Unchained Rogue, Prototype Half-orc


Advice

1 to 50 of 73 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

My first Rogue.

Str 14, dex 18, con 14, int 12, wis 10, cha 8

alternate racial: sacred tattoos

traits: reactionary, fate's favored

Feats: Weapon Finesse(bonus),Improved Initiative, two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting

Early Rogue Talents are: Minor Magic Trap Spotter

Studded Leather, pretty standard. Chainshirt after a little money, and Mithril Chainshirt later. Maybe a Mithril Buckler as well.

weapon of choice is Short Sword. Its not as good as a Rapier for critical, but as its a light weapon it can be duel-wielded and receive benefits from feats like Weapon Bonus and Improved Critical for both hands. ShortBow to start and a Composite Shortbow for later.
=========================
Its definitely more directed at combat than stealth or skill, but those arent neglected severely. I know half-elves have skill focus and a perception bonus. Halflings have a stealth bonus due to size and are focused around Charisma.


I would definitely check out two-weapon feint, and there is an improved version as well. Trip is pretty fun for TWF builds so I would recommend two levels of Lore Warden for Combat Expertise and two bonus feats. I like to use trip and combat reflexes to force enemies to stay next to me so I can full attack.

I would lower STR (like to a 12) and raise DEX to a 17 preracial, 19 post. This does slightly lower the bow damage but I think it's worth it as your melee is completely dependent on it. Plus, Sneak Attack Ranged doesn't work without special investment.

Other than that it looks pretty good. I've been working on a similar build that uses the knife master archetype for d8s in Sneak Attack.


One thing I think about for offense is getting Wakizashis as Exotic Weapon Proficiency. They are better than the Rapier or Short Sword and Later I could get Improved Critical for a 15+ critical threat range.

Armor has options. Mithril Kikko medium Armor has a 5 ac and 7 max dex bonus with no penalties. It would costs 3000 more than a mithril chain short, but overall cheaper as it would basically be a +1 armor enhancement.

Mithril Buckler, I forgot something basic. I would just get it Masterwork for much cheaper.
---------------------
Ninja and Investigator are class alternatives. Ninja dosnt have some of the Unchained features, but wakizashi proficiency and Ki abilitites can become great after a while. It conflicts with the Charisma dumping I do. Wyroot weapons go great with the Ninja by allowing the class to regain Ki points by doing critical hits.

the Investigator is appealing as it is better at skills and much better in regular combat rather than duel-wielding sneak attacks. Alchemy, Mutagen, and STudied Combat help alot. Poor weapon proficiency, but not much worse than the Rogue.


So wakiizashis are not better enough to spend a feat for it in MANY people's opinion.

Your str doesn't need to be that high if you're going unchained rogue as you get dex to damage. And once you get that str is basically just for carry capacity.

Investigators are combat beasts. I just had two people say that mine seemed like a barbarian in combat. And barbs seem near the top of combat classes.


What about the Ninja? It looks like an upgraded core Rogue. Because of its ki abilities and Wakizashi proficiency its a better combat option.

Unchained Rogue confuses things as it starts out level 1 with Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat, and Finesse Training at level 3 makes one/dual one-handed weapons significantly more useful.

I think I read somewhere that Rogue/Ninja levels stack, though that may only be for Sneak Attack.

If They did I would put 3 levels into Unchained rogue and the rest into the Ninja.


You cannot take levels of both ninja and rogue, if you take one you can't take any in the other.

Many people feel ninja is better than core rogue.
Unchained makes a good competition.

Personally I feel go STR based ninja or DEX based Urogue.


Chess Pwn wrote:

You cannot take levels of both ninja and rogue, if you take one you can't take any in the other.

Many people feel ninja is better than core rogue.
Unchained makes a good competition.

Personally I feel go STR based ninja or DEX based Urogue.

Well that causes problems. Ninjas still need Dex, and have a greater need for Charisma due to the ki Pool being charisma based.

Unchained Rogue has better Hit chance at level 1 and Damage at level 3, but the Ninja has Mirror Image and Invisibility as soon as you gain Ki Points and eventually Greater invisibility, meaning constant Sneak attacks..


ninja and rogue's hit chance is the same between the two with same attack stat. until the ninja goes invisible, then it has bonuses to hit. Rogue don't get an attack boost till debilitating strike, and that's only if they get off two sneak attacks in a round.

ninja and rogue have same damage if equal attack stats.

rogue
10/16+2/14/10/14/10 or 13/16+2/14/10/12/10 if power attack
ninja
16+1/12/13/8/10/14 with or without power attack

these will have the same damage, rogue higher AC but ninja needs it less because he can be invisible on enemies turns.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Especially at higher levels, your weapon type doesn't really contribute much to damage, since most of your damage will be from Sneak Attack and it doesn't multiply on critical hits in PF.

