Failing to maintain a grapple with black tentacles


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?


I honestly don't know. It's not like the other person would then grapple it. The Spells pretty good already likely doesn't need the buff.


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Unless the spell states otherwise, it follows the normal rules for a grapple. Which is to say that a grappled creature escapes if the spell fails to maintain the grapple on them.

So in answer to your question: No, victims are not "only able to escape on their turn". They may also escape if the spell fails its check to maintain the grapple. However, the area of the spell is still considered difficult terrain, so they may not be able to escape the area before the spell has another chance to grapple them. The spell does make a check every round against every creature in the area after all.


failure to maintain the grapple pretty much tells you that the grapple isn't maintained.


Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

Uhhh, normally your questions are pretty good.

What happened today?

Also it seems obvious that the tentacles are using the grapple rules, and it doesnt need to be stated in the spell they are using the grapple rules


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CWheezy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

Uhhh, normally your questions are pretty good.

What happened today?

The word "maintain" doesn't even appear in the spell description. So it made me wonder if you even needed to make any such check.

It only talks about checks to deal damage, not to maintain. The spell also says creatures can't move until THEY can break the grapple. That implies that they can only break out on their turn, rather than the caster's turn.

I don't really see it as a poor question at all.

Liberty's Edge

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Ravingdork wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

Uhhh, normally your questions are pretty good.

What happened today?

The word "maintain" doesn't even appear in the spell description. So it made me wonder if you even needed to make any such check.

It only talks about checks to deal damage, not to maintain. The spell also says creatures can't move until THEY can break the grapple. That implies that they can only break out on their turn, rather than the caster's turn.

I don't really see it as a poor question at all.

PRD wrote:

Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast.

...
The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling ...
PRD wrote:


Grapple

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.
...
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
...
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
...
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
...

You re grappling at straws, Rav.


Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Damage

You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

The only way the tentacle can damage with a grapple is that option. The grapple rules it works under say that if you don't maintain the grapple ends.

The Concordance

Black Tentacles isn't a creature with actions. I can reasonably see it as a spell effect that causes the grappled condition, like Web, but additional rounds may cause damage. I don't think Black Tentacles needs to maintain.


Not needing to roll to maintain would make an already overpowered spell utterly ridiculous.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Not needing to roll to maintain would make an already overpowered spell utterly ridiculous.

That's an argument against balance, not against the spell's text. We're discussing rules, not balance here.


why does everyone think this spell is so powerful, I have never seen it work on more then 1 person at a time. CMD of targets are just way to high for this to be effective. caster level +5 is not enough by the time you get the spell to beat most cmd. when you need rolls of 13 to beat cmd you better off casting something else. It is even worse are you get higher level. The only creature I have ever seen it work on is arcane casters. because their CMD tend to be little lower, then everyone else.

Liberty's Edge

KainPen wrote:
why does everyone think this spell is so powerful, I have never seen it work on more then 1 person at a time. CMD of targets are just way to high for this to be effective. caster level +5 is not enough by the time you get the spell to beat most cmd. when you need rolls of 13 to beat cmd you better off casting something else. It is even worse are you get higher level. The only creature I have ever seen it work on is arcane casters. because their CMD tend to be little lower, then everyone else.

3d difficult terrain isn't something you scoff even if the CL check is too low to affect the people in the area.

Not all monster have high CMD, non full BAB character probably have a relatively low CMB.
It attack every round by itself, fo it is Fire and Forget.
It attack creatures entering the area, so most people will avoid it.

As all area control spell it is not a guaranteed success, but it do its work, limiting the enemies options (or your friends options if placed badly).

Usefulness can depend on the number and kind of enemies and how long are your battles.
If you play rocket tag Pathfinder it isn't worth much, if your battle last some time it is very useful.

BTW: it is a single roll against all targets in the area of effect, so generally it is either "caught several targets" or "missed all".


yeah it is mostly miss all every time I try to use it when DM, it is just so easy to raise PC CMD. When player I see players use it, they always us it as difficult terrain use. it eat up about 1 round actions. as they have to double move and go through it, or around it. It just seem better option to just take out the target completely.

I rather use create pit has the same effect of terrain controlling type of spell, the distance is only 5ft less. On failed save usual end up taking non flying creature for the entire battle. I don't see the 3d effect of tentacle being that big of a bonus, most creatures fly at rates of 60 or higher so going around or over them is often not even inconvenience, I guess for the slower ones and enclosed area it could be semi useful.

I guess I just feel there are better option at 4th level spell range.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have seen it used to devastating effect against humanoid PCs and NPCs several times. It rarely ever works well on big monsters though.

Liberty's Edge

KainPen wrote:

yeah it is mostly miss all every time I try to use it when DM, it is just so easy to raise PC CMD. When player I see players use it, they always us it as difficult terrain use. it eat up about 1 round actions. as they have to double move and go through it, or around it. It just seem better option to just take out the target completely.

I rather use create pit has the same effect of terrain controlling type of spell, the distance is only 5ft less. On failed save usual end up taking non flying creature for the entire battle. I don't see the 3d effect of tentacle being that big of a bonus, most creatures fly at rates of 60 or higher so going around or over them is often not even inconvenience, I guess for the slower ones and enclosed area it could be semi useful.

I guess I just feel there are better option at 4th level spell range.

It all depend on the fly skill of the guys flying. And by their armor.

My magus or my druid, with maximized fly skill, will consume very little movement turning around or over the obstacle, a fighter in heavy armor quaffing a fly potion would have a some serious problem turning, so he would be forced to use all of his movement to go sideway and then turn at the start of his next move action.


I think it is fairly obvious that when the spell says that it makes the grapple check each round, and the result of a successful check is gaining the grappled condition and taking damage, then the result of a failed check is that the target doesn't have the grappled condition and doesn't take damage.

Granted it doesn't specifically say that a failed check means the target in no longer grappled, but I don't think it takes rocket science to figure it out, especially when the spell is clearly using the grapple rules which that a grapple be maintained with a check every round, and failing to succeed on that check means, the target is no longer grappled.


Ravingdork wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Not needing to roll to maintain would make an already overpowered spell utterly ridiculous.
That's an argument against balance, not against the spell's text. We're discussing rules, not balance here.

One is often a clue to the other.

If you can read a text so that it provides a reasonable benefit that is probably the right reading. If (as you've done in this case) somehow managed to read it to have an absurd power level, that's probably the wrong one.


Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

If the tentacles fail to maintain a grapple on a creature during a round they do no damage to that creature and the creature in question is able to act normally on his turn, though still considered in difficult terrain.

I have seen this spell turn a potentially troublesome and deadly encounter into a trivial one.... but not very often.

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