In an upcoming campaign, I'm considering playing an Oradin (it'll be a first for our group), but I'd like to double-check that my build looks solid enough - in particular, it's the level-by-level progression that has me feeling uncertain.
The build:
Half-elf Chosen One/Hospitaler Paladin*/Life Oracle (Legalistic)
(*our group has ruled that archetypes which modify the same ability in ways that don't interfere/conflict may be combined. Since Chosen One delays the level at which you first get Smite Evil and Hospitaler further delays Smite Evil progression, I have the thumbs-up to use both.)
Stats (20 pt buy)
S 16
D 12
C 14
I 7
W 10
Ch 15+2
Deity
Sheylyn
Traits
Adopted (Gnome)
* Animal Friend
Feats
1. Fey Foundling
3. Racial Heritage (Gnome)
5. Clarifying Channel (Sheylyn)
Level Progression
1. Paladin
2. Paladin
3. Oracle (Life Link)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Oracle
7. Oracle (Channel Energy)
8. Oracle or Paladin
9+ Paladin
Favored Class Benefits
1. +1/2 level lay on hands healing (elf)
3. +1/2 level curse progression (gnome)
(And continuing to advance those FCB for the rest of the character's career)
Racial Alternates
* +2 Will (Replaces Adaptability)
Key Gear to Acquire:
Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Boots of the Earth
Bracers of the Merciful Knight
Concept
The concept for the character is that she's a pure innocent: a sweet, naive girl with a heart of gold. She was found in the woods as a child by gnomes, worships Sheylyn, loves animals, has a talking thrush familiar - your basic Disney princess. She's also tough-as-nails, no-nonsense, honest to a fault, and fiercely protective of her friends - so, basically your modern Disney princess.
I realize I could afford to tank her Wisdom instead of Intelligence given how massive her Will save is going to end up (since both Paladin and Oracle have Favored Will saves, Divine Grace, alternate half-elf, Emissary familiar gives her a reroll, Legalistic lets her mind search for loopholes, etc), but this is going to be a character for Strange Aeons, so the Will stacking is kind of intentional.
It seems like the build doesn't *really* come online until about level 8, hence the general unease mentioned very early on (it's not a problem if that's just how the build works, I just wasn't sure if I was missing something.)
Thanks in advance for the view and feedback.
The problem with this build is you can't decide if you want to be a tank or a caster. You really need to focus on one and dip into the other. Paladin 2/oracle x or paladin 2/oracle x/ holy vindicator x are probably a better route to go.
Tank/healer is definitely the primary role. I'm barely concerned with the spellcasting from Oracle and am only increasing Oracle levels enough to life link with the whole party and then combat heal like crazy with Lay on Hands.
Holy Vindicator is nice, but advancing Lay on Hands is a primary concern, and Paladin 4 is necessary with Chosen One - regardless, Hospitaler (and paladin in general) both reward as many paladin levels as possible. Moving into a PrC also stops channel energy, familiar, and FCB advancement.
This may help clear up what I'm looking to accomplish:
At 10, some of the key features of the build (with gear) would be:
* Life Link with the whole party
* Channel Energy (Hospitaler): 3+5 uses/day healing 4d6 damage with phylactery (4d6+8 on self)
* Channel Energy (Oracle): 1+5 uses/day healing 4d6 damage with phylactery (4d6+8 on self)
* Lay on Hands: 5+5 uses/day healing 5d6+3damage with bracers (5d6+13 on self)
*Effective Oracle level 9 for curse (improving to 10 at level 12)
* Will Save +17: +5 Paladin, +4 Oracle, +2 Half-Elf, +1 Animal Friend, +5 Charisma
I suppose I could see dropping Racial Heritage (Gnome) and give up the +2 curse advancement (essentially what I'm getting out of the feat.)
Getting the level 10 Legalistic benefit at 12 instead of 16 is quite nice, though.
Ever thought about VMC bard?
Interesting thought :) Thematically, I quite like it, but I - and more importantly, our group - consider it an alternative rule set that would replace standard multiclassing rather than something that could supplement it.
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Or VMC Cavalier (Order of the Star). It increases the strength of your lay on hands and channel energy by 50%.
Or VMC Cavalier (Order of the Star). It increases the strength of your lay on hands and channel energy by 50%.
Okay, that's sexy. Maybe I need to start convincing my group that multiclassing and variant multiclassing are fine to combine after all...
EDIT: Given that this is not a feat-intensive build, if I were able to go this route, it would mean that (at 10th), I would add +3d6 healing to my channel energy and lay on hands for a total of 7d6 channel energy (7d6+14 self) with 14 uses per day, and 8d6+3 lay on hands (8d6+19 self) with an extra 5 uses per day for a total of 15 daily uses.
That's... that's insane. I'm not sure I can even do that in good conscience. It's certainly worth the feat investment, though.
