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the spell (Hanspur's Flotsam Vessel) write up says it "is always considered to be traveling downstream for purpose of calculating travel speed, regardless of its actual direction."
CRB gives the speed of a raft as 1/2 mile per hour, plus "If going downsteam add the speed of the current (typically 3 miles per hour) to the speed of the vehicle."
SO - would this give a Flotsam Vessel a speed of 3.5 miles per hour? What does that translate to on a tactical grid map?
Has anyone actually figured this out before?
Your grid map travel is going to be based on the scale of the map, so without that there's no answer. And yeah, it can go 3.5 miles an hour, ignores the inability to go upstream since it's always going downstream, can always use current rather than muscle power, and can go 24hours a day if someone is available to steer it.
That seems pretty dang fast really.
1 mile = 5280 feet.
5280 / 60 (minutes per hour) = 88 feet per minute.
88 feet per minute / 10 (number of rounds in a minute) = 8.8 feet per round.
8.8 feet per round multplied by our speed of 3.5 = 30.1 feet per round on the 5' grid tactical map.
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Again, thanks for your help - and as often happens when someone solves a problem, they get more problems to solve!
SO, here's another question on Hanspur's Flotsam Vessel.
the Effect line says: "raft large enough for caster and one passenger/2 levels"
but the description says: "The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square, increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess."
now... how big is the raft created from the following casters?
a 4th level Cleric (CL4)- 3 squares? or 2 squares?
a 4th level Ranger (CL1)- 1 square? or 1/2 square?
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Again, thanks for your help - and as often happens when someone solves a problem, they get more problems to solve!
SO, here's another question on Hanspur's Flotsam Vessel.
the Effect line says: "raft large enough for caster and one passenger/2 levels"
but the description says: "The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square, increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess."now... how big is the raft created from the following casters?
a 4th level Cleric (CL4)- 3 squares? or 2 squares?
a 4th level Ranger (CL1)- 1 square? or 1/2 square?
CL 1 5' square
CL 2-3 2x5' squaresCL 4-5 3x5' squares
The "level" is always the caster level of the caster, not the class level.
And, when it says "and additional X for every 2 caster level" or "X/2 levels" you always need 2 whole levels to get to added benefits.
When it says that you get the added benefit every X levels beyond a base CL, you need to first subtract the base CL and then divide the remaining CL by X, FRD, to get how many times you get the extra benefit.
In this instance there is no base, you get an extra square every 2 levels, so the first extra square is at level 2 and the second at level 4.
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ok - I understood your response all the way up to the last line - which seems to be in conflict with the rest of the reply.
"In this instance there is no base,..." does this mean there is no first square? and thus the calculation is CL/2 instead of 1 + CL/2?
so, does the two example casters calculations work like this?
Fourth Caster Level caster
a) "...5 feet square, increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels..." thus 1+2 squares
b) "raft large enough for caster and one passenger/2 levels" thus 2 squares
And what do we do when the Caster Level is an odd number, thus giving a ".5" result? Normally I would think this would be rounded down, but in the case of a Caster Level of 1 (which a 4th level Ranger would be) that would result in zero squares... is this a problem?
The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square,
The smallest size is always 5'.
...increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess.
For every two caster levels increase the size by another 5'.
What Diego is referring to as a base is that some spells says something like "For every 2 levels beyond 7th do something". Caster level 7 in this example would be the base. So the formula for additional effects would be (Current_Caster_Level - 7) / 2
The flotsam vessel spell you are asking about does not have that wording, so its "base" is effectively 0. So the above formula becomes (Current_Caster_Level - 0) / 2. Which simplifies to Current_Caster_Level / 2.
But the spell also tells us you get 1 square. Additional squares beyond the first are added dependent on caster level.
So answer A in your last post. Or in other words, the exact formula (given the wording on this spell) is 1 + (Current_Caster_Level / 2).
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The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square,
The smallest size is always 5'.
...increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess.
For every two caster levels increase the size by another 5'.
What Diego is referring to as a base is that some spells says something like "For every 2 levels beyond 7th do something". Caster level 7 in this example would be the base. So the formula for additional effects would be (Current_Caster_Level - 7) / 2
The flotsam vessel spell you are asking about does not have that wording, so its "base" is effectively 0. So the above formula becomes (Current_Caster_Level - 0) / 2. Which simplifies to Current_Caster_Level / 2.
