They are not spellcasters, but they do have a caster level. Does this mean they can take feats like Craft Wondrous Items and start crafting things?
(And yes, I know they wouldn't meet the spell prerequisites and would also need to invest in skills like Spellcraft.)
I don't think they have a caster level, they have a spell like ability that uses their level as a caster level. But they aren't casters.
I do agree with Chess
I was wondering the same thing because of the Kineticist's Diadem, which requires that the crafter be a 10th-level Kineticist. I realize that not having that is just a +5 bump to the spellcraft DC, but it leads me to believe that there must be a valid way to craft the magic item otherwise (unless it's a multiclassed wizard/kineticist, which is possible but a bit of a reach).
You could take the feat that lets you qualify for crafting feats based on your ranks in spellcraft as your caster level.
If they don't actually have a caster level, they can't take the crafting feats (unless they go with Master Craftsman first).
If they do have a caster level, then they qualify for the feats and can craft items, but will always lack the spell so they have to take the +5 hit to the Spellcraft DC. Since Spellcraft is not a class skill, they can still put ranks in it but will be lower (by at least +3) than typical spellcasters. Since they don't really need INT, they'll likely not have a great Spellcraft score at all.
I realize I just restated the question, but I hope it helps clarify the problem.
As for whether they have a caster level, I don't think they do. The definition of "Caster Level" says "A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell."
That's pretty vague. It doesn't say which classes have caster levels and it even say "for most spellcasting characters" which leaves lots of room to argue about what "most" means and/or which classes might have caster levels but are not included in "most".
But one thing is pretty clear from that definition: it applies to actually casting a spell. It says so. From that I assume that if you're not casting spells, then you don't have a caster level. Which seems intuitive and obvious, but it's not cut and dry - the Kineticist has class features that reference caster level (e.g. Burning Infusion and Unraveling Infusion).
So maybe Kineticists DO have a caster level after all?
I'm still inclined toward no. It seems as if a few abilities let them make caster level checks under specific conditions, but they're still not generally spellcasters, they don't have any spells at all, and therefore probably don't have a general caster level.
But most of this is wild speculation, unless...
They are not spellcasters, but they do have a caster level.
Can you cite a reference for this?
You could take the feat that lets you qualify for crafting feats based on your ranks in spellcraft as your caster level.
Ah yes, I tend to forget about that feat.
Well then, NEVERMIND :D
There is no "pseudo-caster level" mechanic anywhere in the game. You either have a caster level, or you don't. All the crafting feats care about is how high your caster level is.
Any creature with spell-like abilities possesses a caster level. This is understood in the RAW. I do not personally believe a kineticist would have any need of the Master Craftsman feat.
There is no "pseudo-caster level" mechanic anywhere in the game. You either have a caster level, or you don't.
A reasonable assumption but the rules are not clear on this - they do explicitly call out "spell caster".
All the crafting feats care about is how high your caster level is.
Agreed.
Any creature with spell-like abilities possesses a caster level. This is understood in the RAW.
So you're talking about RAI?
This is another weird area for Kineticists. Normally, a SLA will say something like "This SLA works just like the XYZ spell". That makes it crystal clear. But while the Kineticist has his Kinetic Blast (Sp), it never says it works like any spell. In other words, it's not a spell. My guess is that it should be listed as (Su) rather than (Sp) since, IMO, to be Spell-like, it needs to be like a spell. Kinetic Blast is not.
That said, they did officially label it "(Sp)" so maybe that's all you need to successfully argue that kineticists have a caster level even when they have no spells to cast.
I do not personally believe a kineticist would have any need of the Master Craftsman feat.
Your belief is, as yet, unsubstantiated by any rules. Further, you made this thread and the question in your OP proves that you are not certain in your belief - if you were, you wouldn't need to make the post.
Any creature with spell-like abilities possesses a caster level. This is understood in the RAW. I do not personally believe a kineticist would have any need of the Master Craftsman feat.
