Hello,
lets build a whip-neticist! or rather, i am putting together a build idea using kinetic form, kinetic whip and entangling infusion the idea is to go big, get a 20+ reach and root enemies in place.
so, the main points:
1) Cold blast to start, expand to air at level 7.
2) I'll need kinetic blade and kinetic whip for form infusions.
3) Entangling infusion or a comparable debuff for substance.
4) Kinetic Form to get a size and reach boost.
5) Feat wise combat reflexes and weapon finesse.
i see the build as providing its own armor and weapon, freeing massive wealth for toys and an extravagant life style.
thoughts or improvements?
Seems quite solid. With the extra wealth, I'd say look into an overflowing rod as soon as you can afford it. If you manage to pull one off at some level between 8 and 10, you can gain the exceptionally-useful level 11 overflow boosts early. You don't need a diadem because you're a whip specialist, so that saves you 18k that you can put towards the rod. Certainly make sure to have one by level 13 to get the level 16 benefits.
thanks as always!
is the whip one handed?
I'm thinking a wand of Long Arm could be useful, as could lunge or shield proficiency.
The build is very tempting for the rather low requirements to pull off, lots of resources left over to be a switch hitter or grab some fun utilities.
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Torbyne wrote: thanks as always!
is the whip one handed?
I'm thinking a wand of Long Arm could be useful, as could lunge or shield proficiency.
The build is very tempting for the rather low requirements to pull off, lots of resources left over to be a switch hitter or grab some fun utilities.
The fact of the matter is, one of my two non-campaign playtest characters (for one-shot playtests) was pretty much exactly your build (geo with earth whip), so it was easy to give suggestions! Wand of long arm could for sure be useful, as could shields, since you will be less likely to need a free hand to gather power. In my build, I indeed went switch hitter (with the intent of usually doing whip though) with ride the blast to get up to far-away enemies who didn't want a 20-reach wonder in their face. He was quite effective in each playtest situation, in the three areas of damage, area control, and debuff potential. Eat stone, baykok!
hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round...
Torbyne wrote: hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round... Quicken doesn't effect whip at all. It's already part of another action. You would need to double it to get that effect, but it's definitely pretty devastating (granted you would need to take a bunch of feats you only use in that contingency, so potentially not worth it compared to making, say, an empowered composite whip instead).
When my whip guy came across a monster that just needed to die, he would either quicken a ride the blast and then full attack with the best boosts he had left, or, if he was already in melee, he would do something like empowered metal whip. Because empowering your full attack that hits for 13d6+13+Con+party buffs+Power Attack if he chooses (before the empower) per hit is fun. It's a lot of burn, though, so only when it really needs to die!
Mark Seifter wrote: Torbyne wrote: hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round... Quicken doesn't effect whip at all. It's already part of another action. You would need to double it to get that effect, but it's definitely pretty devastating (granted you would need to take a bunch of feats you only use in that contingency, so potentially not worth it compared to making, say, an empowered composite whip instead).
When my whip guy came across a monster that just needed to die, he would either quicken a ride the blast and then full attack with the best boosts he had left, or, if he was already in melee, he would do something like empowered metal whip. Because empowering your full attack that hits for 13d6+13+Con+party buffs+Power Attack if he chooses (before the empower) per hit is fun. It's a lot of burn, though, so only when it really needs to die! Re-reading Kinetic Blade, what is it that stops a Kineticist from dual wielding from the get go? The normal limit to blasts per round is actions but kinetic blade/whip are not actions, they are riders on other actions. If you can pay the cost (free at level 8) can't you just declare that you are TWF and manifest two whips as part of your TWF full attack?
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Torbyne wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Torbyne wrote: hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round... Quicken doesn't effect whip at all. It's already part of another action. You would need to double it to get that effect, but it's definitely pretty devastating (granted you would need to take a bunch of feats you only use in that contingency, so potentially not worth it compared to making, say, an empowered composite whip instead).
When my whip guy came across a monster that just needed to die, he would either quicken a ride the blast and then full attack with the best boosts he had left, or, if he was already in melee, he would do something like empowered metal whip. Because empowering your full attack that hits for 13d6+13+Con+party buffs+Power Attack if he chooses (before the empower) per hit is fun. It's a lot of burn, though, so only when it really needs to die! Re-reading Kinetic Blade, what is it that stops a Kineticist from dual wielding from the get go? The normal limit to blasts per round is actions but kinetic blade/whip are not actions, they are riders on other actions. If you can pay the cost (free at level 8) can't you just declare that you are TWF and manifest two whips as part of your TWF full attack? It has a limiter in paragraph two sentence one to being usable only once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full attack action (the key word being the word "once").
