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There are some threads which I think are ban bait. Losing a few good users has killed my desire to participate in the usual subforums I frequent. The only thing I find redeeming nowadays is that forum pbp games are pretty awesome.
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I too have learned the joy of PbP.
Muahahaha!
Today, TOZ, tomorrow the world!
Seriously, as a VL in the PFS Online Team, I hope that more people try PbP. It's an awesome way to enjoy a story that you build with your friends.
Hmm
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I used to post more frequently in Gamer Life and Off-Topic Discussions threads but I spend most of my time now while I am here either in a TreeFort or running and playing in 25 or 30 PbP - helps pass the time :-)
There are some posters I do miss that used to post more frequently but life moves on. Then there are those that just disappear and you never knew what happened to them :-(
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I miss Orthos~!
:/
I miss a lot of people, but some are mentioned, some we shouldn't 'cause drama, and some I just seem to miss.
(Hi, Scavion!)
But I love the forums.
I must own up to being an argumentative fellow on the Rules forums, but Indo try to clarify if I'm explaining RAW, RAI, RAtT, or whatever it is, and try (usually) to clarify where there are valid interpretations other than my own. I don't always succeed, sooooo... oops.
I like that Paizo is expanding and growing. I disagree with a lot of their decisions, and find some of them to be against my interests, but many others find it to their liking, and that, at least, is seriously cool. And I am so daggum hyped for Starfinder.
Also, I'm glad to talk with so many of my friends in FaWtL - a wonderful place to hang out. I love seeing the creativity in rules and advice sections, even as I find the endless repetitive arguments and inability to acknowledge the point of another due to minutia tedious often enough. I heart the communities in AP boards.
I miss many of the changes that have happened. I wish I could fix some of the rifts that have opened. I wish Incould participate more. But time, people, and life are all limited. We do what we can and enjoy what we can and I, for one, find enough enjoyable here that I keep coming back, even when I've gotten really irate about something - good people are a good thing, and this place still has good people. :)
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I miss Orthos~!
:/
I miss a lot of people, but some are mentioned, some we shouldn't 'cause drama, and some I just seem to miss.
(Hi, Scavion!)
But I love the forums.
I must own up to being an argumentative fellow on the Rules forums, but Indo try to clarify if I'm explaining RAW, RAI, RAtT, or whatever it is, and try (usually) to clarify where there are valid interpretations other than my own. I don't always succeed, sooooo... oops.
I like that Paizo is expanding and growing. I disagree with a lot of their decisions, and find some of them to be against my interests, but many others find it to their liking, and that, at least, is seriously cool. And I am so daggum hyped for Starfinder.
Also, I'm glad to talk with so many of my friends in FaWtL - a wonderful place to hang out. I love seeing the creativity in rules and advice sections, even as I find the endless repetitive arguments and inability to acknowledge the point of another due to minutia tedious often enough. I heart the communities in AP boards.
I miss many of the changes that have happened. I wish I could fix some of the rifts that have opened. I wish Incould participate more. But time, people, and life are all limited. We do what we can and enjoy what we can and I, for one, find enough enjoyable here that I keep coming back, even when I've gotten really irate about something - good people are a good thing, and this place still has good people. :)
And good Haversacks!
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This is such an interesting thread.
I have been around for quite some time now I think -a little over seven years apparently judging by when my first ever post was- but I have mostly lurked in the various forums. Again, I think at least; I mean I have posted now and then to be sure, but I do not remember how often. Sometimes I look back through my posts history and I surprise myself. Heh...
Anyway, I am mostly here for the PbPs, so that is the part I generally frequent, though real life does affect such things.
First PbP I got in I played with some interesting fellows. It was DMed by therealthom and the players -in no particular order- consisted of Dabbler, Wellard, hogarth, Set and Neil Spicer (though I think he was just NSpicer back then). I wonder if they are still around and posting...
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I go through cycles of posting and lurking. I do miss some of those gone on now for whatever reason. But most of those who i have conversed and debated with are still around for the speaking too.
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Yeah I miss some of the early guys, but time moved on and now I chat with some other guys and a good time is had by all.
Enjoyment not diminished :)
With these forums it is a case of you get out what you put in.
