So I've just updated my playtest vigilante, Caybun Weer (aka, The Dark Knight) to the real deal, and I gotta say...I'm not terribly impressed with it.
The Dark Knight, 12th-level human masked vigilante
The Dark Knight specializes in hunting down and ambushing his foes, preferably with hit and run tactics. If enemies are alone or far apart from one another, he maintains his stealth, moving in and dragging each enemy quietly into the shadows before dispatching them, one by one.
To do this, he uses his Pull Into The Shadows vigilante talent to approach an enemy from hiding. He then strikes the target for his unarmed damage (1d8+12) plus his hidden strike damage (6d8). Once struck, he makes an Intimidate check to demoralize his foe as a free action with his Frightening Appearance class ability. Once the target is demoralized (and possibly frightened as well) he also suffers from an additional 6d4 nonlethal damage and may be dragged into the shadows (per the combat maneuver). The Silent Dispatch and Throat Jab vigilante talents ensure none of the target's allies hear what is happening to their lone companion all the while.
When facing a group of alert enemies in a tighter area, the Dark Knight may rush in, attacking the nearest foe from an area of darkness, as above (creating darkness by destroying torches beforehand with his stylized chakram if need be), but having his Frightening Appearance and Twisting Fear abilities damage and debuff all other foes within 10 feet of the target as well. Against enemies who can't see in the dark, he simply repeats the hit and run, dragging enemies into the shadows to beat them to a pulp. Against enemies who can see into the darkness, he instead relies on Spring Attack to break line of sight, allowing stealth checks, and to keep his enemies on their toes and preventing them from making full attacks against him.
Being able to deal 60ish damage at 12th-level under ideal conditions seems rather lackluster to me--especially since that can only happen when the enemy is wholly unaware of me. After that surprise round, DPR takes a serious nose dive.
Does the vigilante class leave much to be desired, from a combat perspective, or did I just do something really wrong in my build?
Maybe go avenger with Fist of the Avenger (+5 damage to unarmed strikes) and TWF feats instead of hit-and-run tactics?
Or if sticking with stalker, pick up Up Close and Personal talent instead of Spring Attack feat?
Maybe go avenger with Fist of the Avenger (+5 damage to unarmed strikes) and TWF feats instead of hit-and-run tactics?
Or if sticking with stalker, pick up Up Close and Personal talent instead of Spring Attack feat?
Last I checked, you can't switch out a feat for a vigilante talent.
Umm sorry, I thought you were in the midst of rebuilding? I didn't mean swap out a feat for a talent; I meant as part of the rebuild, instead of going the Spring Attack feat tree and free up 3 feats, pick up Up Close and Personal in place of another talent (Such as Silent Dispatch. Is that one necessary when you got Throat Punch and Pull into Shadows?).
Umm sorry, I thought you were in the midst of rebuilding? I didn't mean swap out a feat for a talent; I meant as part of the rebuild, instead of going the Spring Attack feat tree and free up 3 feats, pick up Up Close and Personal in place of another talent (Such as Silent Dispatch. Is that one necessary when you got Throat Punch and Pull into Shadows?).
Throat punching and roughly pulling someone into the shadows has a Perception DC of -10, so yes, it's pretty necessary if I don't want to alert nearby enemies to my presence.
(Especially since, once they are alerted, half my vigilante abilities cease functioning.)
If I was going to rebuild him to fight, I'd just make him an avenger. Still, I'm very surprised at how ineffective a stalker seems to be at what you'd think a stalker would be best at (ambushing).
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Still, I'm very surprised at how ineffective a stalker seems to be at what you'd think a stalker would be best at (ambushing).
I would say the game system as a whole doesn't do well with the cinematic concept of an ambush taking out a foe instantly. There are some descent reasons for this, but at that is probably what it making it ineffective.
In other words, I think your character is pretty good at being an ambusher in a system that doesn't reward and isn't really set up for ambushing (in the cinematic take them out instantly sense, not just achieving surprise).
