Need advice to build my second character


Advice


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Alright, This is going to be a biggy. If you can read everything and help out thank you much. I'm rather new (as in 3rd session of 1st campaign) to the entirety of D&D style games, but I find I'm enjoying almost every aspect of the current pathfinder campaign I'm in. Being new I don't know a whole lot and I don't mind walls of text so details, details, details-please. (I will link my current character to show what I have done, and will link my idea of a second character that this post is targeting)

Rough Backstory: (skip to next part for stats and numbers)
So Layla is a female Elf who only wants to see others suffer as much as she has. Brought up by a family of nobility into her teens she learned all that goes with the titles, but soon left it all by the curb as she watched her family slowly broken down by other families until finally a guild of thieves and mercenaries stormed the home and killed everyone. She watched her father die. The same man that taught her kindness whispered to her to run, survive, and destroy those that abuse their power and take what they will. Running, she is captured at the city gates. Unable to allow her freedom after the crimes she had witnessed the murderers tied a rope and hung her from a tree, and leaving her to die she was able to slip a blade out and slice the rope leaving her neck permanently marked and unable to speak louder than a whisper. Believed dead for now she is free to roam and rebuild herself. She takes from nobility and basically anyone that has any semblance of wealth and power only ever tolerating others that have been shunned, are powerless and penniless, and have seen horrors such as her own. She is Chaotic Evil. No religion decided yet anyone fit her to you?

Up-to-Date Layla Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g-dD24EO57D52dizTRMaSZ0lhKTLujDI1sl aMJUc4_c/edit?usp=sharing

Up-to-Date First character for reference to what I know of the game: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18T8DNnSzOau3v-vtSgT7yqyBjn8SL2yoIBL LksQ3EpQ/edit?usp=sharing

Layla is a ninja/wizard class called a nokizaru (an alternate to an alternate: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-alternate-cla sses/nokizaru) I wanted a rogue that didn't simply stealth up behind people, stab them in the back or open their treasure chests, take what she finds and run. No. Layla wants more than that. Layla is going to torment her targets with illusory and conjuration spells. Traumatize them, make them run and cry until they suck their thumbs in the fetal position behind their bed. Then she takes their treasures from the chests and runs.

Nokizaru is an alternate class that isn't completely based in pathfinder, but I trust you the most as I will be building her in pathfinder. Nokizaru are ninjas retaining sneak attacks, but cannot augment them with rogue traits and also cannot learn spells outside of illusion, conjuration and an option of divination/necromancy/abjucation (to keep her from attaining 100% of the strongest benefits from ninja and wizard classes while staying as one class herself: nokizaru). I believe they can choose rogue traits, but all the traits the specifically augment sneak attacks are replaced with a few new ones on the nokizaru class page.

What I have on the spreadsheet so far I can live with for the most part. I've not dabbled in spells yet so those I find I need help with things like spellcraft, caster level, and which ones to choose. Also the Average rogue/ninja only starts with 140gp so the inventory page may be a little (or way) overboard, and some tuning to what to buy and not to will be in order.

She will fight mostly in melee attacks with either a sai and kama OR Elven curved blade. This is because of the cost to TWF and to two-handed weapon feats seems to me (I could be wrong) that it would be way too expensive. That on top of having a point or two into throwing kunai or some throwable (advice?) AND then also into the spell feats seems like a lot. It may not be a good class at all I'm not sure I really just like the character and want to play as her to be completely honest. My DM isn't too strict, but I probably can't just start with an extra 200gp either.

As for her inventory most of her items hide things as she is afraid of having them taken from her. Her clothing has hidden compartments, her wrists have spring assisted compartments, her bandoliers and scarf have compartments, and other things like these I would add just to make her full blown in that regard. she has a disguise kit and a thieves' toolset. unfortunately both are expensive and currently are causing most of my money problems which will most likely force me to go TWF (kama and sai) and just dropp the elven curved blade.