But the spell also tells us you get 1 square. Additional squares beyond the first are added dependent on caster level.
So answer A in your last post. Or in other words, the exact formula (given the wording on this spell) is 1 + (Current_Caster_Level / 2).
First of all, thanks for taking the time to walk me thru this...
now - I need to say that in the past your explanation above is what I have ruled as the GM, and is what my current ruling is... but in my last game this came up again with one player sticking to what they understood the Effect line as saying... that is "raft large enough for caster and one passenger/2 levels", which seems to indicate that the number of squares created would be CL/2, with no starting square that the additional squares are added to. in other words "CL/2" and not "1+CL/2).
is this a conflict in the spell write-up? where the Description gives one formula (1+CL/2) and the Effect line gives a different one (CL/2)? and in most cases of conflict between the Parameter lines and the Description, we normally go with the Effect Line. That's at the core of the players issue...
The idea is, it's always big enough for the caster. That is where the base 1 5' square comes in. For every 2 levels, you get space for one more passenger - so you add one more 5' square. I don't understand what your player is arguing for or why, really. They want less space on their raft?
First of all, thanks for taking the time to walk me thru this...
No problem.
now - I need to say that in the past your explanation above is what I have ruled as the GM, and is what my current ruling is... but in my last game this came up again with one player sticking to what they understood the Effect line as saying... that is "raft large enough for caster and one passenger/2 levels", which seems to indicate that the number of squares created would be CL/2, with no starting square that the additional squares are added to. in other words "CL/2" and not "1+CL/2).is this a conflict in the spell write-up? where the Description gives one formula (1+CL/2) and the Effect line gives a different one (CL/2)? and in most cases of conflict between the Parameter lines and the Description, we normally go with the Effect Line. That's at the core of the players issue...
I don't consider those two statements to be at odds with each other.
raft large enough for caster...
Is equivalent to
The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square...
while
...and one passenger/2 levels
is equivalent to
...increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess.
ie, they are both saying the same thing, just using different words to convey that meaning.
So the raft is always large enough for the caster. Additional passengers is the only part that is level dependent.
(Assuming we don't dive into issues of casters that are not medium/small in size. eg, what happens if the caster is gargantuan in size?)
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Wait... the last two posters have pointed out an error on my part (maybe).
how many creatures can be carried on the raft created by a caster? the write up says "Each 5-foot section of the raft can carry two Medium passengers or 300 pounds of cargo".
I think that seems to be saying that each of the raft sections could carry two Medium creatures... so, if you have a party of 4 medium adventurers, you will need a raft of at least 2 squares.
but it looks like Ian Bell and bbangerter are saying that a raft of 2 squares could only carry 3 creatures (The Caster plus 2 passengers)
... is that correct?
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The idea is, it's always big enough for the caster. That is where the base 1 5' square comes in. For every 2 levels, you get space for one more passenger - so you add one more 5' square. I don't understand what your player is arguing for or why, really. They want less space on their raft?
Let's see if I can walk you thru the issue the player had.
The party of 6 adventurers need to cross a large body of water. They have a 7th level Ranger (who has a Caster Level of 4) and a 7th level Cleric (CL 7).
Each 5' section of a raft can carry 2 persons (or 300 lbs of cargo)...
Does the Ranger create 3 sections or only 2? Can the Rangers raft carry all 6 party members (3 sections) or only 4 (2 sections)?
The answer to the above question determines if the Cleric needs to instead use a 2nd level spell to create the raft, as her Caster Level is large enough that she is able to create one more section than the ranger, but at a cost of a higher level spell (that could be used later).
There are other complications in this situation (as there always are) but I think that is the core of the Issue. Do they need to use the Clerics 2nd level casting or can they get by with the Rangers 1st level version of the spell?
(yeah, and more than one of the players were trying to remember the riddle with the farmer, the chicken and the bag of corn trying to cross a stream with only enough room for... and then the barbarian states that the farmer should kill the chicken for dinner, make whisky from the corn and take up adventuring! ARRRG! - clearly, this is a Pathfinder game alright. Can't stay on topic...)
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Huh, reading the full description of the spell, this thing is a hot mess. The description seems to be confused about whether a 5' section can only carry one passenger or two.