(I actually realized that I need to swap around my Dex, Int, and Wis to Dex 10, Int 12, and Wis 7 after all. My Will save will still end up being excellent, but I randomly realized at work that I'll need the extra skill points since I have to max out Handle Animal and Perform (Sing) to fulfill the Disney princess theme. The low Wisdom also fits better into the naiveté concept since the -2 Sense Motive check thematically represents that kind of gullibility and innocence.)
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What ever you decide will be fun I am sure.
I just mention Options. I have a build Oradin vmc Bard myself. It's very nice support character cause I trade off Paladin spells for an archetype. So the Bardic performance at level 7 replaces the Paladin Buffs/spells I would be using on the group.
If it doesn't work with your group its fine...we just didn't know coming in what is/isn't allowed.
Tho the suggestion of Order of the Star...I never looked at that little combo. Very nice
What ever you decide will be fun I am sure.
I just mention Options. I have a build Oradin vmc Bard myself. It's very nice support character cause I trade off Paladin spells for an archetype. So the Bardic performance at level 7 replaces the Paladin Buffs/spells I would be using on the group.
If it doesn't work with your group its fine...we just didn't know coming in what is/isn't allowed.
Tho the suggestion of Order of the Star...I never looked at that little combo. Very nice
Warrior of Holy Light? I've been side-eyeing that one. Looks good, but also looks like it could be a trap, lol.
No, I actually really love the idea of the VMC bard with this concept - it fits very well. That said, at this point, if I was going to go VMC, I'd be hard-pressed not to pick Cavalier.
If you just want to tank and heal, then the build is fine, but spellcasting is so much better.
Oh, definitely. But this character will be coming in on the tails of a Mythic Heirophant Cleric/Hellknight Signifer in Wrath of the Righteous, so I'm getting to do *all the things* when it comes to spellcasting, so a change of pace will be nice. I originally wanted *that* character to be a tank (though I'm not complaining about how the build opened up.)
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What ever you decide will be fun I am sure.
I just mention Options. I have a build Oradin vmc Bard myself. It's very nice support character cause I trade off Paladin spells for an archetype. So the Bardic performance at level 7 replaces the Paladin Buffs/spells I would be using on the group.
If it doesn't work with your group its fine...we just didn't know coming in what is/isn't allowed.
Tho the suggestion of Order of the Star...I never looked at that little combo. Very nice
Warrior of Holy Light? I've been side-eyeing that one. Looks good, but also looks like it could be a trap, lol.
No, I actually really love the idea of the VMC bard with this concept - it fits very well. That said, at this point, if I was going to go VMC, I'd be hard-pressed not to pick Cavalier.
Yes warrior of Holy Light lol. Extra LoH uses is a Key feature.
+1 morale bonus to AC and on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear as long as they remain in the area of light.
Works along side Performance buffs. But is a good buff to have Prior to Getting the Performance.
8th level, the nimbus of light heals the paladin and her allies, curing of them of 1d4 points of ability damage, as per the spell lesser restoration.
I know a wand of L. Resto is cheap but the casting time of 3 rounds makes it not usable in combat but a standard action fix is pretty good for a Healer.
But to be honest the Typical build is good too.
I was making this build and I find that I am not sure which way to go either. It hits full stride around 9th with 5 levels of Paladin and 4 levels of Oracle. The 4 person life link is all I need for the group. By taking a couple of levels above a traditional dip I did not lose any BAB and I picked up a couple of extras through the oracle levels. I am having a hard time deciding what extra feats to take. Fey Foundling is my 1st level and Power Attack 3rd. After that I felt like it was a little lack luster. I picked up Greater Mercy at 5th because I figured healing myself more often than not I would not need a status effect removed and gives me a nice boost. But after that I wasn't sure which way to go. I thought about having a reach weapon and Quick Draw to use my two hander when they got in my face. But, even that felt kinda blah... Any other ideas?
I've given some thought to picking up Quick Channel and Selective Channel, but I'll need/want to feel out how necessary it is. You certainly end up with plenty of channel energy uses that the double channel cost isn't prohibitive.
Toughness and Diehard seem like they'd both be solid picks.
It helps me quite a lot that our group uses the World is Square Feat Tax Removal house rules, so I don't have to worry about burning a feat on Power Attack. Otherwise, I'd certainly have to pick it up
EDIT: Maybe some Channel Smite/Alignment Channel shenanigans?
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I've given some thought to picking up Quick Channel and Selective Channel, but I'll need/want to feel out how necessary it is. You certainly end up with plenty of channel energy uses that the double channel cost isn't prohibitive.
Toughness and Diehard seem like they'd both be solid picks.
It helps me quite a lot that our group uses the World is Square Feat Tax Removal house rules, so I don't have to worry about burning a feat on Power Attack. Otherwise, I'd certainly have to pick it up
EDIT: Maybe some Channel Smite/Alignment Channel shenanigans?
You could up your dex to 14 and lower your Str slightly (to a 15) or your Cha (to a 16 after racial) and pick up a Glaive and use Combat Reflexes to get in AoOs.
I've never been a fan of most the channel feats myself. But free power attack is a nice thing.