You can increase your damage with Nightstalker tonics (200 gp each): does cost 1 burn though.
You can add the new magic item stuff:
Silencing weapons had Perception 20 higher than normal combat to hear (increases toward DC +10 instead of -10).
Unseen also since 1/rd deny dex to an attk (unless has blindfight feat)
Shadowhand pellets in a punch can be useful.
Suppose a lot of what you are trying doesn't work. You still end up with a foe who's:
taken 58 points of damage
can't speak
is frightenedThat's pretty rough, and is hard to resist.
Yep, that's enough to take out a CR 5...at 12th-level.
And if everything doesn't work like you say, then the other enemies in the area likely become alerted to my presence, which means I can't even repeat that kind of subpar damage again in the same combat.
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Yeah, Dave is right. The problem here is less the vigilante and more that single attacks, alpha strikes and hit and run tactics are not well supported by Pathfinder.
Except if you ambush a guy with disintegrate.
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It looks like his damage if he hits stays at a consistent 60ish in future rounds with a flank from an ally even without haste or similar sources of extra attacks (2 attacks for 1d8+12+6d4). TWF feats instead of Spring Attack and haste could push this to 150ish with all five hits, which would be quite good if so (also that build might consider Canny Feint and Surprise Strike, which gives up one of those 4-5 attacks in exchange for denying Dex to you and allies and +2 more to hit, obviating the need for flanking if you're solo too). As Protoman mentioned, Up Close and Personal + Leave an Opening could give you more if you make the Acrobatics check, roughly 102 if all hit (and all at full BAB) counting the AoO while staying mobile and avoiding a full attack.
If you want to stay more in the realm of one-shot ambushes, though, I would think Mighty Ambush would be a potentially better choice than throat jab against a weaker foe, since the DC is usually no slouch. Granted it's also true that in keeping with idea that Batman is good at everything, the character's ability scores are spread around enough that the Dex is lower than I would expect a level 12 PC who uses Dex for accuracy to have, which is going to affect actual damage per round via accuracy (doesn't affect these numbers you and I have listed so far assuming hits because we didn't crunch accuracy) and would affect Mighty Ambush's DC if he had it (he would be at DC 20, vs maybe 22 or 23 with higher Dex).
Even with his entirely current loadout, if he's on a team of level 12 PCs, his surprise round actions (either drag an important foe right up to the party for a beatdown or drag a lieutenant and let them run frightened for a bit while the party focuses on a higher-priority target) are a pretty good start to the fight. He just needs to think about where he'll go from there, and there are several good options available for that.
There's some reliance on trading hitpoints for drama. Just insta-winning on someone often comes across as "boring".
Suppose a lot of what you are trying doesn't work. You still end up with a foe who's:
taken 58 points of damage
can't speak
is frightened
Compared to a two-weapon fighting knife master unchained rogue or a sap master unchained rogue that's rather pedestrian. When a rogue is better at your schtict that you are... Wow.
I feel like the vigilante works really well with a ninja dip. If you can turn invisible as a swift action, you greatly increase your ability to reliably pull off this trick, though you're still out of luck vs blindsight, tremorsense, etc.
That won't work because they're still aware of you.
Yeah, you have to run away (unseen/invisible), wait a few minutes and come back.
They have to stop being in danger for a time for them to be unaware again if you read the new rules in Ultimate Intrigue.
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Hit and run tactics as a primary thing are weak in Pathfinder in general. So...yeah, this is more your build than it is Vigilante.
Mark's suggestions are all (obviously) good, too.
There are much nastier Vigilante builds than this one, even specifically for Batman inspired builds (for example, I think Batman should be a Psychometrist, though I suppose that might be considered cheating).
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Yeah, you have to run away (unseen/invisible), wait a few minutes and come back.
They have to stop being in danger for a time for them to be unaware again if you read the new rules in Ultimate Intrigue.
...that might be the most video game mechanic I've ever read for an RPG.