"...one passenger/2 levels" and "...increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess" seem to imply each 5' section is one passenger. Then the description states 2 passengers per 5' section.
Does the caster get a whole 5' section to themselves? Or does the caster with no bonus levels allow for two passengers? Or does the caster with no bonus levels only make a 3'x3' raft?
You're going to have to make a GM call on this one.
Personally, I would ignore the "Each 5-foot section of the raft can carry two Medium passengers..." as it appears to be at odds with effect line of the spell and the rest of the description. AND, who wants to sit on a raft like you are packed into a car on a family trip for 6 hours - only everyone in the family is an adult sized person, wearing bulky armor and backpacks to boot. An hour or two you might suffer it, but much longer than that and dad is going to have to pull the car over and leave someone at the side of the road. Probably the one that didn't bother to shower that morning.
To me its clear the ranger would create 3 sections. So the question comes down to, how many people do you want to allow on each section?
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It is written badly, but our preconceptions affected us.
Generally when a spell says "the caster + 1 person/x levels" it means that you add a person every x levels.
But the text of the spell instead shows that the writer instead means "Each 5-foot section of the raft can carry two Medium passengers or 300 pounds of cargo."
So:
CL 1 - you get space for 2 persons or 300 lbs of cargo because the spell states that "The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square"
CL 2-3 - still a 5'x5' raft that carries 2 persons or 300 lbs of cargo. The rules say that you need a multiplier of X (2 in this instance) to get the next benefit.
CL 4-5 - 2 5'x5' section, with a total carrying capacity of 4 persons or 300 lbs.
And so on for the next CLs.
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SO... yeah, "...reading the full description of the spell, this thing is a hot mess..." thank you! I agree...
then there is also the option of
Number of 5' sections = 1 section plus an additional section per 2 caster levels
Section Compacity = each section can carry 2 medium persons/300 lbs of stuff -
this means that if you get a heavy dude with lots of stuff, maybe he needs a section by himself (maybe more than one? 200 lb. half orc carrying 150 lbs of stuff would need more than one section...), but if you get a couple of wizard types (98lbs each, straining under the 20 lbs of adventuring gear they each carry) they can both ride on one...
It also means that a 4th level caster can likely create a raft able to transport the adventuring party (total of 900 lbs? up to 6 PCs?)
NOW - who can guide the raft? does the caster need to be on it at all times? or can you cast it, set it on it's way and let someone else drive? even if you get off?
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Neither the text nor the effect line says that you get 1 raft + 1 every 2 levels. They say that you get a minimum of 1 raft, so even at CL 1, you get one. The next one is at level 4.
A 5'x5' section of the raft officially has space for only 2 persons, regardless of weight. As it lasts a decently long time and there can be some need to move around while traveling, especially if there is a chance of combat, I would impose that limitation, unless there is an incapacitated person that has to stay put most of the time.
Mixing persons and cargo seems perfectly reasonable.
The spell has a range of close and is a conjuration. Generally, those can move away from the caster without problems.
It says "The vessel functions as a normal raft,", so I would require and allow people to guide it by rafting, as normal. The advantage is that moves at top speed in all directions.
Considering all the above, I think that the caster can create the raft and give it to other people without problems. Nothing in the spell description says otherwise. I think it is similar to Phantom steed in that regard.
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Neither the text nor the effect line says that you get 1 raft + 1 every 2 levels....
"The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square, increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess."
IMHO, that says the caster would get a raft at CL1, plus "an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess." or 1+1 at CL2, and 1+2 at CL4...
I mean, I would write that as 1 + 1 for every 2 caster levels or 1 + 1/2CL
But I guess I just don't understand it...
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Neither the text nor the effect line says that you get 1 raft + 1 every 2 levels....
"The smallest raft created by the spell is roughly 5 feet square, increasing by an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess."
IMHO, that says the caster would get a raft at CL1, plus "an additional 5 feet square for every 2 caster levels you possess." or 1+1 at CL2, and 1+2 at CL4...
I mean, I would write that as 1 + 1 for every 2 caster levels or 1 + 1/2CL
But I guess I just don't understand it...
True, the Effect and the Text say two different things. Choose one.
In the meantime, I will get some friends and drag the creator into a dark alley to explain to him how you write a coherent text. ;-)