Most her important skill ranks scale in DEX and INT (mainly spellcraft), so most my base ability points went to those. Also enough to keep CON at 10 with the inherent elf race -2, and the extra point put into CHA to boost the skills the class is already proficient in. Keep in mind my DM used a 15 point buy-in for abilities this campaign, and probably will in the next one.

AC is 14 so far although she doesn't plan on being hit with her spells impairing her enemies' abilities to even find her. ignore everything under feats and features and in tactics and mechanics as none of it has been chosen yet. I haven't quite figured out how to choose my starting racial/class traits, and I am not sure how to build her feats either. If anyone can shed light on that problem please do.

Side notes: I've probably forgotten many important things so let me know what you think, your ideas, I love to read everyone's concepts and thought processes. I'd like to point out she has snake and bird tattoos on her arms, and I plan on her having a trained pet of each. also probably going to be expensive, but the RP and accuracy to her backstory are most important to me. If i have to sacrifice items or spells to get on point I don't mind. It's all for the enjoyment. If you have any questions I will answer them as best as possible. It is very possible I have done this all wrong and have completely broken the character so do let me know what you think! If you've rolled a 20 on your Willpower saving throw and read all the way until here I've given you a hypothetical high-five and thank you!


Dwarves are Life wrote:

Up-to-Date Layla Spreadsheet

Up-to-Date First character for reference to what I know of the game

Nokizaru

Linkified that for you.

I'd take a look at Noticula, she is the patron of assassins of succubi which could fit.

Rovagug just cares for death and destruction in general and also works.

Lamashtu likes nightmares and terrorizing.

If you're going TWF I recommend a two level fighter dip. This gives you two extra feats and can really help you out. Improved Two Weapon Feint is great, and I personally like a mix of combat reflexes and improved trip, so people can't escape full attack range. Lore Warden Fighter makes that easy. It's actually quite easy to fit in though, so you could pull it off without the dip. Two-Weapon Fighting can be picked up straight off the bat, you won't really need double slice, Improved Two Weapon Fighting you can take at level 9 the soonest, so no need to worry about that, and greater two-weapon fighting is rarely worth it.

Here's Two-Weapon Feint which basically gives you free sneak attack every round.

I would see how far you can make it to start off with, but melee with a 10 CON and 14 AC seems...risky. I would definitely pick up the whole set of Bracers of Armor and Ring of Deflection later.

Edit: I may have copied it wrong but the first two links don't work.


Fixed Links:

Up-to-Date First character for reference to what I know of the game so far

Up-to-Date Layla Spreadsheet

Nokizaru class page. Alternate class of an alternate class.

Hopefully these work and everyone could have a chance at helping me out. If they don't work then I can't internet. I quit. Thank you much!


Consideration for nokizaru, a rogue archetype found here.


Your character sheet links aren't working, Never mind, jut saw the updated one, that works. I'm still going on a ramble though. Updated character sheet specific comments at the bottom as I read them.

You mentioned you retained sneak attack with this nokizaru but... It states it outright replaces it, then adds the little tricks caveat. This is just... really poorly written. As written, the archetype should lose sneak attack, and instead gains Bard casting. Otherwise, the benefit of gaining Bard casting, even specific to those schools, at the grand cost of... a few tricks no one ever even takes? That's silly and frankly dumb as hell.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but if this is your first/second character, drop all this 3pp stuff. Play the game as it was designed. Get used to it, know it, learn what's wrong with it, what's good with it. Then dabble in 3pp and weird things to scratch those itches Paizo either haven't done, or just did poorly.

Know this, the number one rule of pathfinder is this: Specialize. If you don't specialize, you're gonna be garbage. You wanna do TWFing? Go TWFing. You wanna try and maybe kind of make throwing work? Ninjas actually kind of can do it with Flurry of Stars, but the strength in this is with sneak attacks obviously. Point is, pick a weapon and play style, and stick with it. Having a backup is always encouraged, but don't carry around 3 different weapons or expect to be equally skilled in them all once magic weapons become a thing.