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Hit and run tactics as a primary thing are weak in Pathfinder in general. So...yeah, this is more your build than it is Vigilante.
Mark's suggestions are all (obviously) good, too.
There are much nastier Vigilante builds than this one, even specifically for Batman inspired builds (for example, I think Batman should be a Psychometrist, though I suppose that might be considered cheating).
Yeah, psychometrist could be pretty ballers, ignoring utility and going purely for those numbers on the ambush, a prebuffed bane adds 9 damage per hit (and that only uses 1 of the 3 enhancements you get at 12), and the psychometrist is going to have 6 total focus powers at level 12.
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Yeah, psychometrist could be pretty ballers, ignoring utility and going purely for those numbers on the ambush, a prebuffed bane adds 9 damage per hit (and that only uses 1 of the 3 enhancements you get at 12), and the psychometrist is going to have 6 total focus powers at level 12.
Even utility-wise, the Psychometrist build I have in mind for Batman (Transmutation - Bane, Sudden Speed, Fly, Illusion - Figment, Invisibility, Divination - Roll bonuses) has quite a few tricks, especially since I'd also definitely give him Inspired Vigilante (because Batman should have Inspiration if anyone does).
But yeah, in combat, tacking on Bane is the main advantage that build possesses.
If you want to stay more in the realm of one-shot ambushes, though, I would think Mighty Ambush would be a potentially better choice than throat jab against a weaker foe, since the DC is usually no slouch. Granted it's also true that in keeping with idea that Batman is good at everything, the character's ability scores are spread around enough that the Dex is lower than I would expect a level 12 PC who uses Dex for accuracy to have, which is going to affect actual damage per round via accuracy (doesn't affect these numbers you and I have listed so far assuming hits because we didn't crunch accuracy) and would affect Mighty Ambush's DC if he had it (he would be at DC 20, vs maybe 22 or 23 with higher Dex).
Even with his entirely current loadout, if he's on a team of level 12 PCs, his surprise round actions (either drag an important foe right up to the party for a beatdown or drag a lieutenant and let them run frightened for a bit while the party focuses on a higher-priority target) are a pretty good start to the fight. He just needs to think about where he'll go from there, and there are several good options available for that.
The playtest version of the character did have Mighty Ambush. I dropped it because the DC was laughable at 12th-level. Even against mooks, there was roughly a 50/50 chance of it just failing outright. For someone's primary trick which has lots of invested resources over the course of twelve levels, those odds are terrible!
Granted, this version of the character has slightly higher Dexterity, but the DC would have remained pretty laughable.
I hadn't considered him pulling a foe towards other allies for a team beat down. That sounded pretty appealing to me--right up until I realized that the moment one of them throws a punch without the Silent Dispatch vigilante talent, they will almost always give MY position away, thereby nullifying half my class abilities!
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If you want to stay more in the realm of one-shot ambushes, though, I would think Mighty Ambush would be a potentially better choice than throat jab against a weaker foe, since the DC is usually no slouch. Granted it's also true that in keeping with idea that Batman is good at everything, the character's ability scores are spread around enough that the Dex is lower than I would expect a level 12 PC who uses Dex for accuracy to have, which is going to affect actual damage per round via accuracy (doesn't affect these numbers you and I have listed so far assuming hits because we didn't crunch accuracy) and would affect Mighty Ambush's DC if he had it (he would be at DC 20, vs maybe 22 or 23 with higher Dex).
Even with his entirely current loadout, if he's on a team of level 12 PCs, his surprise round actions (either drag an important foe right up to the party for a beatdown or drag a lieutenant and let them run frightened for a bit while the party focuses on a higher-priority target) are a pretty good start to the fight. He just needs to think about where he'll go from there, and there are several good options available for that.
The playtest version of the character did have Mighty Ambush. I dropped it because the DC was laughable at 12th-level. Even against mooks, there was roughly a 50/50 chance of it just failing outright. For someone's primary trick which has lots of invested resources over the course of twelve levels, those odds are terrible!
