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My Tiefling Paladin is about to hit 8th level and I'm trying to decide the best way to go with his remaining levels. FWIW, he's taking the Oath of Vengeance & Holy Guide archetypes. Should I stick with Paladin or dip into Oracle? If Oracle, which Mysteries would be the best fit? Is there something other than Oracle that I should be considering?
He's been damned effective up to this point, and I want to make the best informed choices moving forward.
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I retrained out of Oath of Vengeance at level 11 to get Aura of Justice, because letting everyone Smite is hilarious.
Level 3 paladin spells get interesting too. Angelic Aspect gives you a fly speed which makes a big difference. Litany of Escape is good too.
With the way Smite damage just keeps growing, and in the case of Oath of Vengeance, your number of Smites per day too, there's much to be said in favor of keeping up with pure paladin.
I retrained out of Oath of Vengeance at level 11 to get Aura of Justice, because letting everyone Smite is hilarious.
Level 3 paladin spells get interesting too. Angelic Aspect gives you a fly speed which makes a big difference. Litany of Escape is good too.
With the way Smite damage just keeps growing, and in the case of Oath of Vengeance, your number of Smites per day too, there's much to be said in favor of keeping up with pure paladin.
Not to mention the Tiefling FCB... I'm leaning that way, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking any particularly effective option.
Since this got moved from the PFS forum for some reason, any respondents please be advised that this is specifically for PFS play.
What's your current build and what is your goal with the character mechanically?
What's your current build and what is your goal with the character mechanically?
Really just your classic tank, able to both draw fire and take or mitigate damage for others... and maybe put the beat down every now and then as well. A steady presence that the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about and can plan their tactics around.
The character as of 8th level:
Pitspawn Tiefling 8th level Paladin (Oath of Vengeance, Holy Guide)
STR - 16 [18]
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 7
CHA - 20 [22]
Racial Abilities:
Darkvision 60'
Cold Resistance 5, Electricity Resistance 5, Fire Resistance 5
Fiendish Sprinter (+10’ when running, charging or withdrawing)
Maw (Bite deals 1d6 damage as a primary natural attack)
Prehensile Tail (retrieve stowed items as a swift action)
Traits:
Suicidal (Make self the target of an attack against an adjacent ally 1/day)
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Feats:
1st - Fey Foundling
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
6th - Teamwork: Lastwall Phalanx
7th - Power Attack
Paladin Abilities:
Detect Evil at will
Lay on Hands 16/day (heal self 6d6+20 self as a swift action or heal others 6d6 as a std action)
Smite Evil 3/day (+6 AC, +6 attack, +8 damage, expend 2 uses of LoH for additional Smite)
Divine Bond 1/day (+2 enhancement and/or gain Merciful, Keen, Flaming, Flaming Burst, Disruption, Defending, Holy or Axiomatic qualities)
Favored Terrain: +2 Initiative, Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth & Survival in Urban setting
Aura of Courage (Immune to Fear effects, +4 save vs. Fear effects for all allies within 10’)
Aura of Resolve (Immune to Charm effects, +4 save vs. Charm effects for all allies within 10’)
Expend 1 Smite to grant Lastwall Phalanx feat to all allies within 30’ for 6 rounds as a standard action
Spells:
Hero’s Defiance (x2), Lesser Restoration (x3), Shield Other (x2), Bull’s Strength
Skills:
Diplomacy (+17), Knowledge: Religion (+7), Knowledge: Geography (+4), Profession: Guide (+2), Survival (+2), Sense Motive (+2)
Gear:
Fullplate +1, Greatsword +1, Darkwood Composite Bow (MW, +3 STR), Kukri, Cloak of Resistance +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Headband of Inspiring Charisma +2, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Bracers of the Merciful Knight, Wand of Cure Light Wounds (42 charges), 2 Pearls of Power (1st)
Combat: (non-Smite)
Initiative +3, Movement 20’ (30’ when running, charging or withdrawing)
HP 68 (8d10+16), AC 22 (Touch 11, Flat 21)
Cold Resistance 5, Electricity Resistance 5, Fire Resistance 5
Fort +15, Reflex +10, Will +11 (Immune to Charm, Fear, Disease)
Attack: Greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+7, Crit. 19+ x2), Bite +7 (1d6+2, Crit 20, x2)
Overall I'd say the biggest weaknesses the character has right now is his relative lack of mobility and his skill set, though to be fair a non-Human Paladin can't expect much in that department. Though I feel like I'm maxing out my Lay on Hands right now that's not technically true and I get my next Favored Terrain and an additional use of Divine Bond at 9th level, so I'm leaning towards sticking with Paladin, but...
