Hi everyone,
So I'm in the slow process of starting up a RP group with some friends of mine, most of which have some familiarity with RPGs, but are new to Pathfinder (5e experience only). I myself am a new GM, but have lots of familiarity with the [3.5] rules from a backend perspective; rule books as well as via DnD games such as Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and more recently Pillars of Eternity.
In reading these forums over the last while, I've accrued a lot of ideas and perspectives re: re-tooling the game in a more balanced manner, especially for the type of gritty, "low-magic" campaign I'm interested in running.
So what advice, simple changes / fixes / omissions or homebrewed rules can you recommend to keep things relatively more streamlined for us noobs?
Here are some ideas I had already:
"Low-magic"
I see a lot of the issues allowing players full access to the RAW magic system - OP spells, storybreaking teleport, etc - and furthermore to suit my desired aesthetic I figure a low-magic campaign would be best to generate the mystique of witnessing real magic in the game world as well as keep players relatively contained. In and of that I'm thinking of:
1) Allowing only a certain list of magic using classes: Bloodrager, Sorcerer, Druid, Oracle, and possibly later on more powerful classes like Magus, Summoner, Alchemist, Witch, Shaman as player characters (definitely thinking of using them as important NPCs) ** Note straight Wizards won't exist, as magic isn't something you can "just learn" - plus they're stuffy and boring ;)
2) Restricting the list of spells players have access to - they'll have to find someone to teach them if they want to mess with some exotic magic!
3) Potentially re-tooling all Spellcasters to be Spontaneous, incorporating "Rituals" into the mix as a substitute for prepared spells.
4) ... completely scrapping all of the above and starting fresh with Spheres of Power - intriguing, but the flavour and familiarity of the classic classes is really appealing to me. Does anyone have specific experience with a complete SoP substitute?
Reduced Feat List
As with the available magic, the enormous and bloated Feat list will have to be trimmed down to something much more manageable to parse through for my players - I want them to have some open-ended stuff for inspiration, but not so much that it's difficult to digest. If they have ideas for their characters, I'll do the appropriate digging and present them with some options - probably the easiest way to keep the bloat down - give them only what they need to see.
What are your "essential" Feats that are critical/intrinsic to the game?
No "Magic-Mart"
Gold won't exist as it does in RAW Pathfinder - if they need/discover large amounts of gold, it will be for plot purposes only. Players don't have to worry about buying every magic item, and essentials / utility items will be mostly handwaved. Furthermore, this enables me to incorporate magic items as needed, and return that special feeling to that "Flaming Sword" they may or may not find. Still not sure what to do about healing - I really don't like the idea of potions being commonplace, and Wands won't have a place unless it's a really special find.
I can't remember the name exactly, but was it "Heroic Distinctions" that has been talked about to mitigate the +x bonus requirement for monster fighting? I'll probably incorporate something like that, both to mitigate monster creep (I don't have time to rework all these crazy monsters) and to give more things to do upon level up.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns? Looking forward to hearing your input!
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A good start is to just limit the selection of source books. Stick to Core + APG. Most of the complexities come from having to carry a small library (digital or otherwise) to run the game, and flip between them to handle even basic encounters. Start simple. This will also keep everyone from biting off more than they can chew at the start.
If you want campaign source books, like Inner Sea Gods etc., for added flavor, use them for the settings only and skip the optional rules. At least, until you get comfortable with the system.
Have you looked at the Beginner Box to get people started? Lots of good stuff there with full transitioning rules once they reach level 5.
While the box itself only covers 4 classes (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) there are conversions for all of the core classes available.
A good start is to just limit the selection of source books. Stick to Core + APG....
It does seem like a good call... I'm still not sure how to disseminate the info to the players - I wasn't planning on having them read the books, just kind of jumping in, so in that sense I only need what I need, you know?
Have you looked at the Beginner Box to get people started? Lots of good stuff there with full transitioning rules once they reach level 5.
While the box itself only covers 4 classes (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) there are conversions for all of the core classes available.
That's another idea I hadn't thought of, thanks - although I do want to stray from the core Pathfinder model for many of the reasons above, and I'm pretty sure they already have character ideas they want to play that don't conform to those classes (Druid, Monk)
I help them make their characters the first time and am their for every step give a summation of their choice and even make a few choices for them to help them along. Then i put them next to an experienced player who can answer questions for them while i'm running.
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I've always just played fast and loose with newer parties, especially if coming from 5e. As far as builds are concerned just see what your players "want" to do and help them build accordingly. A person at one of my first games was like "I want to have a big sword and kill stuff" So I showed him barbarian, and after he leveled asked him, "So your big and you hit stuff really good, now what? How does Urgh the Strong get stronger?" "I want to get bigger and hit stuff harder!" But then we started fighting dragons and he came to me and said, "Hey these dragons are really cool, so i went and looked for a way to be dragonny. What are these draconic bloodrager things and could I be a dragon disciple?"
