taking a stab at DMing and such stuff got questions


Beginner Box


1.) when doing a session 0 what kinda information should i tell or with hold. more precisely should i tell them what kind of creatures they will be facing?

2.) is it okay to keep the world vague? so it can grow to fit the players? i wana promote a tiny bit of creativity with my fellow player because they are way to "by the rule and whats in the books any story" kinda people. you can't do this because in the book its shown as this or you can't do that because mister X wouldn't be able to finish..... having my world set in another world would be like putting my hands in cuffs and a foot in a bear trap.

3.) how do i get the players to build their group into something that would work for what i am going to throw at them?

4.) should a DM have a personal character? to have some sort of connection to the group/ to keep from wanting to TPW. or something here. not sure its late.

5.) should i plan some random encounters?

6.) how do you get "it" across to your player that they should not do X? like this is a talk encounter and not a fight encounter. whats the max CR i should be throwing at a party of 3-4 lvl one PCs?


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zainale wrote:
1.) when doing a session 0 what kinda information should i tell or with hold. more precisely should i tell them what kind of creatures they will be facing?

Unless you're planing on something odd, no. The standard assumption is that any party will face a wide variety of enemies.

But if you're planing on managing a campaign centred around a political intrigue among elfs as their home forest is being overrun with undead, then you should probably tell this to your players. You don't want to lessen the fun for the player playing a Ranger with Goblins as a favored enemy by deciding goblins went extinct.

zainale wrote:
2.) is it okay to keep the world vague? so it can grow to fit the players? i wana promote a tiny bit of creativity with my fellow player because they are way to "by the rule and whats in the books any story" kinda people. you can't do this because in the book its shown as this or you can't do that because mister X wouldn't be able to finish..... having my world set in another world would be like putting my hands in cuffs and a foot in a bear trap.

You can keep the world vague, sure.

Let then know the camping starts in The Kingdom of Arelion, dominated by humans, and that there's a mountain range with dwarfs to the east and a big elf-inhabited forest south of the kingdom. And that's pretty much everything they and you know.

However, make sure you tell your players things about the world as you come up with them, if their characters should know it. You don't want to surprise them by having an NPC ask the party why don't you wear your mandatory medallions to the kings well being, you'll be thrown in prision!. That's a bit extreme, but you get the idea I hope.

And ask your players to contribute. Can be big, like asking them to come up with a kingdom in the north. Or, probably better, a minor detail. Asking them what's the latest fashion in town is rather innocuous, but still fun for a player to answer. Something in-between would be asking what monster is most known and feared in a part of the country. Also good.

zainale wrote:
3.) how do i get the players to build their group into something that would work for what i am going to throw at them?

You tell them what you will throw at them. However, Pathfinder characters are rather competent no matter what. Again, if you just plan to throw some goblins, a troll, a horde of zombies and end with a dragon big bad evil guy, you don't have to tell them exactly that.

zainale wrote:
4.) should a DM have a personal character? to have some sort of connection to the group/ to keep from wanting to TPW. or something here. not sure its late.

No. It can be done well, but most likely won't work.

If your party is weak, perhaps just 2 players in it, then it's better to strengthen them with lower level hirelings and what-not that comes and goes a bit more. That lessens the risk for your DMPC to become a personal pet, stealing spotlight.

zainale wrote:
5.) should i plan some random encounters?

If you like them.

It's not very fun to have a DM go you see *roll roll* four earth elementals. Roll initiative. But a good DM with smartly designed encounter tables can make something better than that.

If you have a forest home to a bunch of bandits, make an encounter table with various ways of encountering bandits - when they eat lunch, as they are attacking travellers, carrying back loot etc. And mix up the composition of bandits, are there lieutenants among them, unexpected allies etc. Finally throw in a few other things that can be encountered in said forest. It's a very much more controlled form of random, but it's still random. And that can add a bit of depth in you game world and be fun for you as a DM when you work to adapt a result on the spot.

zainale wrote:
6.) how do you get "it" across to your player that they should not do X? like this is a talk encounter and not a fight encounter. whats the max CR i should be throwing at a party of 3-4 lvl one PCs?

Max CR against lvl 1 PCs would be like CR 2, perhaps. But lvl 1 is disproportionally weak. A single, bit enemy easily kills a first level PC with one blow. It can be very random. That can be fun, killing several PCs in the first (few) session(s) and have the survivors form a more lasting party. But not everyone likes that. Ask your players. If they want to have a decent chance of surviving, settle for CR 1/2 or something like that.

Part of the greatest things about pen-and-paper RPGs are that players do unexpected things. It really can be great to have what you thought would be a talk encounter turn into combat, but I understand what you mean. Until you've become more confident as a DM, with the game and your players, don't expect players to pick up on subtle hints. If something looks like a combat encounter, but the enemy can actually be talked to, your players will miss that and charge into the fray.