Ah, thank you, thank you. That means it is not possible to dual wield until level 17 than? or not at all. at such a late point it isnt very relevant anyways.
I'm leaning towards a buckler and a glove of storing based on that.
Though there might be some room for a kukri/whip - butterfly's sting build in the future :)
Torbyne wrote: Ah, thank you, thank you. That means it is not possible to dual wield until level 17 than? or not at all. at such a late point it isnt very relevant anyways.
I'm leaning towards a buckler and a glove of storing based on that.
Though there might be some room for a kukri/whip - butterfly's sting build in the future :)
Yeah, if you want to build toward that level 17 thing, you kind of need to have a manufactured weapon for the other hand at earlier levels to use the feats, and if so, to be worth the -2 accuracy on the blast, it needs to be doing something major to assist you, for instance Butterfly's Sting to pass yourself killer crits (also interesting would be to put menacing on the kukri if it weren't for the reach build, since menacing requires adjacency; can still give menacing to a flank buddy though, instead of yourself).
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trying to plan out a build makes me wish talents in the book were listed by level :/
So far:
Human, 20 point buy
STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 18 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
LVL1- Extended Range / PBS, Precise Shot
LVL2- Slick
LVL3- Kinetic Blade / Weapon Finesse
LVL4- Heat Adaptation (not sold on this, cold would work... kind of a free slot)
LVL5- Entangling Infusion / Toughness
LVL6- Waterdancer (Could use favored class bonus for the other Adaptation talent here)
LVL7- Expanded element: Air / Combat Reflexes
LVL8- Cold Snap (Could also go with the expanded defense to gain a boost against ranged attacks.)
LVL9- Kinetic Whip / Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast
LVL10- Kinetic Form
The only other things i'd really want to work in or towards would be Shimmering Mirage, wings of Air and maybe Suffocate or expanded defense.
I like the synergy going on with Cold Snap, it hits dex for opponents in melee with you, lowering their AC and saves against your Entangling Infusion. Level four i am not sure what to do on, am i missing anything really cool? Does anyone think the favored class bonus feat worth it over just getting more HP?
There is also the Tribal Scars feat which could add some speed and HP, maybe worth giving up Precise shot for? Waterdancer already adds to base speed though...
I'm thinking about replacing the level four utility with Kinetic Healer, its a good emergency measure and cold snap will work just as well for environmental hazards as heat adaptation.
Are there any melee feats to suggest for a kineticist? I am thinking about dropping all of the level one choices to focus on mixing it up in melee.
If you want to focus on melee, definitely pick up Weapon Focus ASAP. I also second taking Kinetic Healer. It's a very nice bit of healing for limited burn, and your buddies will appreciate it as well. Toughness should probably be 1st level with Finesse.
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good points. i think i would go with Tribal Scars at level one instead of toughness though, grab the extra HP when it is most crucial and pick up Toughness at 3.
1:Weapon Finesse, Tribal Scars (6 HP/+5' movement)
3:Toughness
5:Weapon Focus
7:Combat Relfexes (no need to get this before Kinetic Whip)
Dex will easily climb to 20-22 with a belt and overflow, maybe start out with a studded leather armor and use Shroud for a shield bonus?
It also may be worth it to take Tribal Scars: Raptorscale. You get 6 HP and +5' movement speed. The 6hp can help buffer burn so it's still attractive even though it doesn't scale like toughness.
Imbicatus wrote: It also may be worth it to take Tribal Scars: Raptorscale. You get 6 HP and +5' movement speed. The 6hp can help buffer burn so it's still attractive even though it doesn't scale like toughness. I like how you think ;)
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Kinetic Healer really comes into its own at lvl 7 when you use your composite blasts to power it. Thats 1 burn, for you or your party or 7 non lethal for 8d6 + 8 + Con + Overflow healing. With a con of 22 that an average of 46 healing for 7 nonlethal, not a bad trade off. Pretty decent in combat heal. Having more con by then at level 8 (20 Con + 2 lvl + 2 size + 4 belt) gives you a con of 28 which is give you about 6 - 8 heals per days of that amount, before you have to have them accept the burn.
a revised plan for a stronger focus on melee.