Personally, I'll always recommend going with a 2h weapon, even if you're some stealthy rogue/ninja. The power behind a 2h weapon is undeniable. They require basically no feats beyond Power Attack to get them working, and unlike TWFing they don't require a ton of feats, and you only have to worry about upgrading one weapon, not two. Also you're more likely to bust through DR. Not that TWFing doesn't have its benefits. All those attacks with sneak attack on each one is really nice, but it's just rarely worth the feat cost to me unless you're going say Ranger, or Slayer or something that can easily get you those feats, preferably while ignoring their stat/feat requirements.

I realize you're going hard on the RP angle here, but you do want to make sure you're still competent in game, or you're gonna be a bit bored.

Also, one last thing. Your DM is having you guys do 15 point buy... Please encourage them in the future to do 20pt. It's just better for everyone and helps to not discourage people from playing certain classes simply because they just don't have the points to spend on them. 15pt also punishes martials who really do need their stats spread out more, unlike casters like wizards who really only care about getting 18 int.

EDIT: Oh god I just noticed you're CE too. Please, please describe to us your intentions on being CE. I can think of few things more prone to disaster than a CE newbie, let alone a CE player of several years.

You have an 11 CHA. Reminder that your Nokizaru casting is... CHA based.


This archetype definitely seems to be more well defined as to what she would get when she reaches the next level. One of my problems with nokizaru is that the class page does not well define what it receives upon level up, and I am forced to assume it is the same as the ninja class progression but with the extra spell castings of a bard or something? still my weakest point is how magic works... only ever played a big tanky dwarf fighter.

I will definitely look into the eldritch scoundrel, thank you Turin.


I'll leave aside the archetype and mechanical things.

Backstory for a character can be a tricky thing. You want it to inform what your character is like, but even more importantly how and why she got to where the campaign started, and why she is interested in this particular campaign and participating in it. Having a backstory with baked in goals that don't fit the game the GM is running, and don't fit what the other characters are interested in, usually doesn't work so well. While you want enough to make an interesting and compelling character, often less is more.

Along those lines, Chaotic Evil is for experts only (if even then.) It is an alignment that pretty much says you can't work in a group, won't be reliable or trustworthy, and will pretty much be an enemy of anyone you meet. Even in a campaign where everyone is going to be evil, Chaotic Evil usually doesn't work.


Dwarves are Life wrote:
One of my problems with nokizaru is that the class page does not well define what it receives upon level up, and I am forced to assume it is the same as the ninja class progression but with the extra spell castings of a bard or something? still my weakest point is how magic works... only ever played a big tanky dwarf fighter

This is correct. The Nokizaru is the exact same thing as a Ninja, except it gains the same casting progression as a Bard, and loses sneak attack progression.

Frankly, that's a pretty good trade, even if you're limited to specifically Conjuration, Illusion, and then picking from Divination, Necromancy, and Abjuration, of which I'd recommend Abjuration first.

Abjuration gets you Shield, which really never loses it's usefulness and will help your terrible AC by leaps and bounds.

Illusion gets you the always fantastic Color Spray but with your 11 CHA your DCs are so utterly low they may as well be worthless, so you need to either replace your INT with CHA, or just not bother on anything with a DC. Also you can't actually cast 2nd levels spells with your CHA that low either so there is that too.


Just read through your post Heretak. Thank you in advance!

As for sneak attacks being replaced you are very much correct. Not sure how i glossed over that one sentence so many times, but i guess that happened. No sneak attack. I Will have to think about that.

as for using 3pp the only reason i am even considering it is for 2 reasons A. the game has many undefined situations as it stands and very much is left to the DM's discretion and B. I enjoy writing, a lot, so if I'm at work or just somewhere i don't care to be and I think of a character for a book (or for pathfinder) I immediately begin finding her edges and slowly form it into a model character. Then when I get home with this idea of Layla I open word (or for this a spreadsheet and the wiki) and go to town putting them together. A little tough being new to the whole D&D style, but I have only been in about 4 sessions of my first campaign and i already have 3 more characters I'm trying to put together. Layla may not be my second character i play. or my third. but she is my favorite so far!

