Unchained.... Part 3) The Ninja...


Homebrew and House Rules

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My favourite class.... quite frankly who doesn't love ninjas?!?! IMO there are very few classes that conjure up the kind of image and personna that the ninja has.

Sadly... it has been long ignored and with Unchained rogue appearing, the waters have been muddied further.

Although obviously there is common ground between the 2....I've always viewed the ninja as being the ancient equivalent of modern special forces (and in fact that was in many ways what they were) and should be treated as such in terms of design.

Got a few ideas as to how the class could be given an Unchaining....


Well, the easiest approach would be to just port over all the new goodies the Rogue Unchained got: Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at level 1, Finesse Training at level 3 and every 8 levels thereafter, Debilitating Injury at level 4, and Rogue's Ninja's Edge at level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter. Sometimes simple and straightforward is the best solution.


Yes you could take the easy path... but then if youre going to 'Unchain' it then lets do it right!

For me the ninja should really be quite distinct from the rogue wherever possible, yes there is crossover but for me the ninja should be more attack based and less skill monkey.

Assassination, stealth, sabotage, martial arts rather than performing, bluffing, knowledge, linguistics, UMD


Rechain the rogue and make him pointless again by gving all of his new stuff to another class?


RDM42 wrote:
Rechain the rogue and make him pointless again by gving all of his new stuff to another class?

It's not another class. Alternate classes are archetypes written in class formate. The Urogue can still take Crogue archetypes. I'm not seeing a problem other than that ninja tricks are balanced as Crogue talents not Urogue talents.


I actually think that the Ninja should be a D6 class who gets 6+ skill points per level (as opposed to 8) but who gets 2 good saves (Reflex and Will). The ninja always strikes me as physically less resilient than the rogue but mentally more resilient...


Harleequin wrote:
I actually think that the Ninja should be a D6 class who gets 6+ skill points per level (as opposed to 8) but who gets 2 good saves (Reflex and Will). The ninja always strikes me as physically less resilient than the rogue but mentally more resilient...

d6 is for noncombatant casters and commoners. Ninja don't fit either category.


With the exception of a handful of d12 races, Paizo has set the standard that hit dice and attack bonus are tied. High attack bonus classes get d10, medium attack bonus classes get d8, and slow attack bonus classes get d6. I don't think it's appropriate to deviate from that without very good reason.


Dasrak wrote:
With the exception of a handful of d12 races, Paizo has set the standard that hit dice and attack bonus are tied. High attack bonus classes get d10, medium attack bonus classes get d8, and slow attack bonus classes get d6. I don't think it's appropriate to deviate from that without very good reason.

Precedents have been officially set with the Feyspeaker and Cardinal archetypes both D8 classes but with 1/2 BAB....

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For an unchained ninja, I recommend either using this from a discussion about this topic a year ago. Alternatively, go with Everyman Gaming's unchained ninja, which is actually pretty well done and does a good job keeping an unchained ninja from stealing too many goodies from the unchained rogue.

Also, making the ninja have a D6 Hit Die is a really bad idea for many complicated game design reasons. It's a common fallacy I see in amateur designers thinking that lowering a combat-oriented class's Hit Die is a good approach to making them less defense-focused when that's actually not the case. I long suspected that Paizo tied HD to BAB as a way to help prevent terrible design decisions like giving the bard a d6 HD.


Cyrad wrote:
keeping an unchained ninja from stealing too many goodies from the unchained rogue.

It's not stealing. The ninja literally is a rogue archetype printed in a more verbose format. This is why alternate classes can take base class archetypes that they have the trade out abilities for. The unchained rogue is allowed to take rogue archetypes, therefore ninja in groups using unchained rogues get any unchained rogue addons that aren't on abilities they trade out.

They just need their ninja talents brought up to the quality level of unchained rogue talents.


Cyrad wrote:
I long suspected that Paizo tied HD to BAB as a way to help prevent terrible design decisions like giving the bard a d6 HD.

And yet the Cardinal and Feyspeaker have shown us that Paizo WILL mix n match...

I dont see a fundamental problem with a D6 Ninja as long as other aspects were suitably compensated... something like 'Supernatural reflexes' or improved ability to hide in plain sight....

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Atarlost wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
keeping an unchained ninja from stealing too many goodies from the unchained rogue.

It's not stealing. The ninja literally is a rogue archetype printed in a more verbose format. This is why alternate classes can take base class archetypes that they have the trade out abilities for. The unchained rogue is allowed to take rogue archetypes, therefore ninja in groups using unchained rogues get any unchained rogue addons that aren't on abilities they trade out.