However, if you're going crit-fishing and using the Butterfly Sting feat chain (basically you give your critical hit to an ally, who should be wielding a big two-handed weapon with a x3 or x4 critical hit multiplier), then kukris or wakazashi are your friends.


The U-Rogue starts off better because of free Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training early on.

After that however I dont know what. Most Rogue talents have little combat ability and dont give anything as useful as a magic or an ability pool.
--------------
Ninja is certainly harder to start because its missing those bonuses, but those Ki abilities end up giving massive potential. That is a very large gap of time to be worse.

Note: I found a Ninja Trick that is basically Finesse Training. Its 3rd party so cannot use.

Say I picked a Ninja, what do until level 10 when It can get Invisible Blade?
------------
Investigator has Studied Combat which takes a while to be useful, but eventually gives a huge boost in melee.

Alchemy allows alot of different buffs. Some of them are amazing combat boosts, such as turning yourself into a monster with 6 attacks per round.

Would be helpful to multiclass into tier 9 caster for wand usage with checks or a warrior for weapon proficiencies.
=============
Between the 3 classes it seems like different levels of Early, Mid, and Late Game potential. Early on the U-Rogue has the most damage and perks. Ninja is better later when Ki abiltities are unlocked and you have Ki pool and ways to regain those points. Investigator doesnt even have Sneak attack, but eventually all the stacking buffs make raw damage amazing and it has the most skill effectiveness out of any class.


If you're looking for a more 'combat focused' Rogue, multiclassing can do some very interesting things; Rogue is fairly multiclass friendly since it's more about gradually increasing abilities after the first few things are grabbed. There's absolutely no reason you can't create a strength-based Rogue in armor with Fighter or Barbarian contributing a ton more combat ability, but you can also use archetypes like Weapon Master (with some Gloves of Dueling) or Urban Barbarian (with Furious weapons and some Extra Rage) to make a dex-based character far meaner in combat.

Note you can make a (normal) Rogue that uses Ninja Tricks with a Rogue Talent Ki Pool that's fueled on wisdom. In theory it's far less efficient, but being able to drop CHA and stack WIS is a pretty major asset, and Extra Ki is always helpful.

Really, Rogue is so multiclass flexible that you could go Storm Druid 4/ Unchained Rogue X, take the Shaping Focus feat, and basically exist for 24hours/day as a dual-sword-wielding, medium-sized air elemental with bonus dexterity, bonus natural armor and perfect 60ft fly... and still be more or less a typical Unchained Rogue.


Im trying to not be too negative, but what are the real advantages of sticking to a Rogue or Ninja? Ninja can get greater Invisibility which makes it THE backstab class after a while, but then what?

While the Investigator's different abilities seem mostly weaker versions of other abiltities, the stacking quantity and some useful supporting makes it more appealing to me. Infusion talent allows you to give out your alchemy spells like potions. Studied Combat gives you a large bonus to hit and damage in melee. Inspiration(and some archetypes/talents) allow you free boosts to skill checks.

It just bothers me a bit how the Investigator doesnt have level 0 spells, lacks martial weapons, doesnt count as having spells for automatic wand usage, and studied combat doesnt workon ranged attacks. It makes me think of a Bard more than a Rogue. Still its probably what I would pick.


The only major combat things that jump out at me are gaining an edge in combat feats through talents (which can be a lot more important than general theory-craft suggests), getting Ki powers with regular Rogue or Ninja, or getting Finesse Training and Debilitating Strike with Unchained.

I would be much more likely to play a pure-class Investigator than Rogue, but a multiclass Rogue/X can do an awful lot of fun things. Invisible Blade is really great, but depending on it and then running into a situation or enemy where it doesn't function (which by that level isn't so unlikely) is then a mess.

Anyways, both approaches can make very effective characters. So you can decide based on the feel of your character concept, instead of trying to figure out what the most objectively powerful option is and then creating a character based on it. If you just want a Rogue-flavored TWF master, Unchained Rogue + Weapon Master is pretty potent and a great theme.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The slayer is another option.