Specializing. Layla is already a caster-TWF I don't intend on going two-handed anymore just because hiding the bulky weapon will be difficult. She is specialized in all light weapons so I figure I can stick with the two for a while, but as for casting I wonder if i should get a wand, staff, or maybe one of the rods i keep reading about that quicken or silent spellcast. Magic all around I'm still pretty rough about.

Being bored will not be a problem I'd gander. The DM already stated my current character is the most interesting he's had and we all laugh pretty constantly when we play. I still have fun even though he just stands his guard, protects the ranger and just swings his warhammer repeatedly at whomever gets too close. Oh and he left a love note to the barmaid he hadn't even talked to but he did wink at her!

More seriously I mostly intend her to use illusions and conjuration to confuse, blind, and debuff enemies. She will become invisible and flank around occasionally making noise or throwing a knife at someones head to make them turn away from and expose themselves to the other characters. She'll kill the back line when possible.

Yes 15pt buy. It's rough. would you please give me your best advise on how to attribute Layla with a 15 and 20pt buy. For CHA casting is that the "use magic devise" skill? because I would have thought it to be the "spell craft" skill. still reading everything i can about magic. It's pretty slow.

My DM is more on the strict side when it comes to creating the character. You get the skill ranks and attributes allotted to your class. roll for gold. but in game he is very much towards the lax side. I had fallen unconsciousness after a fight when our ranger rolled snake eyes on his attacks hitting me in the back for 13/20 of my health. But after more enemies had come he woke me up when the ranger had been knocked to 0 hp so i could attempt to save him. Should have left him to die...

CE- mostly for RP she enjoys tormenting her enemies. Very much so. She steals from pretty much everyone. Doesn't enjoy killing unless it's their family and they have to watch and then she can leave them alive afterwards. Pretty awful person. I'm going to chat with the DM about a campaign where the goal is to get something from someone very valuable or powerful. Something she could not get on her own. or at least without some meat to throw at the wall in a distraction. She will come upon the party. Will not join, but follows so she can have a shot at the prize. Continues to steal from the party members and private message the DM for them to roll a Perception check. Only when they beat her will she be caught in the act. Then probably threatened with her life until she reveals her knowledge of their goal and offers to go with them and help in exchange for not killing her. It will be more complex but that's the jist. Let me know what you think.

EDIT: obviously she will only be chosen for a campaign that the DM defines a goal that her greed can force her to join their group else she has no chance of attaining the goal.

EDIT II: Yes exactly what I was thinking Illusion and Conjuration into Abjucation could if done correctly keep her from being targeted for an attack very well. As for the CHA problem I first thought that all spell-related things scaled off INT so i can change it, but i'd like your opinions on the attribute distribution if you don't mind. for both 15pt and 20pt buy-ins.

EDIT 9999: On top of everything. Combat is fun and all, but I find we laugh or cry much more often in between the fights interacting with eachother or NPCs. So she won't be the greatest thing ever in combat, but she will be useful, and story, story, story is most important.


Lot of text, so gonna sort this one bit by bit.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
Specializing. Layla is already a caster-TWF I don't intend on going two-handed anymore just because hiding the bulky weapon will be difficult. She is specialized in all light weapons so I figure I can stick with the two for a while, but as for casting I wonder if i should get a wand, staff, or maybe one of the rods i keep reading about that quicken or silent spellcast. Magic all around I'm still pretty rough about.

Keep in mind, you need a free hand to cast, unless you take advantage of your Ki Pool.