Human, 20 point buy
STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 18 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
LVL1- Kinetic Blade / Weapon Finesse, Tribal Scars
LVL2- Slick
LVL3- Extended Range? is there a better option? / Toughness
LVL4- Kinetic Healer
LVL5- Entangling Infusion / Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast
LVL6- Waterdancer (use favored class bonus for cold Adaptation; prereg for Cold Snap)
LVL7- Expanded element: Air / Combat Reflexes
LVL8- Cold Snap
LVL9- Kinetic Whip / Lunge? Iron Will?
LVL10- Kinetic Form
Taenia wrote: Kinetic Healer really comes into its own at lvl 7 when you use your composite blasts to power it. Thats 1 burn, for you or your party or 7 non lethal for 8d6 + 8 + Con + Overflow healing. With a con of 22 that an average of 46 healing for 7 nonlethal, not a bad trade off. Pretty decent in combat heal. Having more con by then at level 8 (20 Con + 2 lvl + 2 size + 4 belt) gives you a con of 28 which is give you about 6 - 8 heals per days of that amount, before you have to have them accept the burn. Interesting, i didnt realize you could use a composite blast for kinetic healer. and without paying the cost of it no less! can you empower kinetic heal with gather energy?
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No you cannot empower it. Basically your standard action is the heal, you can gather as a move but that doesn't do anything for healer. Empower is part of the blast action so doesn't modify it until you actually fire the blast, the gather simply lowers any burn you might suffer during that action, such as from empowering the blast.
too bad, getting composite heals are already very nice though.
He/She is right, unfortunately. There is no way that I know of to remove the burn cost of KH. The rest looks pretty good.
Mark Seifter wrote: Torbyne wrote: hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round... Quicken doesn't effect whip at all. It's already part of another action. You would need to double it to get that effect, but it's definitely pretty devastating (granted you would need to take a bunch of feats you only use in that contingency, so potentially not worth it compared to making, say, an empowered composite whip instead).
When my whip guy came across a monster that just needed to die, he would either quicken a ride the blast and then full attack with the best boosts he had left, or, if he was already in melee, he would do something like empowered metal whip. Because empowering your full attack that hits for 13d6+13+Con+party buffs+Power Attack if he chooses (before the empower) per hit is fun. It's a lot of burn, though, so only when it really needs to die! I' a little confused. How did the character get 13d6+13? Are we talking about a 19th level character here? The diadem only adds d6s. Sorry, still learning the ins and outs of the class.
i wasnt looking to remove the burn cost, i was looking to empower and maximize a heal and deal with the burn from that. but like i said, the heal itself is already a nice bonus. as is the build has a spot or two where i could just put in something for the fun of it.
Richard McGuffin wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Torbyne wrote: hang on, if the whip is one handed you can quicken a kinetic whip and still generate a standard whip for your regular attacks, letting you dual wield with reach for a round, yeah? It costs three burn (assuming infusion specialization of 2 at level 8 applies to each whip so you only pay to quicken) but when it absolutely, positively needs to die this round... Quicken doesn't effect whip at all. It's already part of another action. You would need to double it to get that effect, but it's definitely pretty devastating (granted you would need to take a bunch of feats you only use in that contingency, so potentially not worth it compared to making, say, an empowered composite whip instead).
When my whip guy came across a monster that just needed to die, he would either quicken a ride the blast and then full attack with the best boosts he had left, or, if he was already in melee, he would do something like empowered metal whip. Because empowering your full attack that hits for 13d6+13+Con+party buffs+Power Attack if he chooses (before the empower) per hit is fun. It's a lot of burn, though, so only when it really needs to die! I' a little confused. How did the character get 13d6+13? Are we talking about a 19th level character here? The diadem only adds d6s. Sorry, still learning the ins and outs of the class. Upon further inspection I'm even more befuddled. the diadem specifically states not to apply the extra damage dice from it to form infusions like K-whip. If the 13d6+13 is a result of the empower that would make sense to me. However I have no idea how you get that total before hand?
Your Kinetic Healing does as much healing as the basic blast of the element you used to pick it up (Aether or Water). You add your modifiers, such as Elemental Overflow and Con, but it is not a blast so you cannot Empower it, cannot reduce the burn cost by Gather Power. Kinetic Healer is a utility wild talent, not a blast in itself. You can, however, use an Overflowing Rod or a Hollow Rod to increase the power of your Kinetic Healing.