Talk to your players about this. If you wont balance every encounter to match their party, they must know.


1) Look at the Adventure Path player guides that Paizo has put out - you'll get an idea of what information to include and not include. Giving broad strokes of what players will be facing is usually helpful, especially if a majority of the campaign will negate a particular tactic, such as if immunity to a particular energy type or immunity to sneak attacks will be commonplace. That way, players know not to specialize in something that will prove useless.

2) If you want them to be part of the world-building, feel free - I've heard of many GMs that do it this way. It also helps to take some pressure off of you. Be warned, though, that if your players tend to be by-the-book, they may not give you as much input as you'd like.

3) By encouraging them to build a group that covers a wide variety of roles in general - that way, whatever comes up, they should have at least something they can do.

4) Conventional wisdom is against GM PCs - if you aren't very careful, they can take the spotlight away from your players, which is where it should rightfully be. You also have to be careful that you don't use your more intensive knowledge of events to give your character an unfair advantage. It also provides yet another thing you have to keep track of, and as GM, you usually have plenty to occupy your attention without it. That said, my group commonly uses GM PCs, especially if there is a glaring hole in group composition that needs an extra character to fill it.

5) Yes. They make things seem more real. I would take into account different environments/times of day/etc. when you plan them, as well.

6) This puts it better than I ever could, and it's Paizo's own take on the matter.


Also, expanding on point 4, I would advise you to remember that your goal should not be to TPK your players. Your goal should be to represent the world to them - it is not a contest.

Sometimes fate is a cruel mistress, and things don't go the characters' way. Sometimes characters make foolish decisions and pay the price for them. So TPK is a very real possibility; if you play with kid gloves and refuse to let death be a possibility, things get less fun.

But you should not be trying to kill characters - their opponents should be. It's a subtle distinction, but a very, very important one. The point of Pathfinder is not to win; it's to tell a story, one where the GM basically acts as director.

If you remember nothing else, remember this: you're all in this together. An adversarial relationship with players will sap your will to GM faster than anything else, because the system is designed for players to defeat their opponents a majority of the time. If you think of encounters as contests, you will lose, and it will burn you out.

But if you think of it as cooperative storytelling, and if you encourage the same mindset in your players, then win, lose, or draw, you've succeeded, and everyone comes out better for it in the end.


i was thinking of having the party encounter a bridge troll and trolls are a cr 5 creature any way of weakening that troll a bit so my players can have a bridge troll encounter?


the pay me all your gold to cross my bridge sorta thing


A Moss Troll is only CR 3.
(Found on Monsters by CR)

Still extremely dangerous to a level 1 group. They might be better just paying it off.


okay that link was very helpful rennaivx thank you


Our group has until recently been four people. So one of us is the GM. Now most times the GM plays a utility character usually Rogue healer type so the party can play what they want. That character rounds out the party lets the GM play a bit and if need be moves and adventure along if PCs are stuck. Another idea is as a GM make a character or two the same or even a level higher then the party and have PCs play them with you taking control of them in situations when need be. A player who is GM now is doing this. She isn't running a PC making our party normally three people. She has two characters she created joining us for a set of missions with us controlling them in most situations with her taking control of them for when she needs to. They are not our characters being her creation and we treat them this way but our party is now slightly tougher then before.
Encounters don't always have to end or even be about combat. Determining XP for it is tricky sometimes. A trap or monster is easy enough but role playing situations is harder but often more enjoyable. Friend of mine is GMing Pathfinder for the first time and has had a time about how to proceed in certain situations but has done a good job and has impressed me with his story arc.
As a GM of some experience I hope you have a group that are friends and more importantly like you. I was a GM once in 1st ed D&D ages ago running a module. Two guys I thought were my friends were so brutal I never considered being a GM until I was older wiser and a vastly different game system. If they are you shouldn't have problems. Running a module there will be issues since most modules will have flaws that make everyone go Huh? Your own campaign start small and be ready for the questions and the occasional smart ass that wants to do things his way not what you planned. My advice is let them having a plan B if you will. Even nice players tend to do this from time to time. If there is an issue discuss it. Inform players if there is something that needs to be done a certain way ahead of time if you can so they don't get too upset. Sometimes telling them it's for the story they will accept it and move along.
You might get frustrated that happens. I hope this doesn't scare you because most people say not no but Hell No to being a GM. But it can be fun and enjoyable.
Regarding the troll one of the bestiaries has a water Troll that is lower in power maybe use that.