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Some have felt themselves bullied off the boards (DeathQuaker is someone I always liked and respected; that one hurt),
I miss you too Feros. :) And I appreciate the shout out, but I feel the need to set something straight. ((I am still in PBPs, as I said when I "left," and there's a couple forums I read for informational purposes like this one from time to time, which is why I'm here, if a bit late. Apologies for reawakening from the prior week or so.))
I wasn't just "bullied off the boards." I worry that leaving that impression causes folks to avoid an issue that needs to be discussed when addressing potential problems not just of this board but I think of Internet culture in general. It's worth it enough to come out and say something.
The short version isn't nice, but I need to say it:
It's not the bullies' fault. It's everyone else's.
Sure, I got sick of the MiseryBrigade policing any and all efforts to be enthusiastic or have fun here or anywhere else on the Internet. It is indeed exhausting on the Internet when you're just trying to have some fun and someone inevitably shows up to tell you to stop talking or why whatever it is you love sucks, and how dare you like something.
And yeah, the straw that broke the camel's back for me involved an incident when I was gleefully discussing spy tv shows and lesbians and pie; someone basically showed up to tell me I should just give up being so happy. I mean, something's f+!*ing wrong when you can't even talk about spy lesbian pie without someone trying to take you down.
But while that person hurt my feelings, I just told him off for it.
It's not why I left.
In that moment, I felt like that person in that awkward moment at a party, where you're standing in the middle of the room and someone has just loudly mocked you... and all the other people are just standing in the corners of the room, staring at you, not saying a damn word. You don't know if they agree with you or the other person. No one dares speak up, maybe becaue they think you're a fool but they don't want to add to the noise, maybe because they're afraid of being mocked by that one guy too. Maybe they just think, "this person is being hurt, but it's none of my business to stop people from being hurt." So you're just all alone, amid a horrifying awkward silence.
I didn't leave the party because of that one person.
I left the party because of that "awkward silence." I knew in that moment I was totally alone, and that the purported community people say is here is nonexistent.
I mean, what's the point of being at a party if nobody cares enough to say anything if you're hurt or even if you're there at all?
Yeah, I'm a big wuss for wanting backup. Still, that's my standard for a community: a place where people aren't afraid to stand at each other's side and say, "Hey, I want you to keep talking," or if I AM being inappropriate, I want someone to point it out in a kindly and non-derisive fashion. A community is people standing by each other always. If the community doesn't meet my standards in that, I leave.
No one said, "Hey, keep talking, I am enjoying discussing spy lesbian pie." No one said, "Hey, no, it ain't cool to try to shut down this discussion, let's keep it going." As far as I knew, the community consensus was that I was in fact in the wrong for bringing up spy lesbian pie and everyone agreed with the other poster and thought I should shut up. No one had my back.
After I pointed this very fact out the first time, some people posted or PMed me to say, "Oh, no really, I've got your back"--and I know they meant well. I do appreciate folks' attempt to be kind. But it was still rather too late.
As I've noted before, "favorites" don't count as support either, because they are too nebulous and too silent. You never know fully why someone's favoriting you. I've had bullies/harrassers favorite my posts before, and they obviously weren't favoriting me because they wanted to back me up. I have favorited posts I want to simply track later, not always because I agree or want to be supportive per se. Many use it as a tracking tool. And there's a poster or two who just can't seem to help clicking the button just because it's there. :)
Moreover, the favorite button is the equivalent in my earlier analogy to someone calling you after the party to say "I'm sorry that happened," rather than standing beside you at the time. There might be some comfort in it, but that comfort's fairly cold.
We live in a culture where "minding your own business" is often the norm, and I'm not sure that's always a good thing. Yes, there are things we do need to mind our own business about, but not, I think when people are being hurt. Yeah, for a number of very good reasons, we may want to give someone who's been attacked a chance to speak for themselves. But you can let someone speak for themselves while also speaking up next to them. Failing to do so isn't "minding your business." It's just being afraid.
I'm going to leap a bit here, but when a person yells a derogatory epithet at another person in the street, and no witnesses say anything--the witnesses aren't "minding their own business." They're being too afraid to call the bully out, or more importantly, identify the attacked person as a human and an ally because then they might get yelled at too.