They just need their ninja talents brought up to the quality level of unchained rogue talents.

Regardless the fact that the ninja is a rogue alternate class, it's best for both classes that they each possess unique abilities to set them apart.

Also, nearly all of the ninja tricks are better than the unchained rogue's talents. Yet, the rogue has limited capability to take ninja tricks while the ninja can select any rogue talent they want. This is one of the reasons it's a bad idea to just give all of the rogue's new class features to the ninja and call it a day.


Harleequin wrote:


And yet the Cardinal and Feyspeaker have shown us that Paizo WILL mix n match...

I dont see a fundamental problem with a D6 Ninja as long as other aspects were suitably compensated... something like 'Supernatural reflexes' or improved ability to hide in plain sight....

I think that it would be very hard to balance for lower health and BAB for a base class that is mostly based on close combat. Supernatural reflexes doesn't really matter when you get hit by a crit which will probably kill you instantly at early levels with a 6hd and how can you improve stealth more than giving them invisibility which they already have. If anything I think of the ninja as more combat oriented than the rogue since rogues have many more abilities based on non combat like rumormonger or skill bonuses.

edit for you newer post:

Harleequin wrote:


b) I wouldn't say a ninja is a front line combatant in the regular understanding at all, and all things are possible with feature balancing. Also, the fact that Paizo have mix'd n match BAB and HD IS proof that it can be done, regardless of any bizarre chat about 'not applying because they're specialised archetypes'.....

I think that the fact that they did it so few times means that its really something to be careful with. A lot of classes in 3.5 had awkward HD BAB because they combined higher BAB with lower HD or the reverse (since most of the time high BAB is wasted when you're squishy)


Dont get me wrong I'm not remotely saying that changing to a D6 HD is the only way to Unchain the ninja... far from it.

Merely that with correct design it could be done with relatively little fuss.

In essence I think the reason why ninja has been left behind is because people view it as being 'a bit like the rogue' whereas I think it really needs to be distanced from the rogue and given its own identity, rather than just a kinda sorta dressed in black rogue-type thing....


vorArchivist wrote:


I think that it would be very hard to balance for lower health and BAB for a base class that is mostly based on close combat.

I'm not suggesting lowering BAB... hence the mix'n'match comment


Harleequin wrote:
In essence I think the reason why ninja has been left behind is because people view it as being 'a bit like the rogue' whereas I think it really needs to be distanced from the rogue and given its own identity, rather than just a kinda sorta dressed in black rogue-type thing....

Well, in honesty, how is it different than the rogue (character wise)? If I took the rogue, added a few more sneak attack / assassination focused rogue talents to its list, and built a character as such, taking combat / stealth feats and talents, putting all attributes into str, dex, and a bit of wisdom, dumping the other 3 by comparison, I end up with an assassin exactly as you described towards the start of the thread. A front line combatant with features focused on stealth / assassination with strong mental fortitude but weak physical resistance, and with lower than average rogue skill points. How does the ninja differ from this rogue build? What makes the ninja unique? What justifies its existence?


I wouldn't have thought of Ninjas as physically weaker than Rogues, particularly now that Rogues are the other Finesse class from Swashbucklers.

I am thinking about going the OTHER WAY, and completely redoing Ninja as a d10, full BAB hybrid of Slayer and Unchained Monk, keeping Ninja Tricks mostly as they are, but also opening up Qinggong Powers. And while we're at it, introduce Unchained Ninja with some archetypes, including a Shadowdancer archetype and an archetype based upon the historical Ninjas, which are poorly documented but were apparently often recruited from the lower classes (not the elites) and served as spies, mercenaries, and saboteurs as well as assassins (the latter archetype trades out Ki and the mystical Ninja Tricks and Qinggong Powers in favor of Slayer and Rogue Talents and some Brawler features, but keeps Eastern martial arts and weapons alongside Sneak Attack).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A d10 Ninja makes much more sense than a d6 Ninja. After all, the Rogue class is supposed to cover an extremely wide range of concepts, from burglars through spies to con men/women, while Ninja is pretty much a straight up sneaky assassin.


Harleequin wrote:

For me the ninja should really be quite distinct from the rogue wherever possible, yes there is crossover but for me the ninja should be more attack based and less skill monkey.