There's always the option of using templates to weaken an ordinary troll, too. (Young springs to mind.)


zainale wrote:
Q1 to 6

Q 1, 2, 3:

I look at S:0 as an opportunity to have fun rolling up the PCs together, laugh about the poor stats, cheer the nat-18s, and enjoy a little out of character “gaming”. It’s also a great time for you to give some basic info about the campaign. For example, based out of a large city or a small village? Land only, or lots of water borne travel? Are you going to use weather, enforce encumbrance and/or tracking of ammo and consumables? Near the sea/mountains/desert? If anyone is playing a Ranger, it’s worth giving them some idea of the theme as well so they can have a use for their favored enemy and terrain. Provide some basic info about what is going on in the region. IE: The army is away fighting on borders, thus bandits, goblins, and such have started becoming more troublesome on the roads. There are dwarven, elven, and X cities/societies within easy travel so those races make sense.

With that basic background, S:0 lets the group discuss a couple back-story points and how they know each other. One interesting way to do it is work around the circle. Player 1 gets to pick “how” they know player 2, player 2 picks how they know 3, etc. Then working back the other way, each player gets to pick a “secret, twist, or fault” of the next player. So player 3 pins a secret/twist/fault on player 2, and so forth. As a GM, you now have several nuggets of info that you can weave into the game over time to make it more immersive.

Beyond that I wouldn’t divulge too much about the campaign, I GM and play, and the fun for me in playing is –not- knowing what’s going on.

Q4: I never run a “GMPC” in the party. It’s impossible to separate GM knowledge/GMPC knowledge, and it takes away from your ability to run memorable NPCs and create a more immersive environment. If you have a cool character idea save it for when you play vs GM. Put that creative effort into NPCs the group will encounter, and RPing the monsters even during combat.

However, if required I have a hired (for a split of the loot) NPC in the group to round out their skill set. Most often either a cleric or fighter. I avoid them doing anything other than mechanics, and I’ve often let the PCs take turns running that NPC during fight scenes, which free’s me up to try to be more animated with the monsters during the encounter.

As you tell this collaborative story with your group, you –will- be connected and a TPK will be just as hard on you because the story is over and you have all these loose ends or major plot arcs that you all wanted to learn how they ended.

Q5: I use random encounters, but not just tossing something at them with no reason on a spur of the moment. I roll them up out of session, then think about if its just going to be a minor combat that fits w/in the major story arc (like bandit encounter when the region is known to have a problem); or if the monster that came up on the random table doesn’t fit that, I consider how I can use it for a mini-arc…almost like a one-shot/side-trek. It helps me come up with ideas that I never would have if I just stuck to my planned story-arcs. I may end up just tossing it, but more often than not it’s a great chance for me to “learn more about my world” plus use monsters I would have probably not have used. For another post I did the ones below to demonstrate even high level campaigns could use randoms.

Random Examples:
CR10: Contract Devil. I looked over the special abilities and its "Infernal Contract" made me think of a merchant totally down on his luck and ready to lose his store, a non-pious man, but who decides it couldn't hurt to cry out to "anyone listening" for help. Its a shop owner the group is familiar with at this point in the game, and he's got a major gambling problem and owes way more than he can come up with. The group approaches the shop next time they're in town and surprisingly find the door locked in middle of the day, but they see/hear a flash from inside and smell brimstone. (maybe its as he arrives, maybe its as he leaves - your call). Bigger issue - the gambling ring, who's running it, what else is it connected too? Or it can just end with a brawl in his shop and the store owner being killed during the fight. Or maybe it leaves with him and the group gets their first "planar adventure" going after the shop owner on a rescue mission.

CR14: Worm that Walks. The essence of an evil spellcaster is infused into the worms that consume it after being buried and it comes to life as a living swarm of worms. Interesting. So....the party encounters a gnome driving a wagon that broke down. They stop to assist and notice the wagon is full of dirt..not unusual, but the gnome is -very- nervous almost trying to run them off. Any detect evil will radiate very strong from the wagon (and the gnome). The Worm that Walks is in the dirt being transported from his grave to their newly established base of operations by his gnome assistant. I personally would avoid this going to combat if possible - make it RPing encounter even if its obvious this gnome is probably up to no good, the party has no reason to just attack him. This would become an easter egg for later in the campaign around this evil revived. Maybe the group runs into the gnome a few times and thinks he's actually the antagonist before they end up confronting the Worm that Walks. Or if you don't want the long-con, the gnome gets to jittery based on the party's questions and he and his master attack right there in the road/city street/town square/etc.