--I'll pause to note that often the best thing to do is not to give the bully more attention, but to give the attackee attention so to show that people DO acknowledge them as good, as valuable, as human--
The reason bullying, hate speech, and hate crimes perpetuate is because people are too afraid to stand by and acknowledge those people being attacked. This attitude begins in very simple and humble areas, even like in a forum where people come to talk about pretendy funtime games.
There is strength in numbers. Too often we let the bullies have the numbers while insisting that the "good guys," ourselves and others, suffer in solitude. The way we change that is starting small--you see someone getting hurt, even if it's just in a pretendy funtime games message board, say, "Hey, I like so and so and I want to hear what they have to say."
I am certain while I was active here I could have done that more myself. I do recall at least a couple occasions when I did try, but I probably didn't do it enough. And it felt lonely doing that too, because it wasn't common. Even when I tried to stand up to give a general anti-hate message, people would sometimes privately thank me for saying something, but seldom do so publicly, where it really counts.
You cannot have community if you don't stand with each other.
And I got tired of trying. I'm human. I've got friends IRL and family and work and religious community and LIFE. It felt much better to just leave messageboards behind and go where, when I put energy put into something, the energy was returned. Where when I stand up, people stand beside me.
A couple folks have said to me, "But if you stop posting, the other guys win." But I was never here for a motherf!&*ing competition. I was here for fun and sometimes intelligent discussion, not to "win." And I am sorry for the cynicism, but I often feel like what someone is really saying there is, "Hey, you speak up and aren't afraid of standing up for people, but I am afraid and I still need you to do it for me." Which... isn't very encouraging. I can understand the fear, but "hey, stand out in the cold for me while I watch from the sidelines" is kinda a harsh request.
Now, I realize trying to spread positivity and standing up for folks is a very hard ask, simply because the MiseryBrigade (along with the WrongBadFunBrigade and the WellActuallyBrigade) tend to be online 24/7 spamming threads with their nastiness and often other folks just don't have time to keep up (though that's where moderation should come in). But perhaps there's food for thought somewhere in this ramble regardless that might come in handy.
I will end with a tangential note on my thoughts on the mindset of a troll:
About a year and a half ago or so, I briefly turned into one of the contemporary world's worst vermin imaginable: a Twitter a&+~@$@. What happened, you ask?
Well, I had a concussion, I was adjusting to a new medication that temporarily screwed up my serotonin balance, and a major catastrophe had occurred less than a mile from where I lived. I was, to say the least, not myself. I was helpless, dizzy, frightened, anxious, and pissed off, and out of control on all of these things, and I just started screaming at people on Twitter. All of what was wrong with me was no excuse: I was a total asshat, and I'm deeply embarrassed and sorry to this day about my behavior.
I remember while writing the tweets, there was this brief, fleeting sense of power, of control, of I'M DOING SOMETHING, and of course it faded as soon as I hit send and then I was more miserable than I was before. I stopped because it felt awful and because the post concussive syndrome was fading after I got some sleep. But I had this brief insight into people who act like this all the time--how utterly unhappy and angry they must be. Maybe all jerks on the Internet have brain injuries and/or hormonal imbalances and/or live in traumatic circumstances. This realization doesn't make me want to just let jerks be jerks--but it also makes me realize there are some deeper issues that need to be addressed and dealt with before the pain expressed in so many communities can go away. There's a lot of work to be done in our society, not just here, before the root of a lot of nasty internet behavior will be fixed.
Our culture as a whole needs to work on helping individuals manage their own anger and pain effectively (going on the Internet and shouting at people does not work). And a lot of that work has to be done face to face, not just on the Internet, so I encourage you to all get out there, as well as try to be the best person you can be when you're online. Over time, things can get better, but it will take a lot of time and effort to make it really work.
Sorry for the crankiness and callouts, but I think this needed to be said and perhaps shines a spotlight on the other side of the issue. Obviously this thread wouldn't have started at all if people didn't want to build something better.
Honestly, most of you folks are lovely people. Paizo is a fabulous company. I wish all of you nothing but happiness and hold you in the Light as some of you seek ways to build stronger community here. You can make things a little better here by showing support and appreciation when you can--indeed, many have in this thread.
