Need help adjusting CR to challenge players.


Advice


Hi, I'm fairly new at GMing and I've encountered a weird problem. I can't seem to make an encounter that challenges my players. I also have a question on calculating CR values for encounters.

So the scenario is I'm doing "Hollow's Last Hope" and the party encounters a wolf pack. The party is a group of 6 level 1's and they are spanking any of the stock encounters I throw at them. I had heard that an encounter with a CR that is 4 higher than the groups APL is considered a boss fight. So I put them up against 5 wolves. I'm thinking that 5 wolves equals 5 CR minus the APL makes 4 so it should be a challenging encounter. (I realized after the fact I should have added 1 to APL for large party size) Long story short, they spank that too. One of the more knowledgeable players then told me that this isn't actually a CR 5 encounter but that it was a CR 1 encounter.

So while I don't believe this to be true, the fact that it didn't even phase them makes me wonder if I'm missing something about CR and encounter creation. Because if I were to follow the rules as listed there is very little I can throw at them with an APL of 2.

So If someone could clarify the rules and how to make a challenging encounter for level 1's that'd be awesome.

I feel I should also mention that part of my issue is that I have 2 veterans and 6 newbies. So the veterans are min/maxed and the rest of the players are normal. This is why I haven't just thrown in something super hard because while it would challenge the min/max Barbarian, a direct hit would wipe everyone else.


Your party is level 1. At this level, it's fairly common for an enemy to fall in a single hit. Even a wizard with a quarterstaff is only 1 BAB rank and 4 hp difference from a fighter, and their familiar probably has the highest AC in the party.

My advice is not to worry about balancing encounters until the group is about level 3-4. Going too strong at lower levels runs an extremely high risk of a TPK unless you and your players are very familiar with each other's styles. Run them through a few easy encounters to let them build a roleplaying story together, then challenge them with something tougher.

Still, if you want to create more of a challenge, use environmental hazards and give the opposing team the advantage.

For example, my own homebrew campaign began at level 1 with five players. The scenario was to track down a group of orc bandits hiding in a swamp. A series of easy random encounters to get to the orc hideout ensues, starring a goblin dog and a pair of stirges. The group steamrolls them, building their confidence and introducing their playstyle at the same time to everyone at the table.

Then things get tougher. The next encounter involves a lizardfolk and a hidden patch of quicksand. By now I've got a read on the group and know how they'll react. Thus, I bait the party's melee fighter by having the lizardfolk lob javelins at him from cover. He takes the bait and charges straight into the quicksand. This locks down two characters in the group as the strongest melee fighter is badly failing to stay above the surface due to armor check penalties from his banded mail, necessitating a second player to aid him and leaving only the three weaker members to fight the lizardfolk. They survive but are more cautious now.

Finally they attempt to cross a river, only to encounter a pair of Grindylow (water octo-goblins) lurking under the surface. Nobody beats their Stealth, so they get a surprise round to attack while the group are crossing at the deepest part. Cue water combat rules and drowning rules as well as ranged attack rules against underwater creatures. In short, the party was screwed. Luckily they had two characters with mounts, meaning they could attack from their mounted position and managed to hit and one-shot the monsters before their ally drowned.

In both of the more difficult scenarios, the CR of the encounter was a straight level 1 fight, but unlike the previous encounters the environment played a big part in their difficulty. Other examples I've used in this game include a kobold infested mine with a guard tower that was surrounded by a field of spikes. Improved cover for the kobolds shooting out of the guard tower and no way to close in to engage in melee makes for a difficult fight. In this case, my players used creative thinking to have their kineticist take out one of the tower's support legs from range, toppling the tower and crushing the kobolds inside.

Also don't forget that gear and equipment on a monster isn't just loot for the players. A flask of alchemist's fire is a nasty weapon in the hands of a goblin at low levels. A smokestick can screw any ranged attackers. A scroll of vanish can turn a sorcerer/rogue duo into a lethal team.


The APL+4 CR encounters are supposed to be equivalent to fighting a group of adventurers of the same level. This is similar to the Linear Guild of The Order of the Stick comic. That's not just a boss-fight, that's a no-holds barred fight against an equal threat.

Also, you missed out on a similar discussion I had brought up where many users weighed in quite well. You can find that discussion here.


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Read this guide.


GM Rednal wrote:
Read this guide.

I was scouring my history to try and find the guide that mentioned the Linear Guild and here it is. This one is definitely a great read.

Been struggling to put most of this guide into practice myself, but it does a very good job of analyzing key factors in the difficulty/ease of combat.


Direct links 1 and 2 to the expanded blog posts.


So a couple important things.

The game is actually balanced around 4 players, that are not particularly optimized, use a 15 point buy and are composed roughly of the classic 4 party structure. That means in combat you have the guy good at fighting (fighter), the guy who sort of fights and has skills (rogue), the guy who sort of fights and casts divine spells (cleric) and the guy who casts arcane spells (wizards).

However pathfinder has transitioned a long way from that classic party, and you have keep in mind, if you have a party of 4 players all good at fighting, then that is way more offensive combat then is normally expected. IE a party of a combat druid, a summoner, a warpriest, and dawnflower dervish bard can fight a lot more then the classic 4 can.

Add in additional people and optimization and you again have skewed the numbers.

My rule of thumb Is as follows, for each of the following things, raise the APL by 1.
1. Each person over 4 (yes I know the game says 4-5, but there is a difference between 4 players and 5 players and its silly to just assume its the same).
2. If your stat generation is more generous then a 15 point buy.
3. For each 2 characters that are particularly optimized.
4. If more then half of your party is very good at combat.

The key though, is don't increase CRs by enhancing monsters/enemies, but by adding more.

My guess is you probably hit each of these with your party, so a 6 person party, with better then 15 point buy stats, 2 characters that are optimized and is combat heavy, I would peg at +4 or 5 apl, and add additional monsters to encounters to beef up encounters accordingly. So if I had an ecounter with 4 wolves normally a CR 5 encounter, I would probably make it around 12-16 wolves bringing it up to CR 8 or CR 9 (this takes a bit of judgement based on what your party seems capable of, start by adding 3 to CR then go to 4, then 5 until you hit a comfortable spot.

Remember this is more art then science. CR is not a perfect measure of how much a given encounter will threaten your specific party, but in time you will learn to better figure that out for yourself.


Not a fan of adjusting encounters based specifically on what the party can do. Flat figures like number of players or every additional 10 points of pointbuy is fine.

The problem comes in when you start making changes for things like 'the party has a lot of martial combat.' You have now either drastically increased your work as you adjust encounters both to challenge such a party and to protect it from the gaps in its composition... Or you are screwing it by making easy encounters hard and leaving hard encounters hard.

A variety of encounter types with varying suitability to those tyles is part of the game's expectations.


encounter's don't have to be combats, they're challenges.

A mix of about 2 combats to 1 skill challenge, puzzle challenge, or trap should be about right. That ensures that the party has a variety of skills and can meet various challenges.
Sometimes a group will fail at a challenge. It's not a bad thing and can serve to focus the group's teamwork.
There are also those rare BBEG challenges that are just too hard and the players should learn not to take on everything. Sometimes they need help and retreat is the better part of valor.

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