Phantom thief rogue


Advice


My group is going to start a game that focuses on political intrigue in the coming weeks and I want to try out a Phantom Thief from ultimate intrigue. It gives up sneak attack for massive boons to skill and the ability to take the combat trick rogue talent and the major magic rogue talent as much as you want (also certain social talents from the vigilante). So hypothetically I can get as many combat feats as a fighter.

The issue I'm having is trying to figure out the best route for combat. No sneak attack means less damage in combat and the class doesn't offer attack or damage buffs in the features. So what is my best option for combat?

It's a 25 point buy I'll probably be a human and an unchained rogue.


Removing sneak attack makes it more tempting to find that extra damage elsewhere.

But I think that it's probably best to let that go.

How about focusing on Dirty Tricks? You have the new Underhanded Trick talent that gives you Dirty Trick right away as well as the ability to grab Improved Dirty Trick at 6th level (with one of your infinite Combat Tricks).

Obviously you'd need Agile Maneuvers to get your DEX to dirty tricking.

At 10th level, you can get Stalker Talent to gain Expose Weakness to get a new nice effect to the list of Dirty Tricks.

If you wanna get extra tricky, you could be an Undine, get Hydraulic Maneuver, and then get Major Magic - Hydraulic Push to get a lot of uses out of it so you can keep Dirty Tricking even from range.


Well, obviously, the archetype isn't actually very good at combat. It's added skills and vigilante social talents, it's not designed for fighting.

That said, I'm going to tentatively suggest combat manoeuvres here, on the grounds that a) it's probably an all-humanoids campaign, and b) that without damage boosters you're not in the DPR race. Of course, without to-hit boosters the CMB race isn't going to be a barrel of laughs either, but with Dirty Fighting plus an "Improved X" feat you should be able to land things while flanking at least. Seems like Underhanded Trick is a thing to get, so you can be usefully blinding people.


One of the draws of the archetype is a skill boost of up to 10 skills equal to half your level. Are there any useful combat abilities that can use skills? I would consider feinting but that doesn't feel like it'd be too useful if no one has SA and I don't have abilities that trigger on denied dex.

I was considering grappling, tie-up and Then coup de grace. Or any ability that would help me get the helpless condition for assignation style combat.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Well, obviously, the archetype isn't actually very good at combat. It's added skills and vigilante social talents, it's not designed for fighting.

That said, I'm going to tentatively suggest combat manoeuvres here, on the grounds that a) it's probably an all-humanoids campaign, and b) that without damage boosters you're not in the DPR race. Of course, without to-hit boosters the CMB race isn't going to be a barrel of laughs either, but with Dirty Fighting plus an "Improved X" feat you should be able to land things while flanking at least. Seems like Underhanded Trick is a thing to get, so you can be usefully blinding people.

They can take major magic as often as they like, so they DO have options for combat and to hit boosts or even flanking with themselves.


Intimidate skill unlocks with stuff like Dazzling Display lets you get an AoE fear/panic attack against anything not immune at higher levels.


Alot of my options seem to be dedicated to denying dexterity (or making the enemy run). Outside of sneak attack are there any interesting abilities that are only triggered on denied dex or flat-foot?


Intimidate does sound like a great option, as do combat maneuvers. Maybe you could wield an elven branched spear for the occasional trip or disarm attack of opportunity. Or else a nonlethal weapon to use with Enforcer - the cruel weapon enchantment can also help a lot. Alternatively, Use Magic Device and wands are always a great idea.

Cass_Ponderovian wrote:
Are there any useful combat abilities that can use skills?

Well, since you asked... how about Bewildering Koan? It takes around three feats to get online - Racial Heritage (gnome) if you're set on staying human, Ki Pool rogue talent, Bewildering Koan itself, and maybe Extra Ki - but once you have it you can easily incapacitate enemy bosses as a swift action just by spending a ki point and making a Bluff check, retaining the rest of your actions for Intimidate or combat maneuvers. Given the nature of the campaign I'd guess that most of your enemies will be able to understand your koans, and it's not like you won't be maxing Bluff anyway. With a wyroot weapon to provide extra uses, this could be a very reliable way of contributing to combat.


Bewildering koan is a good idea. However, unchained monks can't take ki pool as a talent and giving up unchained gives up a lot of the power in the class (i.e. The unchained version gets up to 10 skill unlocks).

I should also note that I'm willing to dip if a build were to require it. Probably not enough to get a ki pool though. :p


Major magic (True Strike) and Quicken Spell-like Ability will massively increase the effectiveness of combat maneuvers.


Cass_Ponderovian wrote:

Bewildering koan is a good idea. However, unchained monks can't take ki pool as a talent and giving up unchained gives up a lot of the power in the class (i.e. The unchained version gets up to 10 skill unlocks).

I should also note that I'm willing to dip if a build were to require it. Probably not enough to get a ki pool though. :p

Oh, yeah, you definitely don't want to give up unchained. And the quickest dip I can think of for a ki pool is two levels of negotiator bard, which is probably not worth it.


I suggest abandoning offense in combat. Instead, become an aid-another specialist.

If you haven't chosen a race yet, go Halfling, with the Helpful Halfling Trait, granting the subject of your Aid Another action a +4 bonus, instead of a +2. I believe there's also a feat that lets you share your Adaptable Luck Alternate Racial Trait with others, but I can't find it atm. The Fortunate One Halfling feat gives you an extra use of Adaptable Luck per day, and at level 10, you can pick up Adaptive Fortune for an additional use per day, and the bonus increases by +2. The Fate's Favored Trait increases any Luck Bonuses you get by +1. So by level 11, you'll get a free +5 on any save you make 5/day. I don't believe it's the feat I was thinking of, but Lucky Halfling lets you make a save and give the result to an ally within 30'.

So you're not likely providing much offense in combat, but each round, you could be giving an ally a +4 to attack or AC (and out of combat, a +4 to any skill made), and almost always prevent one of them from failing a save once per day. Not especially flashy, but you'll easily be everyone's favorite companion.


I'm trying to decide between a grapple build and an Attack of oppurtunity build with panther style.

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