"Every nokizaru spell has a somatic component, representing the special hand-signs the nokizaru must use to focus her mystic power. Nokizaru cannot use the Still Spell feat to remove somatic components from their nokizaru spells. By spending one ki point, a nokizaru may cast a single nokizaru spell without meeting its somatic component."

Unless you spend a ki point, you can't TWF and cast a spell without putting away one of your weapons. A Glove of Storing in later levels can get around this, but it's all quite the hassle in my book.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
More seriously I mostly intend her to use illusions and conjuration to confuse, blind, and debuff enemies. She will become invisible and flank around occasionally making noise or throwing a knife at someones head to make them turn away from and expose themselves to the other characters. She'll kill the back line when possible.

This is where competency and efficiency help, which is what I meant by being "bored". If you're not capable of being effective in combat, or accomplish your characters goals/vision in combat, things can get boring and you can get disheartened. If you're playing a Big Dumb Fighter then that's your job, you hit things, but something like this is much more complex, and there's little room in Pathfinder to adequately perform all of the above without careful picking. You need to ask yourself the question. "What is my specialty?" That answer can't be 4 different things. It needs to be 1 thing you're really good at, and another you're still somewhat good at. You're losing sneak attack, and the ability to get an extra attack with your ki pool, but you're gaining spells. Damage is not going to be your strength, nor will killing, especially if you're insistent on going TWFing without sneak attack to bolster it. You need to focus more on your spells here, and TWFing is just going to take away from that, especially since as mentioned, you can't actually cast a spell while TWFing. Do you see where I'm going?

Also "throwing a knife at someones head" is quite possibly the worst use of a standard action you could do since a dinky 1d4 dagger will accomplish nothing. This isn't real life, it's Pathfinder.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
Yes 15pt buy. It's rough. would you please give me your best advise on how to attribute Layla with a 15 and 20pt buy. For CHA casting is that the "use magic devise" skill? because I would have thought it to be the "spell craft" skill. still reading everything i can about magic. It's pretty slow.

First, Use Magic Device, or UMD is a CHA-based skill to allow non-caster, like the Roguish sort, to cast spells using wands and such, they could not normally be able to cast. For casters, it allows them to cast spells they also would not normally be able to cast, such as a Wizard being able to cast a spell normally only a Cleric could cast through a wand, or scroll, etc.

Spellcraft is for identifying magic, and magic items. You see a Wizard casting some spell, you roll spellcraft to try to identify what the spell just cast was, or to identify a magic item or potion you found, or identify some weird magical aura you detected, etc. Stuff like that.

As for pt buy, well I can tell you what I would do personally, which is again not entirely what you would do. I like STR builds after all with 2h weapons. Sticking with DEX though, going forward we are faced with a choice as I mentioned earlier. You need to acknowledge your goals. Are you a spellcaster... or a melee fighter? You can't be both. The archetype is heavily pushing you towards a caster, so that's where I'm going.

Firstly, you're an elf, that should probably change, since as mentioned, INT doesn't help you. So we're looking for DEX and CHA, or races with a floating +2. Of that, we can try Azata-blooded Aasimar, Dhampir, Drow, Half-Elf, Human, Half-Orc, Ifrit, Rakshasa-spawn Tiefling, or Vishkanya. I'm probably missing a few. From what I get, your character may fit well with Dhampir, Drow, Half-Elf, Human, Tiefling, or Vishkanya, although Aasimar is always a nice bit of flavor when you have an evil Aasimar turning away from their blood. Of course I presume your DM will likely have complaints with a few of these, so lets just go with the Half-Elf to somewhat keep your Elf idea with the floating +2 to CHA, but I'd recommend checking out the above races, one may speak out to you better.