I have lived a healthier and happier life since I minimized Internet activity so I will continue in that vein. So I'll peace out here, but I'm never far if you want to chat--I'm in PBPs so in spite of being all, "Bye y'all," I'm pretty much on here every day so you're always welcome to drop a PM. And if I've ticked you off for what I've said, I only hope it makes you think about other approaches to this issue--even if you decide I'm wrong (that's okay). Take care all.
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In that moment, I felt like that person in that awkward moment at a party, where you're standing in the middle of the room and someone has just loudly mocked you... and all the other people are just standing in the corners of the room, staring at you, not saying a damn word. You don't know if they agree with you or the other person. No one dares speak up, maybe becaue they think you're a fool but they don't want to add to the noise, maybe because they're afraid of being mocked by that one guy too. Maybe they just think, "this person is being hurt, but it's none of my business to stop people from being hurt." So you're just all alone, amid a horrifying awkward silence.
I didn't leave the party because of that one person.
I left the party because of that "awkward silence." I knew in that moment I was totally alone, and that the purported community people say is here is nonexistent.
Yeah, that one's on me. I thought I was trying not to pile on more kindling, but maybe it was cowardice on my part. Doesn't matter. I was silent when you needed someone else to just speak up. I know sorry doesn't cut it. Hopefully I do better when it happens again, here or elsewhere.
I still wish you well and all the happiness.
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I want Spy Lesbian Pie...
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Sounds delicious...
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Hey, Deathquaker. Nice post. You should do more of that again. (Please) :)
As you know, I was one of the in-private apologisers who said nothing as it all happened. Since you've left I've been thinking it over, and it has struck me that i don't really know how to deal with inter-poster conflict as it arises on the boards without either leaving good people hanging on their own (and silently flagging and/or emailing community@paizo.com, which is my usual approach) or calling out other posters, which on my reading is against the forum rules.
I'm still sorry that I didn't do more at the time and I don't mean this as any kind of excuse. However, I wonder if the community team can provide some kind of guidance as to what we should do in this situation. It seems to me the forums don't do a good job of protecting those who really don't want to participate in the fight-y threads. People shouldn't leave here feeling like they're on their own and yet "flag it and move on" may well not lend them the support they deserve.
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That's a really good post, DQ. I don't know the context (for all I know, I was part of the problem), but I hope the forums can get better at that sort of thing. It's a tall order for a messageboard of this size to self-police itself effectively, but it's not so tall that it should be abandoned as a goal.
We should always try to call out hostile posts, no matter what side of an argument they're on. If you're arguing about paladins, and a guy who agrees with you starts being really unpleasant to the other side, you have to stand with the "other side" in telling him to back off. Argue ethically.
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That's a really good post, DQ. I don't know the context (for all I know, I was part of the problem), but I hope the forums can get better at that sort of thing. It's a tall order for a messageboard of this size to self-police itself effectively, but it's not so tall that it should be abandoned as a goal.
We should always try to call out hostile posts, no matter what side of an argument they're on. If you're arguing about paladins, and a guy who agrees with you starts being really unpleasant to the other side, you have to stand with the "other side" in telling him to back off. Argue ethically.
This is a pretty common issue that I have seen come up a bunch over the last year. Exploring problems with a particular argument is often seen as an attack on a point of view.
More than once I saw someone who agreed with a position challenge the validity of an arguement in favor of that position. this is called academic honesty. These people were routinely lambasted for daring to challenge the one-true-vision by those with whom they agreed with in principle.
A few times those folks who would dare to engage with academic honesty were chided for their own bias against an idea that they actually supported.
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Hey, Deathquaker. Nice post. You should do more of that again. (Please) :)
As you know, I was one of the in-private apologisers who said nothing as it all happened. Since you've left I've been thinking it over, and it has struck me that i don't really know how to deal with inter-poster conflict as it arises on the boards without either leaving good people hanging on their own (and silently flagging and/or emailing community@paizo.com, which is my usual approach) or calling out other posters, which on my reading is against the forum rules.
I'm still sorry that I didn't do more at the time and I don't mean this as any kind of excuse. However, I wonder if the community team can provide some kind of guidance as to what we should do in this situation. It seems to me the forums don't do a good job of protecting those who really don't want to participate in the fight-y threads. People shouldn't leave here feeling like they're on their own and yet "flag it and move on" may well not lend them the support they deserve.