Full BAB, Good Fort and Reflex, d10 HD, 6+Int skills, all martial and simple weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.

It gets Sneak Attack every 3 levels, a focused enemy feature, talents every even level (including ranger combat style feats), and some other stuff.


Ive tried the Slayer, and I just found it lacking in anything special beyond Study Target. Thats a nice versatile combat buff, but no magic.
The only things it gets from being part Ranger are the combat Style bonus feats and full BAB. No pet, no spells.

That is probably the keymost factor, spells. Those are vital after a while. The stygian Slayer Archetype feels necessary for spell-like abiltities. Too bad it doesnt upgrade to Greater Invisibility.


There are multiple ideas here that can be done in different ways. Just for sinplicity, what is one concept you want to make work? Is it TWF, or just straight damage?


Its over-achieving, but everything the class can do.

Combat ability is very necessary otherwise other classes might be replacements. Bard has alot of skills, versatile songs, and spells. A Wizard/Arcananist have powerful spells, skills and gain many more skill points later on.

What I really want to do Is NOT end up as a wimpy Fighter as soon as an enemy cant be backstabbed. Ive seen plenty of times where that is exactly what happens, and often times whatever warrior class character I have comes in to fight.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ChaosTicket wrote:
What I really want to do Is NOT end up as a wimpy Fighter as soon as an enemy cant be backstabbed. Ive seen plenty of times where that is exactly what happens, and often times whatever warrior class character I have comes in to fight.

The unchained rogue (via debilitating injury) has a number of different ways they can debuff an enemy. Use acrobatics to flank so you get your sneak attack. When you get your +2 weapon, make it a +1 Menacing Weapon instead so that flanking counts for more.

Another option is going for high non-lethal damage. Enforcer feat for an intimidate check as a free action, Thug archetype to make it more effective.

Mix it up with another class. Alchemist + Underground Chemist for lots of skills. There are too many options here to really list them all.

You can't just stand there and smash things like a fighter. If you try to, you will not be happy with the results. You need to work with the strengths of the class -- lots of skill ranks, lots of Dex, and a few special talents.


Very unconventional, but...

Windstalker Rogue

Unchained Scout Rogue 5(+), Blight Druid 4
Half-Elf: 10STR, 16/18DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 14WIS, 8CHA.
Trait: Magical Lineage: Frigid Touch
Elven Druid FCB x3 for +1AC while in Wild Shape

1R. Two-Weapon Fighting / (Half Elf Ancestral Arms: Wakizashi)
2R. *Talent: Combat Trick: Double Slice
3R. Accomplished Sneak Attacker
4D. *Domain: Destruction\Torture - Domain Power: Painful Smite
5D. Still Spell
6D.
7D. Shaping Focus
8R. *Talent: Weapon Training
9R. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

By level 8, you can spend 3x8 hours/day as a medium air elemental for +4 DEX, +3 Natural Armor and Fly60(perfect); you just avoid having your weapons merge when you Wild Shape. Otherwise, you can talk and function more or less as normal. With Pathfinder polymorph rules, you take the 'form' of a humanoid air elemental, but are otherwise still a normal corporeal being (you can still bleed, among other things).

You can use Still Frigid Touch as a Sneak Attack to stagger and deal 4d6+sneak cold damage with touch accuracy. You can use Painful Smite with a Sneak Attack for a huge intimidation roll. So you can make a Painful Smite Frigid Touch Sneak Attack.


This is probably a lost cause, but is there a way to make Unchained Rogue/Ninja better?

Thinking about it they would require magic to ensure they are relevant if/when in direct combat for offense and defense as well to ensure Sneak Attacks do not become useless.

I wonder if I would just have to become part magic user?

I remember their is a Rogue/Wizard Prestige class called the Arcane Trickster. Ill look into it.

I think I might be able to make a 3 Rogue/7 Sorcerer/10 Arcane Trickster and still get full spellcasting through Magical Knack.


Iideally a party would have a buffer to boost you, and i think there's an archetype that gives wand focus.


Some of the most useful abilities any physical class can have are magical ones.

Arcane Bloodrager can cast spells like Blur and Haste every time it uses Bloodrage. Ninja can use Mirror Image as well as Invisibility and/or Greater invisibility.


Trying to go TWF with an Arcane Trickster and their low BAB would likely be a mess.

The Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue Archetype gets 3/4 casting and Ninja Tricks.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If I may ask, what features of the rogue make you want to play the rogue?


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ChaosTicket wrote:

This is probably a lost cause, but is there a way to make Unchained Rogue/Ninja better?

Thinking about it they would require magic to ensure they are relevant if/when in direct combat for offense and defense as well to ensure Sneak Attacks do not become useless.

Why do you think a rogue and ninja become useless? Why do they need spells? They can just use appropriate magic items.

If you want magic you can now do the Arcane Trickster with only a single level of rogue -- there is a feat that allows you to get +1d6 sneak attack. The question really becomes what are you looking for from rogue at that point?

In addition there is the eldrich scoundrel mentioned above and an archetype of vigilante that would provide a magical rogue.


Situation combat abilities are just that, situational. Sneak Attack Damage can be great but if you cannot use it for one reason or another(oozes example) its useless. Eventually those wouldnt be options, but defining traits of a class. a rogue that cannot Sneak attack isnt much use in combat.

Some spells feel like they are must-have for classes after a while. Mirror Image is very powerful for defense. Greater invisibility is important for anyone trying to get sneak attacks after Combat reflexes and/or reach weapons appear as Acrobatics has limits and getting hit.

I heard that the Rogue is considered low tier as it lacks the spells or spell-like abiltities to keep its own class abilities useful high level. Examining it in this thread I can see those problems. You would basically need one spell to always get Sneak Attack damage and another just to keep you alive to do so.

Ill look into the Eldritch scoundrel. Does it work with the Unchained Rogue, or no?


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ChaosTicket wrote:


Ill look into the Eldritch scoundrel. Does it work with the Unchained Rogue, or no?

Yes, the normal Pathfinder rules allow you to combine it with Unchained Rogue.

PFS campaign has specifically forbidden that combination though. It is not legal in PFS.


You don't need to build a Rogue that's 'useless' without sneak attack, or that depends on flanking to do it. Just using the Scout Archetype with an Unchained Rogue that wields an elven curved blade with Power Attack and Furious Focus will grant solid non-sneak damage and at least some free sneak attacks.

There are a million options out there, like multiclassing with Monk to get a ki pool on Unchained Rogue, to using style feats like Outslug, to using Major Magic: Dazzling Blade with Improved Two-Weapon Feint... you just have to actually look for things to exploit, instead of going one pony trick.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If you want an "always on" combat ability, consider one of the Full BAB classes, like Barbarian, Bloodrager, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, UC Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Slayer, or Swashbuckler.


Err most of those characters have limited combat abilities. the Slayer is I think the only character which has an unlimited use ability. Its not strong, but it works on everything.

I want to optimize a Unchained Rogue-ish character, but there arent that many options within the class. Its basically just a choice of "strength vs skill" in starting stats. The rest is quite linear with using two-weapon fighting with light weapons and backstabbing while being a skillmonkey.

The rogue is not so much available to multiclass, but more that you have little reason to stick to it unlike caster classes. Take any class and dip one level into Rogue and you too can deal with magical traps, get backstab damage and of course a load of skill proficiencies. Two makes you tougher to AOE attacks and lets you pick a talent, like automatic trap searching. three make a two-weapon fighting style alot better.

Multiclassing into a Full BAB class like a Fighter, Barbarian, or especially Vigilante would work. Doing so with a Caster class would give huge advantages through the variety of spells. Depending on if the player wanted to make a Magical Assassin or a Backstabbing Mage you can customize.

This is I think the first time Ive thought a multiclass option is better than the original. Is the Rogue meant to be a secondary class?

It is interesting to think of the class combinations.


It's not so much that Rogue is a 'secondary' class, but that even a small dip can do so much for them.

At their core Rogues have a powerful bonus damage mechanic, and Unchained also brings in a second powerful DEX combat mechanic and Debilitating Injury, which is a major combat asset. Their biggest weakness is being a 3/4 BAB class with no straight bonus to hit, but that's not as bad as it sounds. A full BAB using Power Attack essentially has 3/4 BAB base accuracy anyhow.

So a small/medium dip that grabs some combat ability - Rage or Weapon Training or Divine Favor or whatever - is a huge boost without that much cost.

Rogue isn't the only class like this; many melee characters can benefit a lot from things like Rage or Flurry by dipping a little bit. One thing to note though with Rogue multiclassing - BAB is already a weakness, so dipping into low BAB can be pretty bad.