CR19: Shoggoth. Nasty critter eons old and Huge. This one could be easy - its awoke during a recent large storm at sea and has come ashore to feed "leaving madness and destruction in its slime-caked wakes." Or...the PCs are giving a gift to the ruler, they order something really unique and special, but somewhere the boxes get switched instigated by an old and powerful nemesis returning to get revenge by hoping to kill them, the King or at least get them banished for being fools. This thing was shrunk, placed in a magical box keeping it contained, and when the king opens the PCs gift - insanity ensues as its released. So much run from that you could culminate their careers at 20th when you're done with the story arc

Q6: For new GMs one of the hardest things to do is allow the plot to develop based on PC actions. (I’m playing in my son’s first GM’d campaign and helping coach him through this right now). You put a lot of time and effort into designing the session, and if the PCs go down a random rabbit hole, or decide to do the opposite of what you thought it can be hard to let that develop. The reality is they’re trying to tell this story too, and it’ll be most fun over time when you can incorporate their free will. My advice is when they go in opposite direction and you’re not ready, just put everyone on a 10 or 20min break while you “get ready”. Quickly think about the cause/effect of what they’re proposing, rollup the appropriate encounter stats, prep an NPC, etc. This is where having confidence in “re-skinning” something you already have ready can be handy. Maybe the encounter you had planned was monster x, and now they’ve done something where they’re probably going to fight monster Y. If possible…just use the encounter you already (IE: bandits stat-blocks), but describe them as orcs, or skeletons, etc.

In addition, if they knew something was going on and ignored it to go down the rabbit-hole, then you can consider what happened on your planned plot-arc while they were off on their self-chosen side-trek. IE: The bandits burned a town down because the group didn’t followup on the info about their hide-out. Don’t do this to discourage their free-will, use it to show the depth of the campaign. In fact, you can set it up so the PCs actually have a couple options, and you know they will only pick one, and mean-while things happen because they couldn’t physically be at the other locations. Their actions and inactions had consequences in the bigger game world.

Regarding CR – the CRB has good guidelines to start with. Keep in mind some special abilities such as paralyze (wights), or some monsters with relatively big damage for CR (ogres) can be significantly harder if the dice come up against the PCs. (failed saves, or crits on the group). If you stick to APL +1 or 2, you should be safe. So 3-4 APL1 = CR 1 to 3. Also avoid 1 monster fights, use 2 or more without diluting it down to 10 CR 1/8s.


zainale wrote:
the pay me all your gold to cross my bridge sorta thing

Sounds like you're thinking a role-playing encounter, not something you really want them to fight. In that case, don't water it down. "if" the group decides that a kinetic solution is best, the troll can just take the hits (he regens after all), then claw-bite a PC into (-)HP (maybe using non-lethal) in 1 shot, and then proceed to ask them if they -really- all want to die just to avoid paying him to keep this bridge safe.

"you do realize, I'm the only reason the goblins haven't burned this bridge down right? Isn't my work here protecting this worth something?"

This could be a really good teaching opportunity early on for the group, to demonstrate that if you don't tell them to roll initiative or don't open combat with surprise from enemy, that they always have RPing options to solve the problem in front of them. And also...to not be too quick on the sword just because what is in front of them is from the Bestiary. IMO those things add contemplative depth to the game.


good idea GM 1990, thank you.


zainale wrote:
i was thinking of having the party encounter a bridge troll and trolls are a cr 5 creature any way of weakening that troll a bit so my players can have a bridge troll encounter?

Use an Ogre instead of a troll. But even a CR 3 enemy is a sever threat to level 1 characters. I mean, a lvl 1 fighter has what, 15 hit points. An ogre does 2d8+7 with its club. Using Drunk or [url="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1"[/url] ogre dials down the threat level and gives you a chance to familiarise yourself with templates.

The type of encounter you thing of is tricky. GM 1990 offers some nice advice, but I'd thread cautiously anyway. As I mention previously, if it looks like a combat encounter, your players are going to treat it as such.

The troll choosing to use non-lethal attacks would work to save the party from getting wiped out, but your players might feel like they are being heavily railroaded in the worst sense, lead into a fight they can't win. And they definitely won't like giving away any of their stuff.

The "monsters are more than just things to be killed" trope is, however, a very good one. I'd consider this: Actually use a CR 5 troll. Have the party be on a quest to somewhere beyond the bridge. Give hints that the bridge is guarded by a troll. When they reach it, really stress to your players that their characters probably doubt they can handle the troll in combat. Play it loose, going along with anything un-combat related your players come up with and reward them for even an ounce of creativity. Play the troll as surprised, she's used to squishy things coming from the other direction. You should tell your players that the troll seems confused, rather than bloodthirsty. Should the players hesitate to try any ideas or fail at those they do try, have them run into a villager as they regroup or look for alternative routes. This villager tells the party about GM1990s idea, that the troll is at least somewhat beneficial to the county since it's protecting them from goblins. The villager can also mention that while the troll is interested in "treasure", it actually means food. You can then let the player buy (or steal) a bribe for the troll, or have them hunt it - maybe running a combat encounter against a Young Boar.

Oh, and zainale, keep the questions flowing.