Typically Extra LoHs is more effective than Toughness on paladins. On a Oradin its a bit of a Toss up and depends on how much paladin levels your using.
Has anyone considered a slightly different option and build an archer version of this character. I mean stand still to get the healing from the boots and just plink away at the bad guys and heal up your buddies when they get damaged. Then maybe even travel up the snap shot feat tree to get some good solid AOO damage and board control? Then you are just rocking Dex and Cha as stats you need to be a party buffer and damage dealer with some light crowd control... Con to keep your HP up and frankly you can dump darn near everything else.
Has anyone considered a slightly different option and build an archer version of this character. I mean stand still to get the healing from the boots and just plink away at the bad guys and heal up your buddies when they get damaged. Then maybe even travel up the snap shot feat tree to get some good solid AOO damage and board control? Then you are just rocking Dex and Cha as stats you need to be a party buffer and damage dealer with some light crowd control... Con to keep your HP up and frankly you can dump darn near everything else.
Extremely viable. Halfling makes a great race choice with +Dex/Cha and small size for an AC & attack bonus. Gnomes work nicely, too.
Here, check out this character I've got up to level 8 in an Iron Gods PBP.
At level 8, he is 4/4, and using much the same what you are doing. Although, I went with some different feat choices, like Greater Mercy. By adding the extra 1d6, it also adds the Fey Foundling bonus again.
Chakos can also dish out the damage as well.
I believe that in the profile I have snapshots of what he looked like at some earlier levels too.
Here, check out this character I've got up to level 8 in an Iron Gods PBP.
At level 8, he is 4/4, and using much the same what you are doing. Although, I went with some different feat choices, like Greater Mercy. By adding the extra 1d6, it also adds the Fey Foundling bonus again.
Chakos can also dish out the damage as well.
I believe that in the profile I have snapshots of what he looked like at some earlier levels too.
You're quite right, that's really close to what I'm going for :)
I actually had missed that Greater Mercy increases LoH healing if the mercy isn't needed, that's not bad.
The fact that you have both Extra LoH and Greater Mercy definitely makes it seem like the VMC Cavalier (OotS) is extremely worth the feat investment.
I actually had missed that Greater Mercy increases LoH healing if the mercy isn't needed, that's not bad.
The fact that you have both Extra LoH and Greater Mercy definitely makes it seem like the VMC Cavalier (OotS) is extremely worth the feat investment.
And that with the extra 1d6 on LOH you get another +2 from Fey Foundling.
I'm shooting for Ultimate Mercy at 9th level. I won't have the needed number of LOH available to use it, BUT I can cast eagle's splendor to get there in an emergency.
Pretty sure Eagle's Splendor doesn't grant you extra uses of LoH (that's the main difference between "temporary" and "permanent" bonuses to stats, correct me if I'm wrong here), but Bracers of the Merciful Knight will help.
Are you allowed to use 3rd party feats? If so, check this out: Mystical Healer
Your skills at magical healing are without peer.
Benefit: You add additional dice to any form of healing you generate yourself (extraordinary abilities, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities).
Caster Level Additional Healing Dice
1st-3rd +1d4
4th-6th +1d6
7th-9th +2d6
10th-12th +3d6
13th +4d6
Special: If you do not possess a caster level, use half your character level, rounded down to determine additional healing dice for supernatural or extraordinary abilities.
When channeling energy to harm an opponent, do not add additional dice. These apply only when healing.
You might want to use a Magical Knack trait to improve one of your caster levels for this since you'll be multi-classing.
correct me if I'm wrong hereAs requested...
I provide two FAQ entries. The first demonstrates that there is no difference between "temporary" and "permanent" ability score increases.
The second shows how to handle such a temp increase in this instance. A +4 to CHA will give 2 more LOH uses per day, but once used that day, they're done. I can't temp up the CHA again for 2 more. My plan with Ultimate Mercy, is that if an ally falls on a Monday, presumably I'll have burned some LOH during that fight. Bright and early Tuesday, I'll throw down eagle's splendor, raise my buddy, and hope to stay out of trouble until Wednesday when I can renew my LOHs.
Really good to know. I had this niggling thought in the back of my head that I'd heard something like this, so thanks for clearing that up.
Just curious, would that work like bonus HP during a Barbarian's Rage? You get the bonus HP/LoH while the buff is up, but they're not used "first" and if the buff ends you can end up in negatives? (I'm assuming there's not really any downside to having -2 uses of LoH left, aside from the obvious that you can't use LoH?)
So the main uses for this would be:
- The aforementioned Ultimate Mercy when you don't have enough LoH to power it.
- To add damage to something like Radiant Charge (or to have a way of using LoH after using Radiant Charge).
- To heal at the end of the day after you've run out of LoH uses.
(sorry if the links are bad, or the wrong links, I'm having trouble with my internet)
Edit: Links are checked & should be working, it seems like turning your computer off-and-on-again really does fix all your problems!
I'll make this the last post on this topic, don't wanna derail the thread too much, but this is good stuff.