Edit: even with just Rogue there are more options than it seems - for example, Two-Weapon Feint, Shatter Defenses and Scout Archetype two-hand elven curved blade Felling Smash are all very different ways to approach it.


Things worried about casting often don't want to dip
Things worried about just getting sword into monster the hardest can dip a ton. Martial class features often don't scale all that well. Barb's rage, no improvement till lv11. Maybe a rage power that gives slight bump if you go multiple levels. Fighter goes 5 and gets weapon training. Going 4 more gets you another +1 to attack and damage. Take a level of urban barb and extra rage feat and you're at +2 attack and damage.

So something like barb 1 to start, then going into str rogue for 3-4, then into something else makes a fine combatant.

The only issue with multiclassing URogue is that they get dex to damage at lv3, so you probably want to reach that as soon as you can.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Admittedly, I'm out of practice with PF rules.

My group switched to 5th Edition, and the 5th Edition Rogue "plays like a rogue." They can only sneak attack once per round, but they pretty much sneak attack every round, especially after 2nd level when they get Cunning Action and can Hide or Disengage as a bonus action, so even ranged rogues can sneak attack practically every round.

I like the rogue, even in PF. The UC Rogue looks very fun. I like that it encourages tactical movement (which is why I LOVED the 3.5 Scout class.

I like that 3 or 4 levels of dipping into rogue add a lot to almost all combat characters: Sneak Attack, Skills, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and 2 rogue talents, which can be bonus combat feats or provide other fun options. All for a -1 to BAB and maybe -4 hit points.


Every post seems to be you explaining why you'd rather play a full BAB class or a spellcaster, so maybe you should just consider doing that.


Have you considered investigator? Always on combat abilities and spells, sounds like things you said you want.

Investigator can do damn near everything, actually.


swoosh wrote:
Every post seems to be you explaining why you'd rather play a full BAB class or a spellcaster, so maybe you should just consider doing that.

Right now Its like I am a computer trying to figure out the logic and repeating.

Its bothering me that I cannot figure out how to optimize a Rogue beyond just adding Archetypes(which may or may not be PFS compatible). Either A, I take an Unchained Rogue, B Multiclass to gain magic and/or class features, or C pick another trapfinder class like Investigator.

What I really want to see is someone with an awesome pure Rogue build to reassure me its possible to stick to the class and succeed.

Edit: i remember in Baldur's Gate throne of Rhaal where the Rogue(and bard i think) had a very powerful abiltity called "use any Item" which meant they could use anything regardless of class or alignment. Que seeing a Rogue backstab with a +5/6 Holy GreatSword

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If UC Rogue is an option, take it over the OG Rogue every time! Unless there is an incompatible archetype you want to use....

It's basically Rogue +, right?


ChaosTicket wrote:
Its bothering me that I cannot figure out how to optimize a Rogue beyond just adding Archetypes(which may or may not be PFS compatible). Either A, I take an Unchained Rogue, B Multiclass to gain magic and/or class features, or C pick another trapfinder class like Investigator.

Just to point out here, at level 9 a pretty basic UC Rogue using an elven curved blade in two hands with Power Attack will do something like (1d10+2) +10DEX +6PAk = ~23.5. Sneak Attack is 5x1d6, or ~17.5. So damage is very solid with a normal attack, and averages over 40 with a sneak attack. Accuracy is just fine with Furious Focus, or after using Debilitating Injury; otherwise it's doable but not great. So basically, this character is decent at combat when just hacking away, and really dangerous when using sneak attack; and there are other ways to build a Rogue like this.

If that's not good enough, why would you play a pure Rogue? It's a skill-money with dex-benefits that can set up devastating attacks through tactics and otherwise can fight OK if well-made. It's never going to be a Barbarian that gets even more dangerous with sneak attack.

Also, if multiclassing Rogue with a bit of something else will get you a roguish character that works more like what you want, why are you trying so hard to avoid it?


ChaosTicket wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Every post seems to be you explaining why you'd rather play a full BAB class or a spellcaster, so maybe you should just consider doing that.

Right now Its like I am a computer trying to figure out the logic and repeating.

Its bothering me that I cannot figure out how to optimize a Rogue beyond just adding Archetypes(which may or may not be PFS compatible). Either A, I take an Unchained Rogue, B Multiclass to gain magic and/or class features, or C pick another trapfinder class like Investigator.