You can do the same thing online that you can do in real life. It's what I recommend people do at tables where someone's being inappropriate, and it's one of the ways that healthy, well-structured online communities self-police.
If someone does something destructive/toxic:
1) Tell them to stop, and tell them as briefly as possible why it's a problem.
(if you're on our forums, flag the post)
2) Immediately go back to discussing whatever the original topic was, and don't re-engage with the problem poster.
This works when you see someone being subjected to harassment in public (tell the harasser to stop, then engage the victim in conversation about something else and ignore the harasser).
It works at the gaming table ("Dude, the way you keep calling the barmaid a slut is really misogynist and not something I'm comfortable having at my table, so please stop. Okay, Dina, it's your turn, and oh, the bulette mini should actually be on this square").
And it works online. Ignoring people behaving in inappropriate or exclusionary ways is absolutely the way to go sometimes (flag and ignore spam, flag and ignore someone having a completely over-the-top racist meltdown, etc.). If it's that extreme and obvious, there's no need to draw further attention to it.
But setting and upholding community norms of behavior is often more subtle than that, and often needs to be taught to new community members. There are a lot of occasions where moderators have to be the ones to enforce it, but there are times where the community itself can handle it without even getting moderators involved.
There were a lot of times back when I used to do community management that I'd have a PM or a flagged post about a problem only to go to the thread and find out that the community had handled it and there was nothing left for me to do except thank some of the people involved. A lot of those instances were around using the term "rape" as a metaphor for having disproportionately won a match, etc. The staff started the ball rolling by editing it out of posts and leaving notes explaining why we didn't allow the word to be used in that way on our social media. But a few months later, the community had picked up on it and accepted it as a house rule, and any time a newcomer used it in an inappropriate way, a poster would say, "hey, we don't use that word here for anything but its literal meaning because it's a horrible thing to happen to someone and we don't want to make light of it by using it as slang for winning a game. Please don't do it anymore." And then everyone would return to what the original topic had been. If the person started arguing or doubled down, they'd call us in to take care of it, but most of the time, they didn't even need us.
And when that happens, that's great. That helps build an environment where the moderators and the community tend to feel like they're on the same side.
There are always going to be people who just want to make trouble, and you're going to always need people with admin powers to deal with them.
But even in those cases, it's often worth giving the technique above a shot--even if the person isn't interested in trying to understand and work with community norms, in cases where it's exclusionary or bullying, it helps people who are the direct or implied targets of the abuse know that the community supports them and not the abuse. (People who are engaging in abusive behavior often take the silence of observers as proof that everyone agrees with them, and targets of abuse often take that silence as an indication that they're alone.)
It's key to remember: both the speaking up, and the immediately moving back to the original topic (not arguing) are vital. Without the first, you don't have a supportive community. Without the second, you end up with nothing but flamewars.
Of course, there are going to be things for which there aren't community norms--there are always going to be subjects like some political topics, playstyle opinions, etc. on which there isn't any broad consensus, and on which no norms need to be spread.
But we should all be able to get together on things like bullying, name-calling, etc. One or two people saying, hey, not cool, and then moving on is usually enough--if two people have told the poster to stop, more people don't need to pile on. (And I'd advise doing it as a separate post from whatever on-topic stuff you want to talk about, so that if Chris comes through and deletes the original post and anything quoting it, your on-topic stuff doesn't get deleted as fruit of the poisonous tree.)
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Thanks, Jessica. I have next to zero experience online other than the paizo forums. Perspective like that is really useful. I think your point about splitting the on-topic discussion from the "that's not appropriate" posts is well made. I've never really made the effort to do that before, but it's obviously a superior method now you say it.
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The only challenge I have with the board is that due to the peculiar demographics of the hobby there's a not-insignificant number of people whose insecurities aren't secure about their other insecurities and/or who are further on the introversion and/or autism spectrum than the average of population. At least compared to other hobbies, such as, say, fishing or photography.
As a result, you get:
a) proportionally higher amount of people who lose their peanut the moment the conversation leaves their comfort zone,
b) proportionally higher amount of people who have problems interacting with other intelligent carbon-based life-forms.