As I'm doing this with a 15pt buy and it just really makes me want to stab someone honestly, but you could try something like this maybe.
15pt: 10 STR 14 DEX 13 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 14+2 CHA
20pt: 11 STR 14 DEX 13 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 15+2 CHA

I'd love to take a hatchet to your INT or WIS to free some more points but you never want to neglect WIS, especially when it's your weak save, so we are trying to keep it at least as a +1. INT has to suffer in the 15pt, but you get a good number of skillpoints anyway. Little tip with CON, if you have a spare point with not much to do, try to fit it into CON. Unlike other stats which only increase on each new even number, CON also has the extra benefit of letting you survive in negative hp up to your con number, so a 13 CON is actually better than a 12 CON. You never know, it may save you.

Obviously I'm not perfect, and I'm sure others will have their own suggestion for a stat array, but that's what I'd probably go with. Something similar to a caster-focused Bard. Your DEX needs to take a back seat to CHA. As a result, you can not TWF with DEX that low.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
My DM is more on the strict side when it comes to creating the character. You get the skill ranks and attributes allotted to your class. roll for gold. but in game he is very much towards the lax side. I had fallen unconsciousness after a fight when our ranger rolled snake eyes on his attacks hitting me in the back for 13/20 of my health. But after more enemies had come he woke me up when the ranger had been knocked to 0 hp so i could attempt to save him. Should have left him to die...

Not entirely sure I understood what happened here...

Dwarves are Life wrote:


CE- mostly for RP she enjoys tormenting her enemies. Very much so. She steals from pretty much everyone. Doesn't enjoy killing unless it's their family and they have to watch and then she can leave them alive afterwards. Pretty awful person. I'm going to chat with the DM about a campaign where the goal is to get something from someone very valuable or powerful. Something she could not get on her own. or at least without some meat to throw at the wall in a distraction. She will come upon the party. Will not join, but follows so she can have a shot at the prize. Continues to steal from the party members and private message the DM for them to roll a Perception check. Only when they beat her will she be caught in the act. Then probably threatened with her life until she reveals her knowledge of their goal and offers to go with them and help in exchange for not killing her. It will be more complex but that's the jist. Let me know what you think.

No. No. No. No. Absolutely not. Also No. Do not be stupid evil. Do not steal from the party. Do not harm the party. If you have any intentions of doing any of this, tell everyone BEFORE you do it. Let everyone know out of game that you will be stealing, that you will be screwing them over. See how they feel about it. If the players are totally cool with it, then sure, go be stupid evil, otherwise, No. Stay far, far away from PVP. You know what's gonna happen? They're gonna realize you're shifty, and they're gonna kill you. There goes all that backstory you wrote. Or they'll just say "this chick is crazy, let's just skip out of town without her" And then... they're gone, you're gone. No violence, no fight, they don't have to worry about you, and you've been kicked from the group. Roll a new character.

There's a reason evil characters are banned from most games, especially chaotic evil. Consider looking into Lawful Evil. It's an evil alignment that can actually function in a party. It's more about manipulating the party, while still staying on their good side. It's like being the Bad Cop. You're fine with a little torture, and murder to help the party, and commit acts the others can't quite bring themselves to do. It's realizing the party is the vehicle to your goals, and acknowledging that without the party, you are losing ground.


Could Layla utilize weapon cords to drop a weapon immediately to perform her hand signs and then either attack with the other hand or pick her weapon back up?.

I realize most of Layla's action will be spent concealed and spell casting. only going in to interrupt some magic channeling ability or to provide a well timed flank. If Layla were to go into two-hand weapon would it be plausible to for her to release one hand from the elven curved blade allowing the weapon to rest on her shoulder while her offhand performs the hand signs, or is that still too real life?

As for this class vs fighter in combat. Yeah she will be much more difficult. Like playing chess vs checkers, but I definitely enjoy chess much more. Honestly, in our current campaign (first for all of us except the dm) we should all be dead right about now. Our DM is mainly keeping us alive because we play smart instead of just charging into battle swords a swingin'. And we are all just in it to have fun anyways.