What I really want to see is someone with an awesome pure Rogue build to reassure me its possible to stick to the class and succeed.

Edit: i remember in Baldur's Gate throne of Rhaal where the Rogue(and bard i think) had a very powerful abiltity called "use any Item" which meant they could use anything regardless of class or alignment. Que seeing a Rogue backstab with a +5/6 Holy GreatSword

In my opinion you cannot make a rogue that effectively balances offense and defense. If you want to go straight rogue, I strongly suggest making your ac, hp, and saves good before you worry too much about offense. Best way to balance is probably to lower str as much as you can and get pirahna strike. Iron will and cloak of resistance are must-haves as well.


Its not about balancing offense, but not being a "one-trick pony" that is easily blunted. There are quite a few ways to render Sneak Attack difficult or unavailable such as Uncanny Dodge.

As the class centers around that one ability in combat, it requires other abilities to revolve around it too. Use a two weapon style for double sneak attack damage as a start. Then have other feats to improve two weapon fighting and others to make situations where you can Sneak attack such as Bluff feats. This doesnt really fix the original problem or make Sneak Attack a "solve anything" ability.

So its not I can do much with a Pure rogue but play it by-the-book. The only other option presented is to be an Rogue using a Elven Curved Blade, or without the proficiency a Spiked Chain.

===============
I cant think a better Rogue build, so anything to make a an exceptional Rogue goes into my wishlist. Adding magical abilities like illusion spells and someway buff to Hit chance in particular.

Really hoping on an official Unchained Ninja from Paizo, as that would be much closer to what I want to see in a Rogue.


A Rogue isn't useless without Sneak Attack, he's just not really good. The curved blade Power Attack thing I mentioned gets two attacks at ~24 damage on a full attack at level 9; going with a TWF Unchained Rogue just swinging two short swords can do ~13 four times at 9. Either way, it's solid damage with a passable chance to hit.

Besides stealth/invisibility/flanking, there are options like specializing in Feint or Canny Tumble. They take some work, and they're not guaranteed to work every single time, but they're effective enough to get regular use out of. Things like Major Magic: Dazzling Blade and Boots of Elvenkind help crank up the skill numbers. If we're talking about PFS and not some kind of "Adventures in Munchkinland Death Challenge" situation, they'll get the job done.

Combat-wise, Sneak Attack adds a lot of damage. Going back to our level 9 examples, the elven curved blade Rogue can drop ~40 damage with one attack while positioning on a target by using Canny Tumble. If the TWF Rogue pulls a Two-Weapon Feint, their other 3 attacks go from ~13 damage to ~30 damage each. There's a reason you don't get to just stroll around throwing out easy Sneak Attack.


I dont think I need a build guide, but a strategy guide to ensure the Rogue succeeds at sneaking and sneak attacks.

question: How do you always stay unseen?
rogue answer:?
Other class Answer: the Invisibility spell

question: How do you always get Flank/Sneak Attacks?
Rogue answer:?
Other Class answer: Greater Invisibility allows you to fight and attack unseen in combat.

Question: How do you kill powerful enemies, for example Cthulu?
Rogue answer:???


I would invest in things like canny tumble, or two weapon feint and try to just use that. In case of enemies immune, you can try flanking or using swift aid feats. You can feel more useful by investing out of combat too. Those skill ranks aren't half bad..


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ChaosTicket wrote:

I dont think I need a build guide, but a strategy guide to ensure the Rogue succeeds at sneaking and sneak attacks.

question: How do you always stay unseen?
rogue answer:?
Other class Answer: the Invisibility spell

First of all, no one always stays unseen.

Invisibility potions can work, but things like smoke sticks or a wand of Obscuring Mist are cheaper.

Quote:

question: How do you always get Flank/Sneak Attacks?

Rogue answer:?
Other Class answer: Greater Invisibility allows you to fight and attack unseen in combat.

You shouldn't expect to always get sneak attacks any more than a Paladin should expect to be able to smite every opponent.

Canny Tumble, Scout Archetype plus a charge, there are a few others methods that will allow you to get sneak attacks.
Acrobatics tend to be a major portion of this, allowing you to get into flanking position.

Quote:

Question: How do you kill powerful enemies, for example Cthulu?

Rogue answer:???

That would fall under a totally unreasonable expectation.