Sometimes you get both in one person and then you end up with your Facebook feed filled with nihilist memes shared every 5 minutes. Yes, you need to cut it down, buddy.
To put it more simply, a lot of gamers are less socially skilled than average, and this makes them/us less well-equipped to handle conflict.
That said, most of the "ugly" arguments I've seen on the forums are pretty typical online fare. They usually edge on the upward side of it, in fact.
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fwiw I'm back and my capslock key still works.
That's better than nothing!
Though yeah, there is a good chance for stupidity in various places around here. Or anywhere on the internet.
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It always interests me when people say that this forum's community is unusually hostile or unpleasant.
This is one of the most highly moderated and generally speaking tame forums I've ever been on. It's also, despite people claiming everybody is negative against Paizo, one of the communities that's the most allegiant to the company it's based around (with the exception of the Bioware forums where it was hard to ask a question without 10 people showing up to slobber knob and berate the person who asked it for daring to question the great developer. Those boards don't exist any more.).
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And when that happens, that's great. That helps build an environment where the moderators and the community tend to feel like they're on the same side.
Though this may have its negative side effects too. Moderators are humans too and unluckily, that brings the tendency with it to turn one's blind eye to those people misbehaving that you feel are on your side too. And on the other hand, it might lead to a certain elitism against new members in that you try to teach them to hold too a developed informal standard when they actually do nothing wrong (apart from maybe stating an opinion that, while perfectly valid, doesn't fit this informal standard).
That is not meant as a general argument against community self-moderation, but it is something that happens and and it also has happened on these boards and probably will happen in the future again. Paizo is certainly not the worst offender on this particular front, but I've seen it happen often enough (especially elsewhere, be it as forum member or as moderator) that I'm a bit wary of community self-policing.
But that's also why I don't critizise how moderation gets handled here, though I personally think that it's sometimes a bit too heavy-handed. But better that than having the anarchy that comes with the opposite approach.
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A couple folks have said to me, "But if you stop posting, the other guys win." But I was never here for a motherf@@~ing competition. I was here for fun and sometimes intelligent discussion, not to "win."
And that is one of the biggest problems I have on the forums and why I tend to lurk rather than post. It isn't worth getting into some of the conversations when I can predict the outcome within a few post and by who is posting. It stops being about the conversation and starts being about point scoring and being "right".
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And when that happens, that's great. That helps build an environment where the moderators and the community tend to feel like they're on the same side.Though this may have its negative side effects too. Moderators are humans too and unluckily, that brings the tendency with it to turn one's blind eye to those people misbehaving that you feel are on your side too. And on the other hand, it might lead to a certain elitism against new members in that you try to teach them to hold too a developed informal standard when they actually do nothing wrong (apart from maybe stating an opinion that, while perfectly valid, doesn't fit this informal standard).
That is not meant as a general argument against community self-moderation, but it is something that happens and and it also has happened on these boards and probably will happen in the future again. Paizo is certainly not the worst offender on this particular front, but I've seen it happen often enough (especially elsewhere, be it as forum member or as moderator) that I'm a bit wary of community self-policing.
But that's also why I don't critizise how moderation gets handled here, though I personally think that it's sometimes a bit too heavy-handed. But better that than having the anarchy that comes with the opposite approach.
Yeah, I can attest that Paizo is definitely not the worst offender. There are some places where supposed moderators will actually attack those who they deem inferior/badwrongmale/icky-poo.
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A couple folks have said to me, "But if you stop posting, the other guys win." But I was never here for a motherf@@~ing competition. I was here for fun and sometimes intelligent discussion, not to "win."And that is one of the biggest problems I have on the forums and why I tend to lurk rather than post. It isn't worth getting into some of the conversations when I can predict the outcome within a few post and by who is posting. It stops being about the conversation and starts being about point scoring and being "right".
At times, possibly.
Other times....it depends. I think, on occasion, posters might simply be using the "if you leave, the others win" not with regard to "scoring point or being right", but simply that one less, perhaps more moderate and fun-loving voice being driven off by negative posting/endless trolling just makes the message board that much less positive.