I was surprised he had gotten invested enough that he was actively looking at stuff himself. Ease them into the waters of RPG and then let them swim on their own.
From what you've written, MrShine, you seem to be in danger of making things more complicated in your efforts to simplify them. That may sound like nonsense, but it's always a risk with house-ruling.
I definitely feel you on this one... I know for sure I'm making it harder on MYSELF by trying to tweak the system to my liking ;)
Things I'd trim (bearing in mind we are talking about a whole group of neophytes, not just one new player in a veteran group):
1. Things that provoke attacks of opportunity. I'd probably cut it clear down to 'moving through a threatened area, or casting a spell'. In particular, AOs for combat maneuvers just punish warriors for thinking outside their box.
This is great, exactly what I was looking for. I'll also just vaguely add "doing something non-combat related" if it seems appropriate at the time
2. Stabilization checks. Just have characters at -1 to -CON stabilize - at least until your players know the system well enough to do risk assessment.
Seems legit
3. Encumbrance. You probably planned to anyway.
Yup :)
4. Multiclassing. Let them know the option's in the rules but you don't recommend it for first characters.
For sure. I feel like they'll be too busy driving along with their dude/dudette to think about a multi - and if they are interested, they I'd rather show them the hybrid classes. I was thinking of opening up the "pure" spellcasting classes as a multiclass later in the game as part of the story progression, but we'll see.
Thanks for the great input!
I've always just played fast and loose with newer parties, especially if coming from 5e. As far as builds are concerned just see what your players "want" to do and help them build accordingly. ... Ease them into the waters of RPG and then let them swim on their own.
I've definitely been feeling drawn to that, thanks for the vote of confidence!
I'm pretty sure they already have character ideas they want to play that don't conform to those classes (Druid, Monk)
Yes, that's already covered with Beginner Box conversions
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Take a look at:
and click on some of the character sheets. See how nice they are?
I did something similar for my kids. Have a big picture. Have the essential stuff laid out in a friendly manner, and don't list anything that isn't something they role. i.e., you wouldn't need to list most feats--just list their effects.
Make them simpler than the pregen iconics as far as level of detail. It really helps.
Seriously, you could give any one of These sheets to pretty much anyone and they would have no problem with things.
As much as I appreciate the recommendations re: Beginner Box and Kid friendly stuff, I have confidence in my group as they ARE avid gamers, and they'll pick it up - they're just not familiar with Pathfinder per-se.
Mostly I'm looking for ways to streamline things for myself as a GM, such as handwaving things like Gold, Encumbrance & xp, restricting magic, simplifying AoOs and the like.
I'm ESPECIALLY interested in things to streamline combat - I may even leave out Maneuvers until someone starts asking about them - possibly introduce them later via NPCs / enemies.
Thanks for the ideas! Keep 'em coming!
Mostly I'm looking for ways to streamline things for myself as a GM, such as handwaving things like Gold, Encumbrance & xp, restricting magic, simplifying AoOs and the like.I'm ESPECIALLY interested in things to streamline combat - I may even leave out Maneuvers until someone starts asking about them
That is precisely what the Beginner Box rules accomplish. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Piazo staff have created a simplified rule set to introduce new players to the game. There are simplified character advancement rules up to the 5th level, at which point you and your players are expected to be familiar enough to start using the Core Rulebook to guide your play.
At any point, you can introduce some or all of the stripped-out combat rules. At any point, you can introduce some or all of the more complex advancement rules.
People don't do a lot of homebrew hacking to introduce new players because there's simply no need to do so. It's already done in a way that keeps game balance and class balance in line.
Pathfinder has the Automatic Bonus Progression optional rules from Unchained, which mitigates the need for the basic "Christmas Tree" magic items. They're fine for a "low magic" campaign, but you can still use them and hand out cool or interesting magic items regularly, which many players enjoy, as they're a way you can "advance" your character between actually leveling up.
My number 1 House Rule to simplify things for new players?
Remove/ignore ability score prerequisites for feats. Needing a 15 DEX to fight with two weapons or a 13 INT to become competent at tripping people is pretty lame, even for experienced players. For new players getting to level 5 and wanting to take a cool feat you just found, but realizing that you're 3 ability points away from qualifying for it is just annoying and frustrating.
@ CrystalSeas
Thanks for insisting, I just looked over the BB and it's definitely pretty stripped down. Good reference to work off of!
@Ninja
I'm of a mind with you on removing ability score pre-reqs, thanks for the heads up on that.
I'll have to look over Unchained again, especially since one of my players wants to be a Monk...
