Touch Attacks and Damage


Rules Questions


I've had a build based on Produce Flame bouncing around in my head for a while, and while I was working on optimizing it I ran into a question. Can I add my Strength Modifier to damage?

The description for Produce Flame says that you can "hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon [...] and deal the same damage as with the melee attack". In the section on Damage in Combat, "When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result."

First, this made me wonder whether I could add my Str Mod to damage with the thrown version, but another question came up while I was searching for an answer. Flame Blade has a very similar effect, but it specifically calls out that your Strength Mod doesn't apply to the damage. That made me wonder if you're generally supposed to apply your Strength Mod to damge with Touch spells. After all, you're considered armed when making a touch attack with a spell, and the section for damage only refers to whether or not your attack hits, not what kind of attack it is. Most modifiers that apply to weapon attack damage apply to "weapon-like spells", eg. Inspire Courage and Weapon Specialization. Beyond that, Power Attack and Deadly Aim specify that they can't be used with touch attacks.

I've been playing various d20 games for years now and every group I've ever gamed with has been under the impression that you don't add Strength to your touch attacks, but it's one of those rules that I picked up from someone who had been playing longer than I had and never questioned.

I've spent a few days scouring the forums and the SRD for any kind of official ruling on this, but I've come up empty. I can't seem to find any kind of answer to the question anywhere. It seems pretty reasonable that you could add your Strength Modifier given how many of your modifiers you can add, but I still feel like I'm missing something.


You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
This is your melee damage. Touch attacks don't add str to them.


Why not? Is there anything official that says you don't add strength to touch attacks? Again, this is an assumption I've been running on for 10+ years, but I've never seen any rules stating it.

A longsword does 1d8 damage. I add my strength because it says I do under Damage. A melee touch attack is still a melee attack. A Thrown Weapon that makes a ranged touch attack is still a thrown weapon. If the hang up is "equal to", what about Shocking Grasp or Elemental Touch? They don't use the same language.


Quote:
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

You won't add your strength modifier to the melee touch attack, as it isn't a weapon attack. You can argue that you could possibly add it when throwing the flame, as it specifies it is a thrown weapon.

Quote:
In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

Since it deals the same damage as the melee attack, and the melee attack doesn't include your Strength modifier, the ranged damage shouldn't either.


So then Produce Flame doesn't count as a "weapon-like spell"? Does that mean it wouldn't gain the bonuses from Inspire Courage either? Do you not count as armed while wielding it?


If it works as a thrown weapon, use Startoss Style with it.


ZucchiniSpooks: "So then Produce Flame doesn't count as a "weapon-like spell"?"

It does count. The thing is, a "weapon-like spell" doesn't add strength by default.

Look at the spell Gozreh’s Trident once or Flame Blade. It acts JUST like a weapon, but they explain "Since the bolt/blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage."

Now look at ice dagger. "You create a masterwork dagger out of ice". It's a physical object and you can deal strength damage with it. Thorn Javelin too creates a physical object. "A wooden thorn the size of a javelin".

Spells that create physical objects add strength. Spells that create immaterial weapons don't. Fire/flame is immaterial.


ZucchiniSpooks wrote:

I've had a build based on Produce Flame bouncing around in my head for a while, and while I was working on optimizing it I ran into a question. Can I add my Strength Modifier to damage?

The description for Produce Flame says that you can "hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon [...] and deal the same damage as with the melee attack". In the section on Damage in Combat, "When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result."

A spell isn't a weapon.

However, if you want to be able to add your STR mod to spells, look no further than:

Holding a charge wrote:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

I'm having trouble locating the specific rules that explicitly go into further detail, but touch attacks - spells aside - do not add ability damage.

I mean, can you imagine alchemist bombs getting +Int mod damage and +Str mod damage?


Alright, thanks for clearing that up guys. Nice to know we haven't been misusing the rules all these years. I'm gonna wander on over to Advice and see if I can stack up any more damage bonuses.


I actually learned something, though. I wasn't aware you could stack a damaging spell on to an unarmed strike or natural attack.


Gulthor wrote:
I actually learned something, though. I wasn't aware you could stack a damaging spell on to an unarmed strike or natural attack.

Normally you can, and I've played characters that do, but I think not with Produce Flame. Since it doesn't actually have Range: Touch you aren't technically holding a charge. To deal it's damage you have to make it's specific attack. Could be wrong about that. Not exactly batting a thousand right now.

That said, even if you can use it to punch people I'll probably stick with thrown. More flexible, higher AC, and I really like the idea of pelting someone with fire from half a battlefield away. Really, I made this thread because I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something before I dumped Strength ^_^


Go monk and pick up an item that has use/day of chill touch. Proceed to browbeat things with your icy fist of juicetus.

Or, you could go rogue and deliver sneak attacks with vampiric touch. Your sneak attacks practically double as caster level, damage wise.

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