Concur with Blymurkla - if its a newer group you'd probably benefit from at least telegraphing that the troll is a "necessary evil" by a rumor or two in town rather than having them going in blind. Players don't like giving up gold - for sure. he offers some great ideas that the party could rp to make him happy rather than just gold. Shoot...it could be something weird and send them off on a little side quest, Troll with an eccentric appetite. Who knows...the troll could end up being a semi-recurring NPC in your campaign, a guy they go to for the latest gossip. even when his self-control slips and he runs off with several of the local villages sheep, he feels a little bad about it. After all...he probably realizes he and the locals have a bit of a symbiotic relationship.

I like putting these kind of grey area/enemy of our enemy "can" be our friend scenarios in the games. Moral dilemas or thought provoking encounters are a unique facet of RPGs that other games just don't have.

I also concur about -careful with ogres-. CR3...but they pack a -very- hard punch. They have 30hps, 10' reach, +7 to hit, and 2d8+7 is avg of 16 damage per hit - which means they one shot any first level character on avg, or against avg 1 apl ACs, they'll account for 8 damage on avg attack and damage rolls every round. When you start adding up a 1APLs hps...8 per round isn't much :-).
I've used them as the boss vs 1st level, but almost always results in putting 1 PC in the dying state. Its typically like this. first round - ogre misses, group maybe hits for 10-12 damage. round 2 ogre misses, party hits again and he's looking pretty beat up and the group is like "haha... ogres, what a joke", then ogre 1 shots the fighter to -5hps, the wizard says "that would have killed me dead, and everyone yells hit it now before it gets another attack! and fighters player says, "I play dead even after the cleric heals me. I can afford to take 20 damage when I'm at 1 hp" Good times. "Oh...just a bunny eh? Look at the bones man!"


well i was thinking about having the group run into a wagon on the side of the road everyone is fine but something has happened to or lamed cart animal/s. i was going to give the PCs the option to help the cart people help by allowing them to offer the use of their mounts to pull the cart or not and they go on their way with their mounts they could chose to sell or loan their mounts to the cart and go on their way or stay with them and then eventually cross the bridge. or they can go on their way get pass the troll on their own and then late on because they did not help the cart encounter in any way. they hear or find the cart empty and the people dead. this is after they complete the main objective.

when a ritual is interrupted it fails? or can i as dm use creativity to have the ritual to complete but be unfinished? i was going to have the party come across a party of goblins killing another wounded party and interrupting a reincarnation ritual which would allow me to present the party with a npc/companion/cohort that would cover the parties deficiency. that is if the party doesn't kill the npc.

i also wanted to have the party pass through a one way time trapped hallway showing the scene of battle. i just need a way for the party to get back through the time trapped hallway.


zainale wrote:
well i was thinking about having the group run into a wagon on the side of the road everyone is fine but something has happened to or lamed cart animal/s. i was going to give the PCs the option to help the cart people help by allowing them to offer the use of their mounts to pull the cart or not and they go on their way with their mounts they could chose to sell or loan their mounts to the cart and go on their way or stay with them and then eventually cross the bridge. or they can go on their way get pass the troll on their own and then late on because they did not help the cart encounter in any way. they hear or find the cart empty and the people dead. this is after they complete the main objective.

Sounds reasonable. Actions have consequences, and the cart-people ending up in trouble when they didn't receive any help makes for a living world. Though make sure you play this right. The cart-people should be very adamant about their need to cross the bridge, point out the lack of alternatives etc. You really want your players to think »we should have that coming« rather than something like »what? Why did those stupid cart-people die at the hands of the troll? We saw that one easily, couldn't they see that it was dangerous and just take another route? (aargh, it feels like the GM is pulling a cheap stun to drag our characters in the dirt.)«

zainale wrote:
when a ritual is interrupted it fails? or can i as dm use creativity to have the ritual to complete but be unfinished? i was going to have the party come across a party of goblins killing another wounded party and interrupting a reincarnation ritual which would allow me to present the party with a npc/companion/cohort that would cover the parties deficiency. that is if the party doesn't kill the npc.

I'm not sure how to handle this. The game rules isn't my forté. What do you mean with ritual? Resurrection is a spell that takes 1 minute to cast. If it is interrupted the rules tells us it would just fail, though you are free as a GM to change this. Though I wouldn't. However, if you give goblins encountered early in the game access to a level 7 spell then you're in a heap of trouble.

Sure, you could have a more abstract revival ritual taking place. Magic is more than spells. And that could go any way you like, when it's interrupted and when it's not. Still you're setting a dangerous precedence. If some lowlife goblins have access to religious (or arcane) rituals powerful enough to bring back the dead, who too has it? Should the players even expect that they can be killed, given that such magic is all around?

But I must ask, why are you so sure you have deficiencies in the party to compensate for? I though you said you had 3 or 4 PCs in the party, and that usually equates to 3 or 4 players. Do you really expect your players to screw up their characters so completely that they need pampering? Perhaps you should try and help them create more competent characters. That'll improve their fun and take a work of you. Win-win.