CalethosVB wrote: Your Kinetic Healing does as much healing as the basic blast of the element you used to pick it up (Aether or Water). You add your modifiers, such as Elemental Overflow and Con, but it is not a blast so you cannot Empower it, cannot reduce the burn cost by Gather Power. Kinetic Healer is a utility wild talent, not a blast in itself. You can, however, use an Overflowing Rod or a Hollow Rod to increase the power of your Kinetic Healing. That's what I had assumed at first. I got excited at the thought of composite healing but, yeah, probably not intended. The talent lacks the word basic before blast though so maybe you could do an aether infused water composite? Doesn't get you much extra though.
What kind of performance can i expect from a melee build kineticist?
I am coming up with this under the assumptions of 24 CON (18 base, +2 level, +2 Belt of physical Might, +2 Size) and a 20 DEX (16 starting, +2 Belt of physical Might, +2 Size)
Start of the day burn three to boost Shroud of Water armor bonus to +9 and one burn to activate Kinetic Form. Burn limit is at 4 out of 10 possible.
Zero Burn Options (Level 10-Infusion specialization of 2):
Cold whip: 5D6+3 (1/2 CON) +6 (elemental Overflow) for an average damage of 26 per hit and 2-3 hits per round depending on haste.
Air Whip: 5D6+6 +7(CON) +6 (elemental Overflow)averaging 36 per hit against a much higher AC with the same 2-3 hits per round.
Single Burn Options, usable 6 rounds/day:
Empowered Cold Whip: 7D6+4 (1.5X1/2 CON) +9 (1.5X Elemental Overflow) averaging 37 per hit
Empowered Air Whip: 7D6+9 +10 (CON) +9 (Elemental Overflow) averaging 52 per hit
Two Burn options, usable 3 rounds/day:
Entangling Infusion, no change to damage but adds control/debuff to hits.
Three Burn options, usable 2 rounds/day:
Empowered Entangling whip. same as single burn damage but with added control/debuff.
At level 11 entangling goes down to only one burn per round instead of two and i could get 6 rounds per day of entangling attacks.
Damage is not the high point of the class but control and debuff is looks too burn intensive for a melee build until level 11+ which is too late game to really build around to me. Perhaps i should focus more on defense? take two burn at the start of the day for a +6 shield bonus, take one extra burn to fuel Kinetic Form. A +3 or +4 armor is not beyond reason at this point. say a +3 mithral breastplate for an AC of 30 before amulets, rings and such.
Its not terrible damage but lower than i'd like considering how rare the debuffs will be, from my experience a session will have 12-15 rounds of combat in a day.
The wild card is the usability of combat reflexes and any extra mileage you get out of infusions on those hits.
Thoughts or improvements?
At level 11, it may also be a good idea to go blade+entangling sometimes, as a no-burn option, depending on whether you expect AoOs or the on-hit entangle to be more useful that round. That's what I was doing, anyway; swapping up between those on the fly. Another alternative, when you really want the entangle and reach both, is gather+entangling empowered whip instead of full attack. If you get the AoOs you are expecting, then the empowered bonus damage will cancel out the one missing iterative (and extra haste attack if the group has that running) pretty quickly.
Mark Seifter wrote: At level 11, it may also be a good idea to go blade+entangling sometimes, as a no-burn option, depending on whether you expect AoOs or the on-hit entangle to be more useful that round. That's what I was doing, anyway; swapping up between those on the fly. Another alternative, when you really want the entangle and reach both, is gather+entangling empowered whip instead of full attack. If you get the AoOs you are expecting, then the empowered bonus damage will cancel out the one missing iterative (and extra haste attack if the group has that running) pretty quickly. Good point, once in Melee the blade is likely to be just as useful as the whip. As always, thanks!
I would definitely suggest using the Shield bonus from Shroud of Water, then just pick up some decent armor. You take 1 less burn, which is always nice, but do gain 1 less to AC. Personally, I'll take the 1 less burn and shore up my defenses with something else. One thing to remember about breastplate though, is that you're proficient with it so you will take that -1 ACP to your attacks. May want to look at Celestial Mail or Elven Chain with some flat bonuses. Unless you take the Armor Expert trait, then you're golden. *EDIT* Ugh, forgot that Elven Chain has a Max Dex of only +4... Disregard that suggestion. Celestial Mail would be a very good option for you!
In regards to combat, I think plinking the enemy a few times while you close to melee range would be a perfect way to soften them up to keep your burn usage relatively low. Now, if you're looking at the "short adventure day" mentality, then blast away my friend!
Also, Tribal Scars... Wow! I had never noticed that feat before, a great feat for Kineticists.