@DM_Blake As you can see from the FAQ above, SLA actually give an actual caster level, as implicit in the "Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability" part of the question. So, actually Ravindork is half correct and half mistaken.
They killed that bit of SLAs too, huh? Damn.
They have a FAQ that says NO
Sweet, I didn't even realize that was in the FAQ. Solves the OP's question entirely.
I still maintain that I'm not sure the Kineticist really has a caster level at all, based on the fact that his SLAs are actually "Not-A-Spell Abilities". But we don't have a special kind of (Nasa) magic, so (Su) is the closest we have. These abilities should have been (Su) but they're not, they're awkward (Sp) instead. So they're "Spell-Like" but at the same time they're not a spell and not even like a spell. Weird.
As for the SLA implicitly giving a caster level, I disagree there too. Looking up several monsters with SLAs, every one of them has this in their stat block: "Spell-Like Abilities (Caster Level X)". So when the developers gave them the SLA they also gave them the CL. It's not that one implicitly creates the other; they were both granted by the author who created the stat block.
Kineticist has no such entry in its stat block, so it still seems NOT to have a caster level ;)
If that's true, then what this class needs is an extra line that says "Treat Kinetic Blast as if it were a Spell-Like Ability with a caster level equal to the Kineticist's class level". That would have solved all the weirdness in a single sentence.
Without that, it's just weird to be simultaneously "spell-like" and "unlike any spell".
On a related note, if I recall correctly the old-school psionics books suggested that psionics should NOT be applied against SR but rather should be treated as their own flavor of magic. Spells should bypass psionic defenses and psionics should bypass spell defenses. I think they also gave suggestions to play it differently, too, where it's all one thing and SR applies to them both equally.
Since this class is roughly based on psioinic-type powers rather than magic, I could believe any explanation where the developers DIDN'T want SR to apply to Kinetic Blast just as easily as I can believe any explanation where they did want it.
I don't know if they have chimed in on this point or not. But that may be moot because they wrote it in such a way that SR applies.
There's nothing especially unprecedented about SLAs that don't duplicate specific spells, unless I'm misreading what you mean by "unlike any spell".
See, for example, numerous first-level sorcerer bloodline powers.
Wow, I don't recall that FAQ going that far. Thanks for pointing it out.
If that's true, then what this class needs is an extra line that says "Treat Kinetic Blast as if it were a Spell-Like Ability with a caster level equal to the Kineticist's class level". That would have solved all the weirdness in a single sentence.
Without that, it's just weird to be simultaneously "spell-like" and "unlike any spell".
It is treated like a spell (insomuch as any other spell-like ability is anyways)--it just happens to be a unique spell is all.
Also, the second sentence of the Wild Talent class ability says the following:
Several books also say the following about Spell-like abilities:
Hit dice are often synonymous with class levels.
If they did not have caster level, they would never be able to pass the SR with their blast.
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Spell-like abilities that do not mimic spells are hardly anything new. several sorcerer bloodline abilities, cleric domain powers, wizard school benefits, and oracle mysteries are SLAs that do not mimic spells.
Spell-like is used to describe the activation rules, not that it is necessarily mimicking a specific spell. And for that matter, there are some supernatural abilities that do mimic specific spells, such as a Monk's Abundant Step.
If they did not have caster level, they would never be able to pass the SR with their blast.
Since they have a SLA they count the levels of the class as their caster level for things that need a caster level for that SLA. But they don't have a general all purpose Caster Level like an actual caster.
You can't craft in PFS anyway, so RAW barely matters. Ask your DM. If your group doesn't think caster crafting is too OP for your game, then they shouldn't think Kineticist crafting is too OP for your game.
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You can't craft in PFS anyway, so RAW barely matters. Ask your DM. If your group doesn't think caster crafting is too OP for your game, then they shouldn't think Fighter crafting is too OP for your game.
Some GM's like to play by the rules. Some like to know the rule before they make a houserule.