And if you really think your party is weak, there are other ways to compensate than using what you're suggesting. Because you're suggesting a GMPC with an awesome back-story, most likely stealing your players spotlight in just about any campaign around any gaming table. Dial down they challenges they'll face instead, give them access to allies helping before and after combat - not during.

zainale wrote:
i also wanted to have the party pass through a one way time trapped hallway showing the scene of battle. i just need a way for the party to get back through the time trapped hallway.

Didn't you have a separate thread for this?

All I can say is - keep it simple. It might be a good idea, I too like playing around with time and other strange dimensions, but I wouldn't use it in a first session. Especially if you and/or your players are fairly inexperienced.

When you're new to a campaign, and to a complex game such as Pathfinder, both players and DM have a lot to familiarise them self with. You won't be able to handle complex plot lines, too strange a phenomenons and what-not when you're still learing the rules, finding your character and getting comfortable with what's perhaps rather new people around you. Further more, the first session should highlight the essence of the campaign. Is that really time-travelling oddities? If so, well perhaps you should ignore the previous advice. Otherwise, keep the time-stop idea for a one-time adventure later on and go for a simpler story the first session. Hear about bad guy, encounter troubles when journeying towards bad guy, fight bad guy.


yes, yes i did have a separate thread for this. but you asked for the questions to keep on coming. and to get perhaps a different view on the question would get different results. or different approaches.

if anything i am the new one to pathfinder and they are the veterans. i am going to leave out the reasons why i am doing this, i don't want the tread to change to that of me b&+~@/whining about my group.

that time trap hall is a way to hint to what will happen later on in the game. something like "ohh shit that was what was happening back there." when they are back at the town and stuff starts to pop off.


zainale wrote:
yes, yes i did have a separate thread for this. but you asked for the questions to keep on coming. and to get perhaps a different view on the question would get different results. or different approaches.

Fair enough.

zainale wrote:
if anything i am the new one to pathfinder and they are the veterans. i am going to leave out the reasons why i am doing this, i don't want the tread to change to that of me b~$&~/whining about my group.

Okay. Then I'll stop suggesting (I mean arguing) on the subject.

Though player management is a vital part of being a DM and you should feel free to ask for tips.

zainale wrote:
that time trap hall is a way to hint to what will happen later on in the game. something like "ohh s$#@ that was what was happening back there." when they are back at the town and stuff starts to pop off.

Then go for it =)

Perhaps you should avoid dwelling on it. Have the players enter this strange room (?), give vague and incomplete answers to their investigations and then move on. Maybe that's already what you intended. That could be a nice seed for further adventures without slowing down the action in the current adventure. For that's a real concern, I've had sessions bog down when players focus all energy on what was supposed to be only foreshadowing. It's tricky since if you try to be subtle, your players will miss every hint you drop ...


suggestions are welcomed. anything that promotes creativity is welcome.

i was thinking of making the time trap passable but also a way to end it since it is suppose to be a trap. if they get trapped then that would open up a new sorta campaign. imagine you start the campaign main plot and you pass though the gates of a super massive wall that blocks off the opening to a enclosed valley in the valley there is a fair to not stinking rich village there they have a few small problems you can sort out before going on to the main reason your their your guild has sent you and you party to delve into and retrieve a magic item (i am thinking dwarves because they are always digging into things they aught not) anyways they dug into something and it released something on them and in an attempt to slow the spread they cast a spell to slow time down on a choke point that only effects things going in one direction you can go in but if unprepared coming out can get you trapped. that's the idea for the hallway. and after you have finished the mission or right as you are heading in to the mission a part of that mission has gotten out and is slowly starting to effect the small town. the massive wall gate was created to keep what ever gets out from escaping the valley. in short a contained horror scenario. though i am not great with dialog.

would it be alright to tell my players that any magic item in the books does not exist in the world if they want something magic they have to make it their own. like peter wants a cape of resistance he opens the book and goes "this i want this." i go "sure but how are you going to make it your?" trying to get peter to use a tiny bit of creativity well since capes are out how about a jacket or scarf or pauldron of resistance. or Lens of Detection become glasses or goggles of detection.


zainale wrote:
i was thinking of making the time trap passable but also a way to end it since it is suppose to be a trap. if they get trapped then that would open up a new sorta campaign. imagine you start the campaign main plot and you pass though the gates of a super massive wall that blocks off the opening to a enclosed valley in the valley there is a fair to not stinking rich village there they have a few small problems you can sort out before going on to the main reason your their your guild has sent you and you party to delve into and retrieve a magic item (i am thinking dwarves because they are always digging into things they aught not) anyways they dug into something and it released something on them and in an attempt to slow the spread they cast a spell to slow time down on a choke point that only effects things going in one direction you can go in but if unprepared coming out can get you trapped. that's the idea for the hallway. and after you have finished the mission or right as you are heading in to the mission a part of that mission has gotten out and is slowly starting to effect the small town. the massive wall gate was created to keep what ever gets out from escaping the valley. in short a contained horror scenario. though i am not great with dialog.

