Rogue - Stalker Talent / Up Close and Personal

[Formalhaut]

Forgive me and please point me to an answer if this has been covered before. I've been scouring the interwebs for a rule clarification, but have been unsuccessful thus far.

So I recently stumbled upon "Stalker Talent," a rogue talent that lets a rogue pick a vigilante talent as a 10th-level stalker vigilante. I jumped at the "Up Close and Personal" option. This remarkable, wonderful talent allows the user to attempt a melee attack with bonus damage as a swift action when using Acro to move through an opponent's square without invoking an AoO. On a successful check, "this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC." For a normal vigilante, that means a certain amount of d8s on a successful check or a certain amount of d4s on a failed check.

Things get complicated for the high-level rogue. Stalker Talent provides that certain vigilante talents marked with an asterisk can't be stacked with the rogue's sneak attack ability, because a sneak attack is treated as a vigilante's "hidden strike." The thing is, Up Close and Personal isn't marked with an asterisk. To me, a straight reading of the rule would mean that my rogue gets a sneak attack (EDIT: to clarify, instead of hidden strike) regardless of whether his Acrobatics check succeeds - because the enemy is either unaware, or denied the Dex bonus to AC. This wouldn't seem to make sense at all.

An alternate reading that occurred to me would mean the bonus hidden strike damage as a 10th-level stalker vigilante (5d8) upon a successful check, and regular sneak attack damage upon a failed one. However, that seems backward. Nevermind the fact that I'm moving through this square so that I can sneak attack the guy in the first place.

Can anyone resolve this before I try to lawyer it out with my DM?

[KingOfAnything]

Stalker Talent, Ultimate Intrigue wrote:

The rogue can select a vigilante talent. For the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, regardless of her actual rogue level. Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent, which means, among other things, that she can't apply any of the vigilante talents marked with an asterisk (*) to her sneak attacks.

Okay, your sneak attack always counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage. I'd say you apply your sneak attack dice whether or not you make the Acrobatics check. You just need to attempt the check so enemies have a chance to take an Attack of Opportunity if you fail.

I'd say d6s either way.

Editted.

Further Reasoning:

Quote:

A stalker vigilante can apply only one talent marked with an asterisk (*) to a given hidden strike, and only when that hidden strike is dealt against a foe that is unaware of the stalker vigilante's presence (or who considers him an ally), unless otherwise noted.

Your sneak attack only ever counts as against enemies denied their Dex to AC. That is why you can't apply talents marked with (*).

Up Close and Personal lets you make an extra attack (against normal AC) and apply your sneak attack at the risk of being hit yourself. Vigilante's have two different kinds of "sneak attack" that they call hidden strike. The talent doesn't give a rogue hidden strike. Applying hidden strike damage for a rogue just means adding sneak attack damage.

[BigNorseWolf]

How hidden strike interacts with rogue sneak attack dice is a rules mess at the moment.

Option 1: your rogue has no hidden strike dice, so you effectively can't use that talent. (leaning this wayish myself)

Option 2: its d6s for you either way

Option 3: You do d8s when you succeed but d4's if you fail.

Theres no way you're getting d8's but not get the d4s if you fail. If you do it AS a vigilante then you do it as a vigilante and get the d4's: a rules argument that only looks at the upside but not at the downside isn't arguing with consistency. The same logic that leads to d8s leads to d4s.

[Formalhaut]

Thanks folks. The GM decided on what BigNorseWolf identified as Option 3. His reasoning hinged on the fact that the rogue counts as a 10th-level vigilante, and the specific mention in the rule that the "sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage." So my rogue will be doing 5d8 or 5d4 bonus damage on the swift action attack, depending on the (almost invariably positive at this point) outcome of the acro check.

(EDIT: typo)

[CBDunkerson]

I think the intent was actually that your sneak attack dice always become d4s;

"Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent, which means, among other things, that she can't apply any of the vigilante talents marked with an asterisk (*) to her sneak attacks."

Vigilantes can only apply * talents to hidden strike when they get the d8s. When the circumstances dictate d4s they can't use those talents. So... the bits about "hidden strike with reduced damage" meaning that you "can't apply any of the vigilante talents marked with an asterisk" are saying that rogues ALWAYS do d4 damage when using a Vigilante talent.

[Shadowlord]

BNW: Option 1 may require the least effort, but it's also in direct contradiction with the wording in the talent that says a Rogue’s Sneak Attack counts as Hidden Strike with reduced damage.

