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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If a symbol spell, such as symbol of death, is placed on one side of an archway (set to trigger when someone observes, studies, or passes beneath it), and the PCs come through from the OTHER SIDE of the archway, do they ever get a Perception check to become aware of the trap before setting it off?
Symbol of Death wrote: This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of death kills one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed 150. The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected 150 hit points' worth of creatures, whichever comes first. A creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally....
Magic, Aiming a Spell, Burst wrote: A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends. If the Symbol is placed on a side of the archway without line of effect to the creatures who are passing underneath it, then I think that:
1) As per the symbol not being placed in plain sight, it would not trigger, and
2) Even if it did trigger, since it's on one 'side' of an archway, it's effects would not affect the creatures that are currently passing underneath the archway as there is no line of effect (the archway itself blocks the effect).
Symbol of Death, Trigger Conditions wrote: As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death's triggering conditions cannot be changed. By your description of the Rune, since the trigger condition includes passing through a portal, it seems like 2) would happen.
If the trigger condition did not include passing through a portal, then as soon as the PCs pass through the archway and look backwards (if still within 60ft), it would trigger. The PCs would get a Perception check to see the Rune, but since it's set to trigger on sight, the Rune would trigger immediately regardless of the result...
Well, unless the perception check result is so abysmally low that they don't even consider looking backwards at the Rune.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Putting it front and center at the top of an archway isn't in plain sight and in a prominent location?
It doesn't get much more prominent than that!
Also, my question had a lot less to do with whether the symbol would effect the PCs, but rather about whether or not they would have any chance at all of spotting it before they risked triggering it. To put it another way...
Does not help with your Q but:
In the old days in our D&D 1 game it was ruled, you needed to see the symbol to trigger it and if you did not have the ability to see then you were not affected. I do not remember if this was a house rule or a an official ruling from some where like the Dragon Mag or from an official at a Con.
In my few years of gaming experience I have seen your question asked in quite a few different ways, as you posted, the symbols on the faces of stairs, re-wording the spell that symbols create a magic effect that even those with no sight can see and what if the person/creature does not recognize the symbol as being a symbol.
In almost all of the rulings from many game systems the rules state it has to be in the open and easily seen and is not a radar like triggered effect but it is a seeing triggered effect.
But I do not know the official pathfinder ruling.
It's a fair question. It's like a bell on the inside of a locked shop door. When the door opens, it brushes the bell which rings. If the rogue doesn't have any way to see the bell, how can he detect it?
Technically (and not referring to special talents that alert you to traps, like Trap Spotter) he can't. If he checks the door, he shouldn't see 'bell residue' and it's not logical to see any scraping on the top of the door since that's probably not visible either because of the doorframe.
So he should find no traps. Then if he unlocks the door, he could say he's opening it carefully while checking for traps, then he might have a chance to spot the bell before it 'triggers'. That will stop him from opening the door until he figures a way to disable it.
For a symbol on an archway, but placed on the other side where someone couldn't see it. If they are checking for traps as they pass through the archway, and the rogue is the first one to do so, then I would allow the check and stop him. If they stop and just look at the archway, even checking it for traps, then there's is no way for him to detect it.
Some people might think that sounds dirty, but it isn't. Checking for traps while moving is, and always has been, distinctly different from checking specific objects, like doors or chests, for traps.
So to be clear, if the rogue is checking for traps as he moves, then he can detect it. "As you start to pass through the archway, your training tells you something might wrong. You stop."
If he can't see the symbol then he probably has no chance to identify it, but there are fair ways to allow that, a simple mirror on a stick he can extend through the archway to study the symbol, for instance. That might also be used if the rogue had paused and said he was checking the archway if he was using that tool.
That is just a fair way I would run it.
I remember an old adventure that had a symbol on the wall the door was on with a mirror opposite it. So when the group opened the door they looked into the mirror and saw the symbol and were affected accordingly.
Another good symbol trick is arch ways covered by drapes that you move aside to go through them. So you cannot see the symbol unless you move the drape and once you do bam.
MDC
Quote: I remember an old adventure that had a symbol on the wall the door was on with a mirror opposite it. That's a pretty clever one. Not sure how well it would work in this current edition of the game, however. Not sure most people would consider looking at a reflection of the symbol the same as looking at the symbol. If they 'read' the symbol (being a reversed, mirror-image notwithstanding, maybe it's symmetrical and doesn't matter) then that might trigger a symbol with that condition.
