Formalhaut's page

My position has changed after thinking more about my GM's ruling. I do think it's meant to be 5d8 or 5d4.

The crux of the issue is whether the use of Up Close and Personal actually creates a sneak attack situation. The rule treats a sneak attack as a hidden strike, but it doesn't say that a rogue who is given the ability to make a hidden strike with bonus damage (such as in this situation) gets a sneak attack. The precise wording is crucial and I don't think use of this particular talent actually gives rise to a sneak attack.

If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

This is an instruction on how to apply a damage bonus. It doesn't say that the target is actually unaware of the person using this talent, and it doesn't say that the target is denied its Dex bonus to AC. Further, the language in Stalker Talent that treats the sneak attack as a vigilante hidden strike doesn't say that a hidden strike is also treated as a sneak attack. So the rogue gets to apply a damage bonus as a 10th-level vigilante, but a close reading doesn't allow that bonus to become a sneak attack.

Thanks folks. The GM decided on what BigNorseWolf identified as Option 3. His reasoning hinged on the fact that the rogue counts as a 10th-level vigilante, and the specific mention in the rule that the "sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage." So my rogue will be doing 5d8 or 5d4 bonus damage on the swift action attack, depending on the (almost invariably positive at this point) outcome of the acro check.

(EDIT: typo)

Forgive me and please point me to an answer if this has been covered before. I've been scouring the interwebs for a rule clarification, but have been unsuccessful thus far.

So I recently stumbled upon "Stalker Talent," a rogue talent that lets a rogue pick a vigilante talent as a 10th-level stalker vigilante. I jumped at the "Up Close and Personal" option. This remarkable, wonderful talent allows the user to attempt a melee attack with bonus damage as a swift action when using Acro to move through an opponent's square without invoking an AoO. On a successful check, "this attack applies the vigilante's hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC." For a normal vigilante, that means a certain amount of d8s on a successful check or a certain amount of d4s on a failed check.

Things get complicated for the high-level rogue. Stalker Talent provides that certain vigilante talents marked with an asterisk can't be stacked with the rogue's sneak attack ability, because a sneak attack is treated as a vigilante's "hidden strike." The thing is, Up Close and Personal isn't marked with an asterisk. To me, a straight reading of the rule would mean that my rogue gets a sneak attack (EDIT: to clarify, instead of hidden strike) regardless of whether his Acrobatics check succeeds - because the enemy is either unaware, or denied the Dex bonus to AC. This wouldn't seem to make sense at all.

An alternate reading that occurred to me would mean the bonus hidden strike damage as a 10th-level stalker vigilante (5d8) upon a successful check, and regular sneak attack damage upon a failed one. However, that seems backward. Nevermind the fact that I'm moving through this square so that I can sneak attack the guy in the first place.

Can anyone resolve this before I try to lawyer it out with my DM?