The concept is that Layla gets caught stealing from the party after overhearing their goals to retrieve something she wants for herself. Then she offers information and her necessary skills to help reach that goal. She can be Lawful Evil in that she won't actively harm the party for no real reason because they are of more worth to her goal but other people are just fair game (well mostly their valuables anyways), and maybe her alignment shifts throughout the campaign. I don't know. All in the story to us really.

I know in our group that we could make this work, and nobody is really prone to getting upset over the game, but everyone enjoys the unexpected situations we get thrust into. I just enjoy the character creation portion a lot also, and I want to learn how to make this character a better fit to the rules so i can look back from future characters to kind of keep that flow. This is making me think twice about everything while trying to fit the square peg into the round hole and it is quite helpful. Thank you for all this advice.


Dwarves are Life wrote:

Could Layla utilize weapon cords to drop a weapon immediately to perform her hand signs and then either attack with the other hand or pick her weapon back up?.

I realize most of Layla's action will be spent concealed and spell casting. only going in to interrupt some magic channeling ability or to provide a well timed flank. If Layla were to go into two-hand weapon would it be plausible to for her to release one hand from the elven curved blade allowing the weapon to rest on her shoulder while her offhand performs the hand signs, or is that still too real life?

Yes. You could purchase a weapon cord for your left handed weapon and drop it to cast a spell, but it'll still burn your move action in the next turn to get it back into your hand.

Yes, it is entirely possible to take your hand off a 2h weapon to cast a spell by say resting it on your shoulder or something. This is a free action, and a free action to regrip the weapon after the spell is cast.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
As for this class vs fighter in combat. Yeah she will be much more difficult. Like playing chess vs checkers, but I definitely enjoy chess much more. Honestly, in our current campaign (first for all of us except the dm) we should all be dead right about now. Our DM is mainly keeping us alive because we play smart instead of just charging into battle swords a swingin'. And we are all just in it to have fun anyways.

That's certainly good, and given you're all very new I totally understand your DM using so-called "kid gloves" with you guys, but they will eventually come off, ya know?

Dwarves are Life wrote:
The concept is that Layla gets caught stealing from the party after overhearing their goals to retrieve something she wants for herself. Then she offers information and her necessary skills to help reach that goal. She can be Lawful Evil in that she won't actively harm the party for no real reason because they are of more worth to her goal but other people are just fair game (well mostly their valuables anyways), and maybe her alignment shifts throughout the campaign. I don't know. All in the story to us really.

PCs are unpredictable, just ask any DM. You don't know what they'll do if they catch you like that. As mentioned, I strongly advise reading up on Lawful Evil and trying to fit it into this characters personality.

Dwarves are Life wrote:
I know in our group that we could make this work, and nobody is really prone to getting upset over the game, but everyone enjoys the unexpected situations we get thrust into. I just enjoy the character creation portion a lot also, and I want to learn how to make this character a better fit to the rules so i can look back from future characters to kind of keep that flow. This is making me think twice about everything while trying to fit the square peg into the round hole and it is quite helpful. Thank you for all this advice.

It's one thing when everyone is having a good laugh about silly things and dumb things the PCs are doing. It's another when the party rogue is blatantly stealing the parties hard earned loot, and slowing down everyone elses Wealth By Level. It's a problem for the DM too since you're now weakening everyone else in the party and damaging the balance and they have to now attempt to modify their own campaign to accommodate for your PCs selfishness.

You're still new, so a lot of this stuff I'm talking about is kind of coming from that whole grizzled veteran outlook, which is kind of odd for you probably, but it's largely the truth of the matter. There are simply several large things which are just major flaws within Pathfinder that you eventually have to realize and avoid, or find ways to build around. Pathfinder has many, many choices and options, and about 80% of them are typically really, really bad. It is indeed exactly as you described, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.


The option of the Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype with Unchained Rogue is quite similar to this class you're looking at, but they get some Sneak Attack, some Ninja Tricks that use spell slots instead of charisma, and the Unchained Rogue's ability to simply do damage with dexterity. Just throwing it out there, since it would probably work out as a major mechanical improvement for an Elf; pretty much everything they do keys off of dexterity and intelligence.