Why not pick up Greater and Ultimate Mercy?
As for mobility, you could aim for Boots of Speed. The extra movement on demand would give you the speed you need.
I'm seriously considering those as my final two feats and Boots of Speed is definitely being considered (though it's rare someone in the party doesn't have Haste at higher levels). What I'm looking for is some advice regarding whether or not there are better options than straight Paladin.
I don't know if this affects you in your quest in anyway, but the paladin in my campaign went into Hellknight around this time. Depending on what you may end up fighting after 8th level and beyond, I think it's worth considering. It'd give you a whole new set of alignments you can smite.
I don't know if this affects you in your quest in anyway, but the paladin in my campaign went into Hellknight around this time. Depending on what you may end up fighting after 8th level and beyond, I think it's worth considering. It'd give you a whole new set of alignments you can smite.
Please tell me how you justified that in the story!
Sorry. I like Hellknights and Paladins seem like the best entry class. But you know, the whole, cheliax situation...
Maybe not what you are looking for, but I've heard that Paladin mixed with Life Oracle with Life Link mystery is one of the best options for party tank.
At lower levels especially, I think it can be, with the Life Link mystery and additional channels, but once a Paladin gets multiple uses of the Shield Other spell, I'm not entirely sure what the Oracle levels offer other than a porentially burdensome curse.
I've looked long and hard at Oracle, taking the Battle, Lore, Ancestor, Outer Rift and Life Mysteries and I think at this point more Paladin levels are better. They DO get some nice toys, though. Lore in particular with Sidestep secret.
I only have 3 levels to play with at this point really. Hm... what about a Dual-Cursed Oracle?
I could go Lore with Sidestep Secret and grab a mithril chain shirt. That'll up my mobility and my Reflex saves significantly, then grab Misfortune as my second Mystery. Neither ability is level-dependent.
My Curses could be Legalistic and Powerless Prophecy - either would be prime options to advance, though I'll admit that being staggered in the first round of combat seems a bit scary for a tank-ish character.
Scratch that earlier musing - I missed the errata/FAQ that gutted the usefulness of an Oracle dip, particularly when it comes to Sidestep. Its getting pretty tough to keep up with the way Paizo goes after popular character concepts, but I've started simply defaulting to the assumption that if its fun and effective and it hasn't been killed yet, it soon will be.
I think the direction you want to take the build is the biggest factor in whether a dip is appropriate or not. The way I would play your build is to always be in the middle of the fight and taking hits as often as I can since your self-healing is through the roof. Assuming this is how you play and how you want to keep playing, going the greater/ultimate mercy route will be useful, even if you typically don't have enough lay on hands during the adventure to utilize the raise dead ability (oath of vengeance and self-healing being your other options). I think it is a powerful ability that makes your character incredibly useful as levels get higher. Especially since you don't have the same limitations of breath of life, you basically have a free raise dead every day.
If patching up your mobility is a serious concern you have, a 1 level dip into cleric for the travel domain might be worth it. That delays a lot of your abilities though, but if mobility is a huge concern it could be worth it. I personally wouldn't do it though. Boots of Striding of and Springing are also an option.
Honestly, a 1 level dip into Lore Oracle would be perfect, IF they hadn't wrecked it with that batch of errata.
I honestly think that Lay on Hands as-written is one of the most powerful tools in the game, especially when you can burn them for other uses (don't forget the teamwork feat). I don't see a post-8th dip hurting this character at all, but I just can't seem to find anything particularly worthwhile - not anymore at least.
Scratch that earlier musing - I missed the errata/FAQ that gutted the usefulness of an Oracle dip, particularly when it comes to Sidestep. Its getting pretty tough to keep up with the way Paizo goes after popular character concepts, but I've started simply defaulting to the assumption that if its fun and effective and it hasn't been killed yet, it soon will be.Huh, what'd they do to it this time?
Was it in a faq? Because that'd be hilarious.
Edit, okay it's the old one you're talking about, I think. The one from 2014 or so.
Just use the Nature's Whispers of the Nature mystery. Does the same thing, except AC & CMD instead of AC & Reflex, so there's no Divine Grace overlap.
Well it's the Reflex save I was mostly hoping to shore up, but looking at it honestly, that might be the best way to go. CMD at higher levels is a real potential Achilles heel, especially being so difficult to kill in the usual ways.