon again after its successful struck a target). However, with the limited number of uses per day this is balanced out. And really isn't any worse than the alchemist which took quick bomb and throws out several in a round.
Cyrad,
It doesn't follow the existing model for poison on purpose. When you're fighting monsters, ability damage don't mean as much as hit point damage and debuffs (debuff are part of the discoveries, not a default aspect of toxins). This follows the model for bombs, but is treated as a poison for the purpose saving throws, immunity, and what action is used to apply it to a weapon.
Amanuensis,
You suggest that "splash" damage be used as recurring damage, kind of like how a normal poison has its effect until you succeed on enough saves. I'd like to avoid complications of using multiple doses, but I suppose I could use that for a discovery. Also, I didn't want to stack damage too much, because this toxin damage is in addition to the weapon damage.
I could change the inhaled poison to a contact poison, where the target is damaged by drops hitting its skin.
Claxon,
The action used to apply a toxin is the same as a poison. It starts as a standard action. Swift Alchemy makes it a move action at 3rd level. Swift Poisoning makes a swift action at 6th level. I hoped the "only deals damage once" issue was handled by saying that the toxin deals damage to the first creatures damaged by the weapon.
Amanuensis,
You suggest that "splash" damage be used as recurring damage, kind of like how a normal poison has its effect until you succeed on enough saves. I'd like to avoid complications of using multiple doses, but I suppose I could use that for a discovery. Also, I didn't want to stack damage too much, because this toxin damage is in addition to the weapon damage.
I meant that you could use the poison rules to your advantage when addressing the problem of stacking damage. If the duration is not instantaneous, applying multiple doses would not allow a poisoner to pile up lots of damage; instead, the duration and saving throw would increase. Just a suggestion.
Ranzax,
It doesn't quite help, but I will thank you anyways because I believe you just linked to the thread where I came up with this idea. I had forgotten how I came up with it. :)
A,
Ah I see. For now, the damage is an instantaneous effect. It isn't ongoing/recurring like a poison. However, if that becomes I thing I will use your suggestion.
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What are you going to do about the following discoveries:
Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.
Sticky poison: Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.
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Friendly to Amanuensis' suggestion, I could see your poison being "frequency-fied" like so:
A Toxicicist's poison deal 1d6 damage plus his Intelligence modifier once per round for one round, plus one round for every two Toxicicist levels he possesses, and requires a single successful save to throw off the effects. Multiple poisons in a single victim stack damage and virulence - the victim only makes a single save each round, and each successive dose increases the Fortitude DC by +2.
I posted a response earlier, or tried to at least. I think I forgot to submit it.
The short version was that I have two toxin discoveries that kinda do things like those two poison discoveries. It might be worthwhile to scrap them, then write something that addresses how exist discoveries interact with toxins. Although regarding the sticky, my gut says to not allow it because my poisoner already has multiple uses per day. Actual poisons are an expensive consumable, so getting a few strikes out of it makes more sense to me.
I'd like to avoid recurring damage as part of the basic class feature, for the sake of simple bookkeeping. However, thats what discoveries are for. My current model has recurring damage = "splash damage" or the minimum toxin damage.
Alright. Since we have history I will post a few of the discoveries.
Burning Toxin v1:
A creature damages by this toxin must succeed on a saving throw at the beginning of its next turn or suffer fire damage equal to the toxin's minimum amount of damage.
Burning Toxin v2:
Half of the damage dealt by this toxin is fire damage, and thus can affect creatures immune to poison. This fire damage does not determine if a creature is affected by other toxin discoveries.
Does one seems like better design that the other? There would also be others that do acid damage and cold damage.
Nauseating Toxin
A creature damaged by this toxin becomes sickened. If it fails its first saving throw it also becomes nauseated. The alchemist must be at least 10th level and have the sickening toxin discovery to choose this discovery.
There are others that work similarly. Some for exhausted, blinded, etc. Also a few that don't have a typical condition at all. Thematically, I think it could work out better than straight up ability damage. If you get poisoned you might get tired, you might get sick, you might start feeling like your blood is boiling.
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One more point I want to make and then I'll back down.
I feel like your proposal, as-written, doesn't really "feel" like a poison. It's basically just a re-flavored bomb. The cool thing about the concept of recurring damage is that it differentiates the mechanics in such a way that it changes the "feel" as well.
If the Toxicicist uses a recurring-damage mechanic, then instead of getting instant burst damage, their victim eventually "succumbs" after a few rounds (and failed saves) which "feels" more like a poison-laced victory for our Toxicicist.
Either way, good luck writing your class!