Convert Enemy into Ally


Advice


I am currently in a high level Rappan Athuk Campaign. We are currently going against a higher level version of the clerics in the lower temple ( -- something like level 17 clerics). One of the Cleric of Orcus' allies is the Phase Minotaur king.

This guy is a gem of a hit and run ambusher. What I'd like to do is essentially convert this guy from a thorn in my backside into an ally that I can then turn on the Clerics of Orcus.

I'd like to do a permanent conversion if possible. Does anyone know of any way to remove this creature's loyalties and make him my thrall?

Some 3pp stuff (like Psionics) is available to be used -- and I know about Unwilling Participant and the Commander archetype from Ultimate psionics. I'd like to have alternate solutions if possible.


What's wrong with a good old fashioned domination or even a magic jar?

Or, just do it through roleplaying. Make him an offer he can't refuse. If he won't sit still for a conversation, use a Hold Monster or any other kind of magic to keep him in one place while you get his attention. Offer him a big magic item, or a pile of loot, or build him a labyrinth on a beautiful Mediterranean island somewhere, or whatever it takes to enlist his aid. Come on, it's freaking Rappan Athuk, you're probably about 10x over the standard Pathfinder normal WBL, surely you can afford a bribe he can't refuse?


Domination is good but the duration is a bit limited and control can be prevented. It has it's drawbacks.

Magic Jar would take the PC out of the mix if it came to conflict...also dangerous due to range restrictions.

Possession would be better, but I'm not sure that the possessor can use the special abilities of the creature being possessed.

Roleplaying and bribery is odd in this campaign. The DM is running the Orcus priests as having greater ambitions than to just sit in Rappan Athuk as static monsters. They are doing a "hearts and minds campaign" and actually performing "rescues and otherwise good acts" to bring the surface populace under their influence.

So, getting the King to turn turncoat is unlikely.


Subtle manipulation. For example, you can use hypnosis to implant an idea (common enemy for example), which makes him little more happy to help as long it is around the idea.


Helm of Opposite Alignment might come in handy if, depending on the alignments involved.


Geas can work well for this sort of thing.


JustABill wrote:

Helm of Opposite Alignment might come in handy if, depending on the alignments involved.

It still doesn't mean that he wants to hang with you, just because you have same alignment.

Scarab Sages

There are rules for redeeming/converting/corrupting enemies available in this book. It takes some time but offers interesting roleplay opportunities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Monk of the Lotus, using Touch of Surrender or Touch of Peace. Both are no-save Charm Monsters. It's not permanent, but you have the guy for about two weeks unless someone in your party messes up...


Quintain wrote:

I am currently in a high level Rappan Athuk Campaign. We are currently going against a higher level version of the clerics in the lower temple ( -- something like level 17 clerics). One of the Cleric of Orcus' allies is the Phase Minotaur king.

This guy is a gem of a hit and run ambusher. What I'd like to do is essentially convert this guy from a thorn in my backside into an ally that I can then turn on the Clerics of Orcus.

I'd like to do a permanent conversion if possible. Does anyone know of any way to remove this creature's loyalties and make him my thrall?

Some 3pp stuff (like Psionics) is available to be used -- and I know about Unwilling Participant and the Commander archetype from Ultimate psionics. I'd like to have alternate solutions if possible.

Hmm. Charm changes attitudes in a positive direction with the caster as the subject. Is there a spell that changes attitudes in a negative direction toward a different subject?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Suggestion can implant the idea that he should turn against his current allies.
Sow Thought is a more subtle way of doing a similar thing.
Envious Urge is a short term way to make your enemies turn against each other by making one of them attempt to take an item from another.


Following up on this question: I've seen references to Hypnotism having a lasting effect post-spellcasting.

Can anyone guive any advice on how to convert a hostile into a friendly using hyptnotism?


Hypnotism is a level 1 spell. It shouldn't do very much. For example, I'm willing to be that the OP's Phase Minotaur King has too many HD to be affected by this spell.

Assuming you're using it on a target of low enough HD, and you can communicate with this target, the spell says you can make one request that smut be "brief" and "reasonable".

Neither of those are game terms, which means they are entirely up to the GM. Since it's a first level spell, THIS GM wouldn't allow those requests to be very game changing. Certainly getting an enemy to behave like an ally for more than the duration of the spell would not be "reasonable" for a level 1 spell, in my opinion.

But making a suggestion like "go home" might be reasonable and probably would remain in effect after the duration, unless he got home during the duration.

It's all up to the GM, but the fact that this is a level ONE spell should play a big role in the GM's decision about what is "brief" and "reasonable".


Quintain wrote:

Following up on this question: I've seen references to Hypnotism having a lasting effect post-spellcasting.

Can anyone guive any advice on how to convert a hostile into a friendly using hyptnotism?

Its not easy for a hostile, but it could be done given enough time and castings.

Hypnotism makes the target 2 steps more friendly toward you and lets you make a single request of the target creature. After the spell ends, the target retains the new attitude in regards to that one request.

The change in attitude is permanent and non-magical, but very limited. My usual bit for it is to cast it on people and make the request be "Trust me", and in subsequent castings tell them I'm casting something beneficial on them, "trust me".