*EDIT*
Torbyne, which FCB were you planning on taking? I'm really torn between the +1 HP and the Human FCB. Having two additional feats is pretty swell, but having that extra HP each level equates to 1 more Burn point you could take.
I'd probably go with armor expert and maybe fate's favored. what traits are others looking at?
My main battle plan is use the whip, range and mobility to set up at the far end of where i can hit and punish them with AoOs if they move in closer, follow this with the kinetic blade for the melee finisher. Thinking about it now though, primary air, kinetic whip and lunge can annoy the ever loving crap out of monsters and GMs. Swing at 15' above your foe's head and be safely out of their retaliation range.
I am thinking the extra feat FCB now that i realized how useful it is for your expanded element. Remember that your burn isnt actually limited by your HP, its your CON Mod. In my example i can only take 10 burn a day and usually want to start with three every morning. the kind of situation where i'd max out my burn is where i am going for a big take down without much expectation of taking damage afterwards. The cool thing about this build (see what i did there?) is the size, reach and mobility. and Stellar AC and front line saves. The damage is actually really good considering its a single handed weapon and you get a nice shield AC for free.
(Level 10 = 50 HP + 70 CON MOD + 10 Toughness + 6 Tribal Scars = 136 HP) Need to find some magic items to grant temp HP or spend money saved on gear towards training up HP to the max.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Keep in mind that neither Kinetic Whip or Blade add elemental overflow damage.
Burn is your nova option so be careful on when and how you use it. I like the initial to set up defenses and throw in buffer to power overflow and then save anything for emergencies. I remember needing to kill a swarm on my lvl 6 Kineticist and using burn each round to empower my AoE attack because no one else could damage the swarm.
Taenia wrote: Keep in mind that neither Kinetic Whip or Blade add elemental overflow damage.
Burn is your nova option so be careful on when and how you use it. I like the initial to set up defenses and throw in buffer to power overflow and then save anything for emergencies. I remember needing to kill a swarm on my lvl 6 Kineticist and using burn each round to empower my AoE attack because no one else could damage the swarm.
Err.. The basic simple blast does full damage to swarms, no need for burn to do it.
I missed that overflow didnt stack in melee though. poop. two burn and a melee risk to deal moderate damage in a full attack without any rider effects. I think i'll build up a comparison ranged character to see what infusions they can manage. my basic assumption is a lot more since they are more likely to use Gather Energy to boost range and infusion specialization to add substances.
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An alternative analysis, ranged specialist.
Human, 20 point buy
STR: 10 DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
LVL1: Extended Range / PBS, Precise Shot / FCB-HP
LVL2: Air's Reach / - / FCB 1/6 feat
LVL3: Pushing Infusion / Weapon Focus / FCB 2/6 feat
LVL4: Air Cushion / - / FCB 3/6 feat
LVL5: <open slot> / Toughness / FCB 4/6 feat
LVL6: Wings of Air / - / 5/6 feat
LVL7: Expanded Element: Air+Magnetic infusion / Medium Armor Proficiency / Air Shroud
LVL8: Windsight / - / FCB-HP
LVL9: Cyclone / <open slot> / FCB-HP
LVL10: Celerity / - / FCB-HP
With this set up, AC will suffer but ranged attacks are more likely than melee and there is that wonderful miss chance for those. There are a lot more free slots in the design too.
I was going to grab extra wild talent again and go for aerial adaptation but Air Shroud covers the same environmental hazard and much more at the cost of a few points of electricity resistance.
Damage options at level 10 assuming gather energy. 8 possible burn, 3 used to charge elemental overflow.
Empowered Thunderstorm 60' range, 0 burn: 15D6+15 +9 (elemental Overflow) +7 (1.5xcon mod of 5. Con of 16+2 size+2 belt) average damage of 83 per round.
Empowered Magnetic Thunderstorm, 2 burn, usable 2/day: 83 damage plus -4 AC against archers and melee weapons (more or less)
Maximized Empowered Thunderstorm, 2 burn, usable 2/day: 121 damage
Empowered Magnetic Electric blasts are free all day, every day. 30' range, 7D6+3(con)+9(elemental overflow) average damage 36 plus -4 AC against archers and melee weapons (more or less)
Empowered Extreme Range Air blasts are free all day, every day. 960' range. 7D6+7+7(con)+9(elemental Overflow) average damage 44.