The party risk entrappment in a valley because of timewarping things released by dwarf, and the campaign will now shift its focus to this valley? Or are you thinking of this as "only" an adventure, spread out over a couple of sessions?

Because of as a campaign it might be problematic to shift focus from what the players heard at the start of the campaign. They might have created lots of background on the assumption that their characters would work closely with that guild and it's not nice to see that thrown out the window. So warn your players: »you start as problem solvers for a guild, but I intend to soon have you at far flung places far away from allies and loved ones«. It doesn’t give away too much of your plot but lets your players get the right mindset.

As a self-contained adventure, sure, it's a great idea. Pathfinder wouldn't be my go-to game for horror, but it's not impossible to make it work. If you struggle with dialogue, here's a few tips:

Running a horror scenario, an investigation or perhaps a political intrigue is all about clues and information. Your prep notes should include, for every important NPC, what they know. Not how they say it or anything, but you must be able to come up with the correct answer if your players ask the dwarf baroness »was it you who instructed Zazel to build the sun dial?«

Don't overdo accents, voices or that things if you're not really good. I'm pretty bad at that, so I take it easy and only do the easiest things with my voice. To mimic a Scottish accent for a dwarf is hard, but using a slightly darker or softer voice is not impossible. It's also fairly easy to vary how fast you're talking. And every NPC doesn’t need a specific voice or vocabulary. There are other ways to get them interesting and unique.

Talk about your NPCs and their dialouge, rather than saying anything. Describe how they say things, what they look like saying it. Say your players asked an NPC a question. Pause, then say »she broods over the question and when she opens her mouth, her voice has a higher pitch than before and trembles slightly«. Then you start talking as the NPC answering the question. That's much easier to do than actually talking in a high pitch, trembling voice. And it probably gets the point - that the PCs touched a sore spot, perhaps something worth following up - across better. Because if you've just tried to change your voice, you both must succeed and your players must actually hear it for the same effect.

I don't write dialogue. I don't understand how you would, and I don't really know if anyone actually tries. But sometimes a write down a phrase, often a greeting, or a few words that an NPC uses frequently. I've written down riddles for those who use them too. That's usually enough to get some feel for the NPC across.

zainale wrote:
would it be alright to tell my players that any magic item in the books does not exist in the world if they want something magic they have to make it their own. like peter wants a cape of resistance he opens the book and goes "this i want this." i go "sure but how are you going to make it your?" trying to get peter to use a tiny bit of creativity well since capes are out how about a jacket or scarf or pauldron of resistance. or Lens of Detection become glasses or goggles of detection.

Thread carefully.

First, the game assumes that the PCs have access to a wide variety of magic items. If they aren't properly equipped, the party's screwed. And it screws characters differently, with martials (fighters and the like) suffering the most from a lack of "correct" items - and martials are underpowered as it is. Though just re-skinning items won't be a balance problem.

Secondly, why are capes out? I mean, if Peters PC has an appropriate craft skill, can't he just make a cape to make into a cape of resistance. I'd instead try and ask »so, what does your cape look like? Or is it even a cape?.

And I'd lead by example. Let the party find a scarf or pauldron of resistance. Have the magic shop owner ask how they want their braces of armor. Describe every item, or almost every item, they find. Potions can be contained in small pots or metal containers, and the liquid itself can have a distinct look, smell or taste. Scrolls can be written on book pages or stone tablets.

That will show your players that descriptions aren't set in stone, and perhaps soon you'll have players making emblems on their armor or searching out specific magic boots. Or you won't, because your players aren't those people. Okey, let them be and have your fun describing the looks of magic rings anyway but don't try to force anyone else to partake. If it isn't their fun, it isn't.


mostly for my group it is like "if its not in the book it can not exist and if it does exist in the book it is only as described in the book." for someone like myself who wants his stuff he creates to be neat or what not having everything already set in stone is ....... frustrating. my alchemist had a homunculus and because the homunculus in the book had wings i had to have a homunculus that had wings. it did not fit my original idea for the creature.


zainale wrote:
mostly for my group it is like "if its not in the book it can not exist and if it does exist in the book it is only as described in the book." for someone like myself who wants his stuff he creates to be neat or what not having everything already set in stone is ....... frustrating. my alchemist had a homunculus and because the homunculus in the book had wings i had to have a homunculus that had wings. it did not fit my original idea for the creature.

Hm. This is a tricky situation.

About the homunculus, you're basically limiting your own character by removing an ability from the homunculus. As I GM, I'd probably allow that. But I can still see your fellow players point. Rules are rules, and in a game like Pathfinder I would advise against going around and poking those rules too much. By limiting your character (I'm far from an expert, but isn't a flying homunculus much more versatile and useful than one without wings?) you're actually hurting the entire party. Should they have to put up with your suboptimal alchemist, always picking up her slack? Yeah, I'm over-exaggerating, but there's some truth in it.