Considering that you'd normally be casting it on someone who is Indifferent to start, their new attitude would be Helfpul, which means trusting you should be pretty reasonable, they're basically a good friend of yours at that point (until the spell ends).

By that point, you can get them to willingly fail their saving throw and you can begin a fairly long but unstoppable road of brainwashing them by expanding on the number of requests you make.

---

But if you want a faster way, by the RAW you can just make a Diplomacy check.

By RAW, the DC for changing attitudes is pretty much static. For a hostile, its 25 + their charisma mod to change their attitude one step more friendly.

Successfully cast Hypnotism to get that instant +2 steps to move them from Hostile to Indifferent, make a Diplomacy check at DC 15+Cha. You move them an additional one step more friendly for every 5 points you beat the DC by.

With a good enough check, you can turn them from Hostile to Helpful in one roll. And if you fail? Well, they're already Hostile, what more are they going to do to you?


Edymnion wrote:

But if you want a faster way, by the RAW you can just make a Diplomacy check.

By RAW, the DC for changing attitudes is pretty much static. For a hostile, its 25 + their charisma mod to change their attitude one step more friendly.

Successfully cast Hypnotism to get that instant +2 steps to move them from Hostile to Indifferent, make a Diplomacy check at DC 15+Cha. You move them an additional one step more friendly for every 5 points you beat the DC by.

With a good enough check, you can turn them from Hostile to Helpful in one roll. And if you fail? Well, they're already Hostile, what more are they going to do to you?

Ok, working the diplomacy check angle, the situation would start hostile but outside of combat, with the target pretty much helpless using various methods.

Given that the minotaur king will likely fall under the "intent to do harm in the immediate future", what effects in place would be needed to reverse or negate this condition in order for diplomacy to have a chance at success?


Don't you have anybody in the group with a good Diplomacy check? You're talking about encounters at or near CR 20 by now. You don't have one PC with a high CHA and ranks in diplomacy?

If you do, just do that - by that level you should have someone who is at least +20 or more on Diplomacy. Slap a buff or two and he could be +25 or more. Take-10 should give you 3 attitude adjustments.

If you're worried about him being immune because he wants to do you harm, lead with a Bluff that "Hey, we're on the same side here, we both want to deal with [whatever] so right now, we're the best allies you've got." Once he falls for that bluff, he'll stop wanting to do you harm int he immediate future, and becomes a valid target for the Diplomacy check.


Charm monster, then a whole bunch of castings of Heightened Sow Thought to create layers of new ideas and impulses. Throw in Modify Memory and re-write the minotaur's personality.


Quintain wrote:

Ok, working the diplomacy check angle, the situation would start hostile but outside of combat, with the target pretty much helpless using various methods.

Given that the minotaur king will likely fall under the "intent to do harm in the immediate future", what effects in place would be needed to reverse or negate this condition in order for diplomacy to have a chance at success?

Hypnotism, Charm, anything that will knock him out of the immediate desire to gut you.

Depending on the GM, just tying him up to where he can't actually attack you if he wanted to might be enough to nullify "Immediate intent to do harm".

Might be able to Bluff him into standing down long enough to talk?

DM_Blake wrote:
Don't you have anybody in the group with a good Diplomacy check? You're talking about encounters at or near CR 20 by now. You don't have one PC with a high CHA and ranks in diplomacy?

Don't forget to have the other PCs Aid Other on the diplomacy attempt. Those +2's can stack up fast.


DM_Blake wrote:

Don't you have anybody in the group with a good Diplomacy check? You're talking about encounters at or near CR 20 by now. You don't have one PC with a high CHA and ranks in diplomacy?

If you do, just do that - by that level you should have someone who is at least +20 or more on Diplomacy. Slap a buff or two and he could be +25 or more. Take-10 should give you 3 attitude adjustments.

If you're worried about him being immune because he wants to do you harm, lead with a Bluff that "Hey, we're on the same side here, we both want to deal with [whatever] so right now, we're the best allies you've got." Once he falls for that bluff, he'll stop wanting to do you harm int he immediate future, and becomes a valid target for the Diplomacy check.

I'm the one with the diplomacy and bluff skills - I play the skill monkey of the group.

The bluff to stop combat is a good idea.

Then starts the diplomacy. Afterwards, we use the Sow Thought.

At least now I have something to go with that will be at least semi-permenant.


Our PCs were up against a couple summoned slaad this last session. Nasty evil outsiders, summoned by some cultists. These cultists were known for being opposed to some Orcus cultists int he area. The fight was going very badly and they decided to retreat, but one slaad grappled our warpriest who really didn't have the kind of rolls to get away.

Our party skill monkey shouted insults about the cultists petty god and then said "Orcus makes love to your god with his big skeletal unit." Well, he didn't say "makes love" and he didn't say "unit", but I'll let your imagination run free.

The situation was so funny that I didn't even really roll a sense motive to oppose the bluff (taunt), I just had the slaad toss the warpriest into a nearby lake and chase our Expeditiously Retreating skill monkey. The other slaad just stood there bewildered, trying to figure out if and why Orcus has a skeletal unit - I literally had him shaking his head and muttering about that for the next 3 rounds which timed very well with the the length of time that the players were laughing about it.

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