Granted, this version of the character has slightly higher Dexterity, but the DC would have remained pretty laughable.
I hadn't considered him pulling a foe towards other allies for a team beat down. That sounded pretty appealing to me--right up until I realized that the moment one of them throws a punch without the Silent Dispatch vigilante talent, they will almost always give MY position away, thereby nullifying half my class abilities!
Yeah, this particular character's stat array doesn't sing to Mighty Ambush. The 10 + 1/2 level + Dex or Str modifier DC is going to give you a DC that's on par with witch hexes if your Str/Dex is similar to the witch's Int (same for other classes with 10 + 1/2 level + stat as the DC) though, and with some help it's usually easier to pump physical ability scores than it is to pump mental ability scores. In a more Dex-focused build of a similar concept, it'll be a pretty significant DC for an add-on effect to your attack, but I think you're right that the throat jab is better here.
As to teamwork vs lone wolf, it really depends on how you want to set it up; I'd recommend teamwork unless you have ideal conditions for the lone wolf thing. Any of the setups/tweaks DMW, Protoman, or I mentioned are going to do just fine against foes who are aware of your presence. The vigilante is designed to be buildable as a functional and effective team member even if you rarely or never trigger those unaware abilities, since it's hard to guess how often you'll have the advantage like that.
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Yeah, I think building a Stalker to try and actually use those d8s more than once a combat is sorta a fool's errand. I mean, that's clearly your goal here and it just...sorta doesn't work.
If you instead just use stealth alone to get that bonus once, and then make do with d4s and flanking the rest of the time, you free up huge numbers of resources to make you actually really scary even with only d4s.
If you instead just use stealth alone to get that bonus once, and then make do with d4s and flanking the rest of the time, you free up huge numbers of resources to make you actually really scary even with only d4s.
Scary with only d4s? I'm not seeing how that's possible. Almost every build I can think of, one would be better off playing an avenger or a rogue--especially since the latter can poach vigilante abilities.
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If you instead just use stealth alone to get that bonus once, and then make do with d4s and flanking the rest of the time, you free up huge numbers of resources to make you actually really scary even with only d4s.Scary with only d4s? I'm not seeing how that's possible. Almost every build I can think of, one would be better off playing an avenger or a rogue--especially since the latter can poach vigilante abilities.
Avenger is probably better offensively, yeah. Stalker's benefits are more defensive in nature (Evasion and Uncanny Dodge leap to mind), plus some subtlety and utility (which, BTW, you're taking only minimal advantage of, with just Twisting Fear and Throat Jab as Stalker-Only Talents...with only that many Talents invested, I'd go Avenger instead).
As for Unchained Rogue...they may be better at combat offensively than a base Stalker (Psychometrist closes the gap IMO), but only a little, the Stalker's Good will Save makes up for a lot, and they distinctly lack all the skill bonuses from Social Talents the Stalker grants, and can only ever grab one Vigilante Talent.
So...yeah, you're not wrong that other builds might do better offensively. But there are still some scary things you can do with Stalker. Keep Twisting Fear, take Enforcer and the TWF Feats, use flanking, and you're doing 12d4 on any round you hit someone once, and 6d4 on each additional hit. That's gonna serve you lots better than the hit-and-run build, IMO.
To reiterate the above a bit: Stalker has some great Talents. Probably better than Avenger in many ways. But absent those Talents it's worse than Avenger...so I'd basically never take Stalker on anyt character who wasn't gonna spend most of their Vigilante Talents on Stalker Talents (plus one or two mainstays like Lethal Grace). Not doing so is sort of a waste.
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Up close and personal + shadow's speed + sure footed talents is as good as Spring Attack for hit and run one hit per round d8's hidden strike at low to mid levels. More consistent at higher levels with magic investment. That leave an opening combo sounds awesome and I'll be recommending to every stalker PC I see.