CBDunkerson: There is nothing that says you do reduced Sneak Attack damage. There is nothing that says your d6s change at all, into d8s or d4s. It says: Sneak Attack (unaltered) counts as Vigilante Hidden Strike with reduced damage FOR THE PURPOSE OF determining the effects of her vigilante talent, which means, among other things, that she can't apply any of the vigilante talents marked with an asterisk (*) to her sneak attacks[/b]

It’s specific about when/why Sneak Attack counts as reduced damage Hidden Strike; “for the purpose of…” It just means you aren’t adding any vigilante asterisk abilities to this special attack. The Rogue should always get d6s; there’s nothing in the description that states their d6s change at any time.

[Formalhaut]

My position has changed after thinking more about my GM's ruling. I do think it's meant to be 5d8 or 5d4.

The crux of the issue is whether the use of Up Close and Personal actually creates a sneak attack situation. The rule treats a sneak attack as a hidden strike, but it doesn't say that a rogue who is given the ability to make a hidden strike with bonus damage (such as in this situation) gets a sneak attack. The precise wording is crucial and I don't think use of this particular talent actually gives rise to a sneak attack.

Up Close and Personal wrote:

If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

This is an instruction on how to apply a damage bonus. It doesn't say that the target is actually unaware of the person using this talent, and it doesn't say that the target is denied its Dex bonus to AC. Further, the language in Stalker Talent that treats the sneak attack as a vigilante hidden strike doesn't say that a hidden strike is also treated as a sneak attack. So the rogue gets to apply a damage bonus as a 10th-level vigilante, but a close reading doesn't allow that bonus to become a sneak attack.

[KingOfAnything]

That makes sense. I'm curious how a designer would rule on it, though.

[Shadowlord]

Perhaps. However, the "Up Close and Personal" talent doesn't really have to say anything about Sneak Attack. The Stalker Rogue Talent says all you need. It says, Sneak Attack counts as Vigilante Hidden Strike..." So then, you have to read the Up Close and Personal ability while inserting "Rogue's Sneak Attack" in place of "Vigilante's Hidden Strike" to get how the skill should work with Rogues:

Quote:

If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage as if the foe were unaware of the Rogue. Otherwise, the Rogue applies the Sneak Attack damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a Rogue of at least 4th level can select this talent.

In either case the Rogue deals d6s. However, because the Stalker talent says their SA counts as HS with reduced damage "for the purpose of..." they should not be able to add any asterisked Vigilante abilities and should probably not be able to add any asterisked Rogue Talents either.

[Mark Seifter]

This looks like a case of confusion due to non-bidirectionality of "counts as". I admit I could have been clearer in that regard.

The sneak attack counts as hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effect of the vigilante talent, but it doesn't mean that vigilante hidden strike counts as sneak attack.

Oddly, if we did establish bidirectionality and apply it by the letter (remembering only to substitute for reduced hidden strike damage only), it would lead to a weird result that no one listed, wherein a successful Acrobatics check gives you nothing (you don't have anything to bidirectionally substitute for hidden strike as if unaware) and if you failed the Acrobatics check, only then would you apply sneak attack damage using your d6s (due to bidirectionally substituting it for the reduced hidden strike damage). Clearly this is a bit bizarre.

Now with all that said, if I was GMing, I'd likely ignore my own rule (which I wrote to cover the general case as best as possible) and in this specific case allow the d6 sneak attack to apply, succeed or fail on the Acrobatics check; after all, unlike the stalker, our stealthy rogue friend is at least level 10, so she's giving up at least one iterative attack to use this scheme, and she can't possibly pair it with vital punishment or leave an opening either.

[Chess Pwn]

while on the topic. Does up close and personal work with leave an opening

talent marked with an asterisk (*) to a given hidden strike, and only when that hidden strike is dealt against a foe that is unaware of the stalker vigilante's presence

Leave an opening requires this. Does dealing damage as if unaware qualify from a successful tumble allow the talents with an * to work?

[Shadowlord]

Formalhaut wrote:

So I recently stumbled upon "Stalker Talent"...

Where is that talent from?

[CBDunkerson]

Shadowlord wrote:

Formalhaut wrote:

So I recently stumbled upon "Stalker Talent"...

Where is that talent from?

Ultimate Intrigue

[Shadowlord]

Thanks.