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A couple folks have said to me, "But if you stop posting, the other guys win." But I was never here for a motherf@@~ing competition. I was here for fun and sometimes intelligent discussion, not to "win."And that is one of the biggest problems I have on the forums and why I tend to lurk rather than post. It isn't worth getting into some of the conversations when I can predict the outcome within a few post and by who is posting. It stops being about the conversation and starts being about point scoring and being "right".
This sort of behaviour is particularly prevalent in Rules Questions (where some of us lose sight of "it's a game"). It's a hard thing, because some of us try to nail down RAW so that a better version can be written, and that's a laudable goal, but there's a subset that seem to want to be "my overpowered interpretation of the text is correct, while your balanced and reasonable interpretation isn't right and I'm going to shout at you all until I WIN!!!"
I'd love to see some clearer rules for RQ threads (usually responses rather than the initial question) to counter that behaviour, but I frankly have zero clue how to approach it.
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Yeah, I can attest that Paizo is definitely not the worst offender. There are some places where supposed moderators will actually attack those who they deem inferior/badwrongmale/icky-poo.And when that happens, that's great. That helps build an environment where the moderators and the community tend to feel like they're on the same side.Though this may have its negative side effects too. Moderators are humans too and unluckily, that brings the tendency with it to turn one's blind eye to those people misbehaving that you feel are on your side too. And on the other hand, it might lead to a certain elitism against new members in that you try to teach them to hold too a developed informal standard when they actually do nothing wrong (apart from maybe stating an opinion that, while perfectly valid, doesn't fit this informal standard).
That is not meant as a general argument against community self-moderation, but it is something that happens and and it also has happened on these boards and probably will happen in the future again. Paizo is certainly not the worst offender on this particular front, but I've seen it happen often enough (especially elsewhere, be it as forum member or as moderator) that I'm a bit wary of community self-policing.
But that's also why I don't critizise how moderation gets handled here, though I personally think that it's sometimes a bit too heavy-handed. But better that than having the anarchy that comes with the opposite approach.
Didn't that sort of craziness lead to Green Ronin shutting down their forums?
A couple folks have said to me, "But if you stop posting, the other guys win." But I was never here for a motherf@@~ing competition. I was here for fun and sometimes intelligent discussion, not to "win."And that is one of the biggest problems I have on the forums and why I tend to lurk rather than post. It isn't worth getting into some of the conversations when I can predict the outcome within a few post and by who is posting. It stops being about the conversation and starts being about point scoring and being "right".This sort of behaviour is particularly prevalent in Rules Questions (where some of us lose sight of "it's a game"). It's a hard thing, because some of us try to nail down RAW so that a better version can be written, and that's a laudable goal, but there's a subset that seem to want to be "my overpowered interpretation of the text is correct, while your balanced and reasonable interpretation isn't right and I'm going to shout at you all until I WIN!!!"
I'd love to see some clearer rules for RQ threads (usually responses rather than the initial question) to counter that behaviour, but I frankly have zero clue how to approach it.
My experience was slightly different, lines always seemed to form around does one reading/combination allow a player to do something unexpected or unique (regardless of power/strength of that thing?) Then regardless of the clarity/cloudiness, or the precident, applicable FAQ's, other similar rules to draw logic from, or lack of those the exact same folks will always stand up and say allowing is broken cheese abuse and another group of folks will always say that only grognard control freak GM's wouldn't allow.
Which always put me off because I gm basically 95% of the time, so being called an abusive cheese-seeking power gamer with snowflake complex was annoying.
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Although Paizo occasionally has the next closest thing, where post full of insults and hostility are favorited by Paizo employees/mods.
Yeah, I can attest that Paizo is definitely not the worst offender. There are some places where supposed moderators will actually attack those who they deem inferior/badwrongmale/icky-poo.
The Paizo favorite button is not exactly a facebook like button, but also a powerful bookmark and sorting tool on this website.
Therefore a Paizo employee favoriting a post might not mean what you think, but it could. Nobody knows.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that the "fair and reasonable" guys are white knights, nor that the "I R teh powah gamer" types are always rude: both sides can be total jerks, and I've been on both sides and been the jerk on both sides. My point was more meant to be that the discussions where those two sides start to form are the ones that go toxic.
I guess I was being overly "me vs them" because I like to think that I'm more often "fair and reasonable" than the other.