Eldritch Scoundrel.

Unchained Rogue.


@Heretak

Our DM is also fairly new. one maybe two campaigns and ya he is using kid gloves for the first game, but he also just wants to have fun over anything else. I don't know just the way it is. He's not being easy on us. almost killed us twice within four sessions, but he works hard to balance it. Not really planning on playing with anyone else it's just kind of a side thing for us to do in our free time while everyone is off at college.

Yes, totally agree PCs are unpredictable, but unless someone else picks an evil character (which in our group is a low chance because everyone really just wants neutral so they have very few restrictions on what they can do and not have to worry about alignment.) they probably won't just try to kill a random pickpocket in the middle of the town streets. But i will have to discuss the whole idea with the DM before hand to see if we even want to deal with it.

I have been debating lawful evil, but regardless of either way I go I get almost the same results. That is, the character would end up following the party (they look like they have things she wants), over hears what they intend to do (campaign goal of high value to her), She wants the goal for herself, follows them around a while, tries to steal, gets caught, threatened, doesn't want to lose her chance at the goal, offers information and services she can give to make the goal much more reachable, DOES NOT continue stealing or harming the party because they are of more worth alive with their equipment because she cannot hope to get near the objective without them... Not a flawless plan by any means, but also not many safe ways for any evil characters to get a party and stay in one. I thought it was a pretty good shot at a safe story. Her alignment may shift through the campaign because the party paladin and cleric keep trying to convince her to be good, or maybe she is attracted to or becomes emotionally attached to another party member. Not a predictable variable.

Yeah, I completely understand your experience with the game gives better knowledge of what works and doesn't, but it's never 100% for sure. Obviously a dwarf wizard with dual wielded whips and an elven curved blade won't work, but this coooould, maybe. If she is shunned or dies. Next character. I've already got more character sheets and concepts filling in. Just a fun idea. Thanks much!

@BadBird

The unchained rogue is fantastic for DEX since having to level up to get the feats that would allow DEX atk and dmg rolls sounds like a very weak start when you have no points in STR.

What I think would work the best would be the nokizaru, but as an alternate to unchained rogue instead of ninja. (still losing sneak attack to gain bardic casting) sounds like it would be a stronger start to me, but I'm no pro so let me know what you think. Thanks much!


Technically a Nokizaru won't work with Unchained Rogue, since it uses Ninja features. There's a third-party Unchained Ninja out there I think.


I forgot there was an unchained ninja... It's been a long day sorry. Would the two be compatible as a regular ninja>nokizaru would be? I don't see why not, but I should make sure.


It should work mechanically, and at least as far as Paizo goes, you're allowed to combine Rogue Archetypes with Unchained Rogue if the class features used/replaced 'fit'.


I'd still recommend not stealing from the party ever, and if you do, do it once, and get caught doing it, so nothing is actually lost. Also the party doesn't need to know your goals at all. Earlier I played an AP with an Asmodean Cleric. My character kinda got thrown into the party since we were all out for vengeance on someone, but after a series of events I realized I was in a good position to gain a great deal of power by sticking with the party, so I did, and became friends with them even. I knew I may need to betray them in the end, but I'd try my hardest to make them see that my goals were for the best. I obviously never informed them of any of this, though as an Asmodean they knew I had ulterior motives. In the end I sacrificed myself to save the city... a wish gone horribly wrong.

Planning for an alignment shift is an idea but it's best left open ended. Base the alignment shift on the actions of the party, not a pre-built plan. Also keep in mind Paladins are more prone to kill evil than redeem it. Sarenrae is an exception but even then Paladins of Sarenrae are expected to kill evil if it does not go along with the redemption.

As for unchained ninja nokizaru, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Remember, all nokizaru alters is the ki pool, and replaces sneak attack.

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