Assassination, stealth, sabotage, martial arts rather than performing, bluffing, knowledge, linguistics, UMD

Gorbacz wrote:
A d10 Ninja makes much more sense than a d6 Ninja. After all, the Rogue class is supposed to cover an extremely wide range of concepts, from burglars through spies to con men/women, while Ninja is pretty much a straight up sneaky assassin.

I'd like to remind people that the Ninja's skills weren't limited to stealth and assassination, but also to skills as varied as espionage, disguise, impersonation, medecine, pyrotechnics, or tactics. This makes the ninja the very definition of skill monkeys.

Historicaly, the ninja were primarily used as spies, not assassins. In fact, most the best known assassination attempts by ninja were failed attempts. Ninja were more useful to their patron as spy, scout or saboteur than as assassin.

That said, a skill-monkey only class is usually not that fun to play in the usually combat-focused PF game. Thus, we need to have ninja that are more battle-ready than the historical ninja, and try to follow the folkoric vision of the ninja, capable of becoming invisible, walk on every surface, and sometimes teleport or control elements.

For this reason, I'd probably encourage a Rogue-Monk hybrid, but without a sneak attack. Instead, the ninja could specialize in combat maneuvers (including bonuses of some kind to maneuvers against a flat-footed target ?), representing their preference for unconventionnal warfare and tactical tricks. This would also explain why they would prefers weapons like the Kusarigama and other weapon particularly adapted to combat maneuvers.
Include a Ki pool to add some supernatural powers (invisibility, underwater abilities, a bit of elemental effects) to account for their legendary feats, and I think we would be pretty good.

With a class like this, the primary in-combat role of the ninja would not be to dish high damage from behind, but to setup situations so that his allies would be at an advantages : separating enemy troops through the use of pyrotechnics, using maneuvers to handicap the opponents, etc.

Silver Crusade

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Aralicia wrote:
Harleequin wrote:

For me the ninja should really be quite distinct from the rogue wherever possible, yes there is crossover but for me the ninja should be more attack based and less skill monkey.

Assassination, stealth, sabotage, martial arts rather than performing, bluffing, knowledge, linguistics, UMD

Gorbacz wrote:
A d10 Ninja makes much more sense than a d6 Ninja. After all, the Rogue class is supposed to cover an extremely wide range of concepts, from burglars through spies to con men/women, while Ninja is pretty much a straight up sneaky assassin.

I'd like to remind people that the Ninja's skills weren't limited to stealth and assassination, but also to skills as varied as espionage, disguise, impersonation, medecine, pyrotechnics, or tactics. This makes the ninja the very definition of skill monkeys.

Historicaly, the ninja were primarily used as spies, not assassins. In fact, most the best known assassination attempts by ninja were failed attempts. Ninja were more useful to their patron as spy, scout or saboteur than as assassin.

That said, a skill-monkey only class is usually not that fun to play in the usually combat-focused PF game. Thus, we need to have ninja that are more battle-ready than the historical ninja, and try to follow the folkoric vision of the ninja, capable of becoming invisible, walk on every surface, and sometimes teleport or control elements.

For this reason, I'd probably encourage a Rogue-Monk hybrid, but without a sneak attack. Instead, the ninja could specialize in combat maneuvers (including bonuses of some kind to maneuvers against a flat-footed target ?), representing their preference for unconventionnal warfare and tactical tricks. This would also explain why they would prefers weapons like the Kusarigama and other weapon particularly adapted to combat maneuvers.
Include a Ki pool to add some supernatural powers (invisibility, underwater abilities, a bit of elemental effects) to account for their legendary feats, and I think we would be...

Design by realism is frequently a horrible decision in a game about teleporting dragons across planes of reality.

Look, if you are not at least a 6/9 caster or a full BAB class, you need some REALLY good chops to stand next to them. The problem with core Rogue and core Monk was that they did not fill this criteria. I doubt that being able to prance around the battlefield while handing out situation bonuses basing on CMB is such chops.


Part of my reasoning for wanting to do a D6 (but 3/4 BAB) ninja was so as to quite heavily incorporate Kuji-in - the fabled 'ninja magic', into the design. This could be used to mitigate the loss of HP but also to provide an excellent template for archetype design, something that the current ninja sorely lacks. The combination of sources of power and mystic hand signs could be great.

It could still be done with a D8 HD but you wouldnt be able to get as much mileage out of it.

It would be flavourtastic!


Gorbacz wrote:

Design by realism is frequently a horrible decision in a game about teleporting dragons across planes of reality.