Still, in Pathfinder it's a burst effect. So even if looking at the reflection or reading it triggered the symbol, it probably wouldn't effect anyone who just opened the door, since a burst won't go around corners. Unless they had stated they were rushing through the door as they opened it and actually stepped into the area of effect as they triggered the symbol.
So to tie this in with the post. Putting a symbol on the opposite side of an archway is good for making it harder to see and detect, but it will probably only catch the first person going through the archway. If it stays active, then anyone making the choice to go through after it triggered (or maybe had no visible effects) is fair game. Placing it where it can be seen as a ward and warning against passing through an archway makes it way easier to disable, but will catch anyone passing under it and in the area as well. (This case is obviously for a symbol set to only trigger on people passing beneath it.)
Ravingdork wrote: Putting it front and center at the top of an archway isn't in plain sight and in a prominent location?
It doesn't get much more prominent than that!
Also, my question had a lot less to do with whether the symbol would effect the PCs, but rather about whether or not they would have any chance at all of spotting it before they risked triggering it. To put it another way...
It's not in plain sight from at least one side of the enterance. In this case, I think it is fair to rule that this equates to no LOS, no LOE.
As a sense of fairness, you should always give the characters a chance at detecting a trap provided they have the requisite ability to do so.
If you are going to rule that they are indeed affected prior to a mundane perception check, then I would suggest that the trap spotter talent would be a suitable counter.
Yes.
Mummy's Mask AP has this exact scenario:
Note that when used this way a symbol spell becomes a trap and it still has perception and disable dc's. Considering the players are expected to be at least level 16 at this point the given DC's are trivial. A better use of a symbol is on a shield of a servant that has a cloth cover, or some other way to use it actively.
Pizza Lord wrote:
It's like a bell on the inside of a locked shop door. When the door opens, it brushes the bell which rings. If the rogue doesn't have any way to see the bell, how can he detect it?
You didn't case the shop before the job? We are so disappointed in you. Please report to Guildbrother Jacob, he will help you with your memory lapses.
In our games, a rune or symbol could not be .triggered unless someone saw it, or actually touched it. The mirror trick I have qualms about. You are not seeing the Rune, you are seeing an image of the Rune, and a reversed image as well. I think I would have ruled that the inscribed had to make a Spellcraft check to allow the mirror trigger to work, and directly viewing it would not trigger it.
I think the PCs can always make a check. Given the FAQ about spellcasting always having an obvious manifestation, makes sense to me that the symbol would be glowing or muttering.
Also makes sense to me that the reflection would not trigger, or if it did the placement would mean the burst wouldn't affect someone not through the archway, so a mirror on a stick would give the trap finder a chance to DD or create a safe window to get past it.
I find symbols confusing in general, though.
Portals protected by symbols that can only be seen from one side (therefore hidden from the other side) would only protect from one-way travel.
Otherwise, it should function like any other trap. Any PC searching for traps can detect the trap even if they can see the symbol, Trap Spotters get a free check.,
In the old days and also with other systems another common area's of comment are;
1) How large does the symbol need to be and does it depend on the size of the caster?
1a) If it is sized based how large does it need to be and if smaller than a specific size does it not affect larger creatures.
For example : A 1" tall race carves symbols on gems commonly, is that large enough to count as in plain sight for normal sized creatures? Or Giant sized creatures?
Some other cases I have see symbols being used:
1) As assassination attempt: placed on object and placed under the lid of a toilet seat so when you lift to go ... you go.
2) As the idea above placed on gems to kill a gem merchant. The idea was that it was small enough to not trigger until you used a jewelers loop to study the quality of the gem and then it triggered the symbol.
3) On the face of steps.
Note: the symbol in the mirror was drawn backwards so when you looked at it it was the correct shape. I remember we had this discussion with the GM at the time (who was using a module from another system that we were playing) and it expressly said that it works as well as providing some game rules to do so in future games.
MDC
When a rogue makes a perception check to find such a symbol, what's really happening?
The rogue is pulling out a 60ft selfie stick with a mirror on the tip, brandishing it through the archway, and thus spotting the symbol via the mirror outside the triggering radius of the symbol.
C'mon guys, this is a game of imagination.
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