As for the »a cloak of resistance must be a cloak« sentiment, that's obviously bullshit. And even "the book" supports it.

PRD wrote:

Cosmetic Variation: Who says every rod of rulership, cape of the mountebank, or flying carpet has to look exactly the same? Where's the fun in that? Sure, the item works the same as the other ones, but making a small variation, even if just a minor or superficial change, opens a tremendous host of possibilities for making treasure more wondrous.

Artisans take pride in their work, so infuse items with some of their creators' personalities! For example, a quirky, insect-loving mage may have created a feather token whose “bird” looks like a fly, mosquito, or pesky flying termite— there's no reason it has to specifically look like a bird.

So you should feel free to make a cloak of resistance look exactly like you want (as long as you don't change its function, which includes it being a shoulder item. You shouldn't have your games include boots of resistance). And you should talk to your fellow players, in a sensitive manner, that the game gets more fun (at least for you) if you all allow for some creative variety. It won't even matter for game balance, which I presume is what your players consider the fun with the game.

Also, there's stuff like talismanic components which can add a bit more flavour to your items.


can you have your player roll randomly for nothing important? like rolling perception? just to up that what ever mood.


If you want.
GM: "You're at the front? In that case, make a Perception check."
Player: "29."
GM: "You don't notice anything."

It might have some undesired consequences, though.
Player: "I leave the dungeon. If I can't find the traps on a 29, it's clearly too dangerous for me."


If you are doing a module or better yet an adventure path most of the questions will be answered for you. In a home grown campaign that is different. One idea which works is called The Point of Light. It's from 4th Ed but works for Pathfinder. Here's how it works you start small a town or city, someplace all the PCs are from. You detail out as much as you think you and the players need to know. Town has a mayor, detail him, a sheriff ditto. Any churches if so which ones and who the high priest is. Town store if you really have one. You don't have to do the entire town or city but you should have the major points done. Now depending on your adventure you don't really need to know anything beyond the town's limits but some vague idea wouldn't hurt. Now for the first couple of adventures the PCs don't even need to leave the area at all. That helps you as a GM. As they get more powerful you can start expanding your world. You want them to visit another town for an adventure. You do the same to this town detailing it as much as needed. The in-between you really don't need detailed just enough for encounters and basics. The area in between is a blasted landscape a reason why is enough. Then in another adventure they visit their first major city. Same idea just a little more work. The system was named the way it was because they said it's like looking at a black background. Each town or major site became a light on it, hence points of light.
In the same way with the town if you have house rules or requests or restrictions you need to tell players even before they consider characters. Know what you are generally planning to play at least for a few levels so players don't feel screwed if you change gears somewhat. For instance you plan to play in the far north then two levels later they are pirates. It's one thing if the campaign changes especially with Players being players but just to change without any reason annoys most players.
As far as question six. That is a common problem with most groups. Some will gladly talk to monsters over combat others want nothing more then to kill things. If you want role playing tell them ahead of time. Most players will be reasonable about this and understand sometimes it's better to talk then swing a big weapon. Sometimes even after you old them this you might get players who are going to do what they want. Give them a warning if it really screws with the adventure and campaign. If they insist punish the character and party if need be. Start minor like they don't receive permission to enter a dungeon. They get caught they get arrested and party treasure is deducted. Later at higher levels if they keep this up it will start to hurt. Leadership feat becomes worthless because in your kingdom no one wants to be any where near those guys. Usually this gets the message across. Sometimes it doesn't. In this case see if it's just the player being a jerk. Most players might do something dumb but that is different then a player going I'm screwing the campaign up because I want to. Players like that shouldn't be with a group until they grow up.
A bit of advice players will do things you possibly couldn't expect. This is a surprisingly common problem. Don't force them to do what you want if it can be avoided. Example PCs figure out they don't need to do steps two through seven to face the bad guy. Plan for it. So they find the bad guy early work with that. Bad guy if too powerful may simply leave finding the PCs not worth his time letting minions deal with them. Maybe in step three they discover they need a special item to kill the bad guy. Either they don't get this and the bad guy gloats and still leaves or you make it so they can learn it another way.
As a GM have had this happen a lot! Random encounters are nice and don't hurt. I when I plan my adventures have six to seven combat encounters planned out. Most times when the party is going from point A to Point B. Planning it this way means you have encounters ready to go and don't have to lock in where the fight occurs. Gang of thieves in town become bandits on stretch of road. As a general rule of thumb I make out about ten combat encounters. That depending on the toughness of the encounters takes up most of the game with role playing filling in or taking over that time.
Please don't get frustrated or discouraged being a GM is fun depending on your group.

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