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I was going to make a new thread for my thoughts but this one has the perfect title already.
As some posters mentioned here, this community has gotten more hostile. I've been here for years, almost always lurking. I've seen the change. And the more I post, the more I see it. Maybe I'm just bad at the internets, but in many threads where I post things get heated no matter how diplomatic I and others try to be. Heated is being gentle in some cases. I don't even post in the worst threads.
Jessica Price's advice is good, but here's the problem with community self-policing in this case. The forums are becoming riddled with jerks and trolls. They are slowly taking over and they tend to be particularly noisy in threads for newer players. The perception some new posters are getting from Paizo.com is that this is not a welcoming community. You come here to get into flamewars and be told that you don't play the game correctly and you are wrong about everything.
Don't get me wrong. It's great that these forums have rare instances of hate against minority groups, LGBTQ, etc. That means you're already better than 99% of the internet. Instead of being so obvious (or "extreme" as Jessica said), you just have people merely skirting the lines of breaking the rules repeatedly.
But I just want to talk about games. Not just games, but the one I play every week. And I particularly like to talk to new players/posters. I don't have an answer to how it can be better; I just know I don't enjoy posting here any more.
Note: This isn't one of those "OMG I'M LEAVING" posts. I just had to rant somewhere. I'm wary of even posting this because I feel like I'm about to get jumped on by 10 people for using the forums wrong.
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I actually remember things getting pretty hostile in the "good old days". Better moderation and community self-management has at least made us more aware of it, instead of us just letting it slide half the time. For context as to my personal point of view: These were the sorts of threads we got back in the "good old days".
The trouble is, when people argue rules minutia, they quickly get frustrated at what they perceive as a deliberate obtuseness. And often, in RAW disputes, the side claiming that an absurd ruling is RAW actually thinks the ruling needs to be fixed—they just never remember to clarify it.
For example: I got in an argument a while back with someone who believed something pretty bizarre about how splash weapons affected swarms. After about three pages of arguing back and forth, they finally mentioned, "Oh, I would never run it like this in my games. I just think it's badly worded in the rules."
I still disagreed with them about that, but had I known three pages earlier that we were basically arguing for the sake of argument, I would have been able to hide the thread much sooner. So please, RAWrgumenters, clarify.
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I used to link to Michael Bolton videos a lot more.
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Sundakan: please refrain from personal callouts about stuff that happened in other threads.
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Fair enough, post deleted.
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For example: I got in an argument a while back with someone who believed something pretty bizarre about how splash weapons affected swarms. After about three pages of arguing back and forth, they finally mentioned, "Oh, I would never run it like this in my games. I just think it's badly worded in the rules."
I still disagreed with them about that, but had I known three pages earlier that we were basically arguing for the sake of argument, I would have been able to hide the thread much sooner. So please, RAWrgumenters, clarify.
I'm sorry, I'll try to be more clear in the future.
Are you saying it was you?! *Draws cleaver*
I just made a post and deleted it because it responded to Sundakan's post that was deleted while I wrote it (the one time I don't hit the preview button...). I hope it didn't confuse anybody.
In any case, I bear you no ill will Sundakan and I feel it's safe to mention my post above can be construed as in response to one thread but that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Truthfully, I get most upset seeing others get harassed. But sometimes, especially in periods of great stress in my life (like now), it hits me too.
edit: I also feel I should add certain areas of the forums are totally cool. All the APs are quite helpful and productive. I occasionally dip into off topic and that has been fine. It's advice/houserules/general that tend to have the worst behavior. Just my personal experience. I don't go into any political thread.
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It's a bear-no-ill-will party in here!
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And FYI, just in case it wasn't clear -- I'm in no way suggesting that community self-policing is a substitute for moderation. Moderators still need to take care of trolls, harassment, etc.
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I didn't mean to suggest that. That's why I said your suggestions were good. They are. Especially for real life.
And speaking of real life, I suspect even the folks who seem like jerks would be quite courteous at the game table. I've never been at a sanctioned event where people were rude. That just makes it more complicated and makes me worry more about whether I should have posted anything at all. Sorry for the train of thought post :P
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It's a bear-no-ill-will party in here!
You're not my supervisor!!!