If all that matters to you is how big a creature you can kill, you probably don't want to play a rogue.


Why does a Rogue need to always stay unseen? You can use stealth or a potion of invisibility most of the time, but being unseen isn't required for fighting things, disarming traps or generally being a skill monkey.

You can get sneak attacks from stealth, flanking, tumbling with Canny Tumble, feinting, or even Shatter Defenses. Sneak Attack is powerful enough that even if you give up some attacks for feinting or positioning, or only some of your attacks get the bonus, you're still going to get a lot out of it. A TWF Rogue could use Canny Tumble to get SA on a single attack as they move up, and then Two-Weapon Feint to get SA on TWF attacks. Slayer's Feint lets you use Acrobatics for both tumble and feint checks, so you can stack both with Acrobatic, Boots of Elvenkind and etc.

A Ninja relying purely on Greater Invisibility will get stopped cold by Improved Uncanny Dodge or special vision, which isn't uncommon by the time you're into those levels. They need a backup plan same as other Sneak Attack users.

Killing Cthulu? I thought we were talking about PFS. I'm not sure there are CR30 gods to worry about.


It's quite possible to get sneak attack on 90+% of enemies through either pack flanking or a rat folk with scurrying swarmer.

Vivisectionist alchemist is always going to be superior to rogue, but rogue can still do it:

Ratfolk
Familiar gained through Wasp familiar feat (Dirty tactics toolbox); mauler archtype to make it medium.
Scurrying swarmer feat allows you to sneak attack anything your familiar attacks.
This build works best with natural attacks. Sharp claws (feat gives 2 claw attacks) and tail blade gives 3 attacks. Another feat or trait or a ring gives a bite attack, and a helm gives a gore attack.

So by mid levels, you have a character with 5 attacks that auto flanks with his familiar.

A non-ratfolk option can accomplish this with animal soul, animal ally, boon companion, combat expertise and pack flanking (with a saddle that shares teamwork feats).


Im really not getting the class then.

Classes should either have several class features for various purposes, preferably that stack or have fewer abilities that are exceptional. So Either a Rogue would need alot of options(most likely a caster multiclass) or be able to sneak and backstab anything you come across if that is all you have.

As for enemies, while I make setups legal for PFS, I also plan them out beyond that, into the the level 8-20 range that PFS doesnt go.

So I am admitting I cant play a Rogue. I would have to use he Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype(not PFS apparently) a the minimum, but probably use the Arcane Trickster prestige class.


Guide to guides has some good arcane trickster stuff. Of course it's worth noting, most PrC's aren't really worthwhile PFS investments.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ChaosTicket wrote:

I dont think I need a build guide, but a strategy guide to ensure the Rogue succeeds at sneaking and sneak attacks.

question: How do you always stay unseen?
rogue answer:?
Other class Answer: the Invisibility spell

By maintaining a situational awareness of the field, I can usually find some cover which, combined with my teammates, will allow me to stealth long enough to get into a flank for more sneak attack.

ChaosTicket wrote:

question: How do you always get Flank/Sneak Attacks?

Rogue answer:?
Other Class answer: Greater Invisibility allows you to fight and attack unseen in combat.

I can maintain a flank by working with my teammates to utilize Acrobatics and 5' steps.

ChaosTicket wrote:

Question: How do you kill powerful enemies, for example Cthulu?

Rogue answer:???

The same way anyone else takes down Cthulu, or the Tarrasque, or Baba Yaga: By working as a team. The wizard pops an extended Greater Invisibility on me, I UMD a wand of Lead Blades, and do damage both on my turn (Probably around 6 attacks for 12d6+14 each) and on other people's turns (Opportunist, and maybe there's a maneuver Monk/Barbarian/Fighter which can force the critter to provoke which will take advantage of the 10+ AoOs I have.)

There are lots of ways to get sneak attack and flanks on just about anything. Almost all of my rogues can tumble at full speed through threatened squares with no penalty, move at full speed when stealthing with no penalty, and ignore almost all forms of difficult terrain.


You can play a rogue by doing combat and view sneak attack kinda like a ranger's favored enemy or paladin smite. Yeah it's really nice when it works. But if you fight different enemies or non-evil your "main ability" is turned off. So be the dex based combatant that just does his thing and gets lots of bonuses sometime if you pull off a flank against the right enemy.

1 to 50 of 73 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Unchained Rogue, Prototype Half-orc All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.