Look, if you are not at least a 6/9 caster or a full BAB class, you need some REALLY good chops to stand next to them. The problem with core Rogue and core Monk was that they did not fill this criteria. I doubt that being able to prance around the battlefield while handing out situation bonuses basing on CMB is such chops.

I am not talking about design by realism, I am talking about design by theme. The theme of the ninja is originated from the real life ninja, which is not a super-assassin. Even the more mythical version vehiculed by folklore doesn't make him so.

If your "ninja" is only a super-killer with a ninja-like disguise, does it really deserve the name of ninja ?

While we should not strive to replicate the real world, spiting on a theme that originated from it because of lack of care or research for it is insulting. You also seem to have kindly ignored the fact that I actually proposed the use of invisibility, teleportation, and elemental control, all of which are part of the ninja theme, while not being realistic.

On the core rogue/monk part, I obviously meant a Unchained Rogue/Unchained Monk mix (After all, we are in an Unchained thread). Using two suboptimal classes to try to create a viable one is a bad idea.

I truly believe that we don't need yet again a high-dps martial class. The ninja is possibly one of the theme (along with the tactician/general) that is the closest to the concept of a non-spellcaster controller. If maneuvers as-is aren't enough, then we either can up the effects of maneuvers in class, or use abilities that are similar to maneuvers but are more effective (similar, for example, to the additionnal effects the monk add to his stunning fist).

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Harleequin wrote:

Part of my reasoning for wanting to do a D6 (but 3/4 BAB) ninja was so as to quite heavily incorporate Kuji-in - the fabled 'ninja magic', into the design. This could be used to mitigate the loss of HP but also to provide an excellent template for archetype design, something that the current ninja sorely lacks. The combination of sources of power and mystic hand signs could be great.

It could still be done with a D8 HD but you wouldnt be able to get as much mileage out of it.

It would be flavourtastic!

Crippling a class for flavor is almost always a bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised that was a reason why the core rogue ended up so broken. "They shouldn't be as good fighters as the fighter, so let's give them a 3/4 BAB! But making them a spellcaster doesn't fit the class's flavor, so let's give them crappy talents instead. Oh, other 3/4 BAB classes have 9-level spellcasting and better proficiencies? Oops."

That being said, I think the ki idea is pretty cool, but that sounds like it should be a ninja trick.


If you really don't like the obvious ninja as rogue archetype solution the thing to do is probably to completely de-rogue it. Make it a monk archetype. From the core monk I'd trade out flurry for sneak attack, unarmed strike scaling for a properly scaling accuracy boost of some sort, and all the quigong tradeable stuff for an every even level ninja trick progression. Also the ki pool needs to be 2/level+stat+2 like barbarian rage rounds and bardic performance rounds if ki effects are going to be mostly single round.

I'm not sure exactly where I'd go from the unmonk as a base, but something similar can be achieved.


Atarlost wrote:
If you really don't like the obvious ninja as rogue archetype solution the thing to do is probably to completely de-rogue it.

This is what I was thinking.

But I wanted to really focus on the Kuji-in

So you would start by choosing your 'Source of Power' - earth, water, fire, wind or void. This would then grant you certain level based abilities and 'spells'.... although these would function as either SLA or SU, and be purely somatic in nature (in keeping with the idea thematically).


Harleequin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
If you really don't like the obvious ninja as rogue archetype solution the thing to do is probably to completely de-rogue it.

This is what I was thinking.

But I wanted to really focus on the Kuji-in

So you would start by choosing your 'Source of Power' - earth, water, fire, wind or void. This would then grant you certain level based abilities and 'spells'.... although these would function as either SLA or SU, and be purely somatic in nature (in keeping with the idea thematically).

From this description, taking some inspiration from the Kineticist may be a good idea.


Aralicia wrote:
Harleequin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
If you really don't like the obvious ninja as rogue archetype solution the thing to do is probably to completely de-rogue it.

This is what I was thinking.

But I wanted to really focus on the Kuji-in

So you would start by choosing your 'Source of Power' - earth, water, fire, wind or void. This would then grant you certain level based abilities and 'spells'.... although these would function as either SLA or SU, and be purely somatic in nature (in keeping with the idea thematically).

From this description, taking some inspiration from the Kineticist may be a good idea.

Inspiration isn't the right word. He's literally describing the kineticist with some new options for utility talents and proficiency in common eastern weapons instead of common western weapons. That's not really a theme in need of a class.

Unless he just means he hates the kineticist's mechanics and wants another with this as an excuse.