There are some nice utility options, you can cover haste if the caster needs to get other defense up. cyclone is great if anything comes after you in the air since you are unlikely to catch allies in the radius. windsight for scouting of course. perma-fly. Magnetic infusion and pushing respectively boost your allies or give those pit spells a second chance ;)
I think this is a more tempting build than the melee route actually...
Torbyne wrote: Taenia wrote: Keep in mind that neither Kinetic Whip or Blade add elemental overflow damage.
Burn is your nova option so be careful on when and how you use it. I like the initial to set up defenses and throw in buffer to power overflow and then save anything for emergencies. I remember needing to kill a swarm on my lvl 6 Kineticist and using burn each round to empower my AoE attack because no one else could damage the swarm.
Err.. The basic simple blast does full damage to swarms, no need for burn to do it.
I missed that overflow didnt stack in melee though. poop. two burn and a melee risk to deal moderate damage in a full attack without any rider effects. I think i'll build up a comparison ranged character to see what infusions they can manage. my basic assumption is a lot more since they are more likely to use Gather Energy to boost range and infusion specialization to add substances. He probably meant during the playtest where simple blasts didn't do anything to swarms.
Protoman wrote: Torbyne wrote: Taenia wrote: Keep in mind that neither Kinetic Whip or Blade add elemental overflow damage.
Burn is your nova option so be careful on when and how you use it. I like the initial to set up defenses and throw in buffer to power overflow and then save anything for emergencies. I remember needing to kill a swarm on my lvl 6 Kineticist and using burn each round to empower my AoE attack because no one else could damage the swarm.
Err.. The basic simple blast does full damage to swarms, no need for burn to do it.
I missed that overflow didnt stack in melee though. poop. two burn and a melee risk to deal moderate damage in a full attack without any rider effects. I think i'll build up a comparison ranged character to see what infusions they can manage. my basic assumption is a lot more since they are more likely to use Gather Energy to boost range and infusion specialization to add substances. He probably meant during the playtest where simple blasts didn't couldn't yet do anything to swarms. oh. good point. :P
Torbyne wrote:
I missed that overflow didnt stack in melee though. poop. two burn and a melee risk to deal moderate damage in a full attack without any rider effects. I think i'll build up a comparison ranged character to see what infusions they can manage. my basic assumption is a lot more since they are more likely to use Gather Energy to boost range and infusion specialization to add substances.
There are a lot of variables when it comes to figuring out damage for ranged blasts when figuring in infusions. There are many AoE infusions that will obviously out-perform the melee kineticist under ideal circumstances, will be very comparable under good but non-ideal circumstances, but fall much shorter under very non-ideal circumstances. How often these categories come up is very biased based on GM, personal experience, etc.
Case in point: Torrent vs Chain vs Eruption. Let's assume you're level 8 (when the first iterative comes into play), so you do 4d6 of damage with your blast. Ignore static bonuses, metakinesis, etc. for simplicity's sake.
Chain: Can arc between enemies that are a full 30 ft apart, good for general battlefield use.
Ideal: 4d6 + 3d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 = 10d6
Realistically: Between 7d6 and 9d6
Eruption: 10ft Radius, good for clusters
Ideal: 48d6
Realistically: between 8d6 and 12d6
Torrent: All hit in a line 30 ft, good for hallways
Ideal: 24d6
Realistically: 8d6 (it's hard to get enemies to line up for you)
Melee: Have to be in melee
Ideal: 8d6
Realistically: 8d6 if using touch attacks.
So as you can see, Chain has the lowest ideal but is also the most consistent of these three ranged infusions due to the fact that it simply jumps 30 feet to the next target and doesn't allow for saving throws like the other two. However, the others can have much higher potentials if things are working in the Kineticist's favor. Depending on your GM, they might like to throw a lot of smaller enemies at you as opposed to a couple larger ones, making Eruption start to be skewed slightly higher. Then trying to compare that to the melee option which also has a consistent amount of damage (but slightly lower burn on the form infusion meaning more likely to use a Metakinesis).
Needless to say, comparing different things the Kineticist can do gets very complicated very quick when taking into account for everything it can do.
Fun mini-analysis Aziraya. One thing I've enjoyed in some of my kineticist builds is to go a little kitchen sink and pick a bunch of these options, since the investment isn't too high for any given path. That way, you can adapt on the fly to the best choice for your current reality and thus perform closer to ideal!
While good points, I was already accounting for much of that and was focusing on single target potential for detailed analysis and AoE effects are compared more as utilities, that is, nice when they come up but usually not to be counted on.
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