Something quasi-historical rather than purely mythical is more useful, though. There are already a glut of heavy casters.

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Removed some posts and their responses. A lot of elitism and assumptions are being tossed back and forth here—please be civil to each other. Assuming that the other person you're talking with isn't capable of understanding you is not an appropriate means of discussion on our forums.

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A ninja-themed kineticist archetype would be kind of cool. But I'd envision a ninja class follow more closely to the classic or historic ninja tropes than ones from anime.


Haha! I knew I saw that somewhere. Here's the Kinetic Shinobi by Legendary Games.

It's (in theory) a Kineticist/Ninja hybrid, though in combat it usually feel closer to a melee Kineticist than a ninja.
She gets a Kinetic blast like the Kineticist, but is forced to apply a "Physical/Elemental jutsu form infusion" that transform the blast in a melee weapon.
She gets a Ki pool she can use to enhance her blast (including dual wielding or throwing her "Kinetic blast weapons", empowering it, or ignoring part of DR/ER).
She also gets a bit of sneak attack (+6d6), as well as abilities that enhance stealth & evasion.

Even if your version of the ninja ends up differently, this class and the dozen archetype that goes with it are a good read, and may be a good inspiration.


My idea for using Kuju-in was three-fold and most definitely distinct from a kineticist - my idea really wasnt for a hybrid type class:

1) In Kuji-in the thumb represents the source of power Ku (void), and the fingers represent the four elemental manifestations. They are Chi (earth – solids), Sui (water – liquids), Ka (fire – combustion) and Fu (wind – gases).

Each of these would have a pool of abilities that could be taken at either any level or at specific levels, for some of the more powerful abilities. However, none of these abilities would be directly offensive in nature and would be more to do with assisting the ninja in their primary roles of assassination, sabotage, reconnaissance... etc. There would be no kinetic 'blasts'.

Eg) For a ninja with fire as their source of power, they could create a Wall of Ash (similar to cleric domain) and explosive devices rather than lob out Fireballs or Walls of Fire

2) The use of ninja hand signs. The base ninja would get fixed access to specific hand sign abilities at certain levels.

The 9 primary hand signs are Rin, Hei, Toh, Sha, Kai, Jin, Retsu, Zai, and Zen. Each symbol invokes different strengths and abilities in a trained ninja.

So a base ninja might get 1 minor power from each of these between Lv 1-20.

3)Ninja archetypes could then represent specialists in specific hand signs. This combined with the original choice of one of the 5 sources of power gives 45 possible combinations!

Eg) A 'Sha' (or suitable name) ninja with void as their source of power would be an archteype focussed on healing and condition removal/prevention of itself (scaling in power from 1-20) whilst at the same time gaining abilities from its void source.

This was a big reason for wanting to make Unchained ninja a D6 (but possibly still 3/4 BAB)class. I really wanted to incorporate Kuji-in heavily..... and so needed to make some trades! The class could still get its rogue style sneak attack bonuses but I wanted it to be clearly distinct and much more funky!! :)))


Harleequin wrote:
I really wanted to incorporate Kuji-in heavily.

The precedent has been set. That's represented by elementalist wizards. The last thing the game needs is yet another set of completely different mechanics for magic.


It also sounds like an incredibly complex and specific system where something abstract & generic would be just as good. Think monk ki powers. They could be gathered into trees / groups but doing so just adds complexity for no real gain. Better to facilitate customization & flavoring by providing more open ended and generic options.

Based on the description, you could probably create a ttrpg with as much variety as all the core Pathfinder classes just by using the above ninjas as the only playable class.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

I wouldn't have thought of Ninjas as physically weaker than Rogues, particularly now that Rogues are the other Finesse class from Swashbucklers.

I am thinking about going the OTHER WAY, and completely redoing Ninja as a d10, full BAB hybrid of Slayer and Unchained Monk, keeping Ninja Tricks mostly as they are, but also opening up Qinggong Powers. And while we're at it, introduce Unchained Ninja with some archetypes, including a Shadowdancer archetype and an archetype based upon the historical Ninjas, which are poorly documented but were apparently often recruited from the lower classes (not the elites) and served as spies, mercenaries, and saboteurs as well as assassins (the latter archetype trades out Ki and the mystical Ninja Tricks and Qinggong Powers in favor of Slayer and Rogue Talents and some Brawler features, but keeps Eastern martial arts and weapons alongside Sneak Attack).

+1

but i hope you mean the unrogue's (more bettery) sneak attack.

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