Pros / Cons of these classes


Advice


So I was thinking about these classes and maybe playing a single-classed one in a home game mostly dealing with combat and dungeon diving, between 8th and 16th level. Anybody care to weigh in on which ones are good/bad/ok? And especially what makes them good/bad/ok? And which ones would be the most fun to play?

Storm Druid
Fullcaster with bonus domains. Can't be that bad, right?

Vanilla or archetyped Hunter
Looks cool, like a Druid with a more active animal. 2/3 casters are generally well-balanced...

Unchained Summoner
... Except when they're not, and need to be rebalanced. Is Summoner Unchained balanced?

White Haired Witch
It looks like it hurts giving up hexes, but the hair just seems so cool.

Empiricist Investigator
I've been told that Investigators fall behind in combat. Can someone back me up or refute this?

Vanilla Samurai
I've always wanted to split a god's herald's head in two with a katana. A pseudo-paladin without pesky smite alignment restrictions and better weapons, or so I've heard.

Horselord Cavalier
It's funny how pathfinder strikers can't dart in and out of combat easily and remain effective. Except dragons with Flyby Attack and the Vital Strike chain (which combos together!).


My thoughts on a couple of the things you mentioned...

Storm Druid = A sidegrade to base Druid. The trades are pretty much equivalent in usefulness, just different. If you don't want an animal companion, you can now get two domains. If you aren't a fan of SNA, you can now spontaneously cast from those domains instead. Really Druid has really bleh class features beyond casting, Wildshape, and domain/companion so you are really losing nothing of value to gain not much of value besides the things mentioned. Storm Druid is solid and could definitely be worthwhile.

Empiricist Investigator = Straight upgrade to Investigator. Poison is of dubious value for PCs so trading it to make several awesome skills intelligence based is a great trade. Swift alchemy is pretty bleh too, so bonuses and then eventual immunity to illusions is also a plus. I can't speak for the capstone as I never bothered to read it or the base Investigator's as it is a capstone: It will never come into play. As far as combat, Investigators have Extracts to buff, Mutagen access, and can get +1/2 level to hit and damage as a swift action (if you take the talent to make it swift, which should be an obvious choice). I see no reason to think that Investigator can't keep up or exceed comparable classes in combat. Investigator looks like a lot of fun really.

White Haired Witch = BAD. You are 1/2 BAB. You lack class features to buff your attack rolls barring spells, but what, do you want to wait until you are able to cast Transformation at 150 or 300 gold a pop to function? White Haired Witch may seem cool, but you will never, ever hit and/or succeed vs CMD against a non-trash mob, at least not without some extreme optimization that may make you kinda okay but still meh at it in the long run. The archetype is like the poster child of trap options. I would avoid it unless you are looking for an optimization challenge and participating in a low powered game.


Investigators are bad at combat at first; by 8th level they should be just fine, so long as you take talents which have a little synergy rather than whichever ones sound interesting.

Agree with chaoseffect on the witch & druid.

I'd be worried about a hunter in a game going to 16th level. Animal companions gain less than 1 HD/character level (& have 3/4 BAB without a boost to accuracy of their own) and so don't age well. A druid with an AnC would probably be better due to having higher level buff spells.

An unchained summoner has an eidolon, which ages better than a hunter's AnC. Or there's their Summon Monster SLA which stays relevant. Unfortunately the spellcasting is much worse; it's still a better class overall IMO.

Samurai & Cavalier: Depends how much support you get from the party. Martials can't support themselves at high levels, but they can be a valuable part of the party if there's enough cooperation going on.


I've got a couple Battle Witch concepts I'd love to try, but White Haired Witch ain't one of em. Anyhow, Battle Witch isn't a 'proper' witch exactly since you need to veer off into Eldritch Knight after 6 or 8, though you can still use the Hair Hex as a reach support-weapon.

Samurai are pretty straightforwardly deadly but lack Paladin features like spells and saves, though some of the challenge abilities are interesting. I still find them a touch boring unless cut with a little spice, like a little MoMS Monk fighting style mastery, or a level of Cleric to work-in some Domain Power fun, or a level of Swashbuckler to go sword-master, or... well there's a lot of things you can do with straightforward martial classes that can stand to drop a level or two.


Thanks for the feedback. I suppose hair loss isn't as much of a problem as hex loss.

I just hope the Investigator doesn't tread too much in bard and rogue territory, because those are likely also going to be played.

I'm currently questioning the Animal Companion, Mount, and Eidolon classes because they take up so much paper space and so much game time. Part of me knows that the improved action economy is mechanically worth it most of the time, and part of me doesn't want to put up with a second sheet.

Is this particular Cavalier archetype worth it?

The party will probably have bard support. The party plays pretty cooperatively, though the builds are usually uninspired and a bit redundant.


My Self wrote:

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose hair loss isn't as much of a problem as hex loss.

I just hope the Investigator doesn't tread too much in bard and rogue territory, because those are likely also going to be played.

I'm currently questioning the Animal Companion, Mount, and Eidolon classes because they take up so much paper space and so much game time. Part of me knows that the improved action economy is mechanically worth it most of the time, and part of me doesn't want to put up with a second sheet.

The party will probably have bard support.

So random thought. If you group is most likely going to have a Bard and is going to be melee heavy besides that, why not consider Skald? Superficially there is a lot of Bard overlap, but Raging Song stacks with Inspire Courage completely. Having one of each in the party would make any martial and/or caster that uses summons incredibly happy.


chaoseffect wrote:
My Self wrote:

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose hair loss isn't as much of a problem as hex loss.

I just hope the Investigator doesn't tread too much in bard and rogue territory, because those are likely also going to be played.

I'm currently questioning the Animal Companion, Mount, and Eidolon classes because they take up so much paper space and so much game time. Part of me knows that the improved action economy is mechanically worth it most of the time, and part of me doesn't want to put up with a second sheet.

The party will probably have bard support.

So random thought. If you group is most likely going to have a Bard and is going to be melee heavy besides that, why not consider Skald? Superficially there is a lot of Bard overlap, but Raging Song stacks with Inspire Courage completely. Having one of each in the party would make any martial and/or caster that uses summons incredibly happy.

Uninspired party tactics. Summons are infrequent and unspecialized. The party makeup often ends up in a way that almost everybody is a caster on some level. And the party isn't necessarily going to be melee heavy. But thanks for the suggestion. I like Skald flavor, though perhaps it could use a thing from Savage Skald and be able to affect enemies (such as spellcasters?)


Concerning Horselord:

Sand Storm/As One are really cool and also a straight upgrade to your non-hasted full attack at the time you get them, but really that is not going to last forever and eventually you are going to be feeling the loss in damage by only getting the damage of two strikes in a single round instead of your full attack, especially if Haste is a common occurrence. Eventually it will transition into a situational ability instead of your bread and butter.

If you wanted to be a mobile threat have you considered going mounted archery? Note that with zero mounted feat support you can full attack while your mount moves; you only take negatives if your mount double moves, which the actual feat Mounted Archery reduces. Archery is already awesome and adding Challenge on top of it would mean a lot of enemies getting wrecked, especially as you could kite as required so they never get full attacks.


chaoseffect wrote:

Concerning Horselord:

Sand Storm/As One are really cool and also a straight upgrade to your non-hasted full attack at the time you get them, but really that is not going to last forever and eventually you are going to be feeling the loss in damage by only getting the damage of two strikes in a single round instead of your full attack, especially if Haste is a common occurrence. Eventually it will transition into a situational ability instead of your bread and butter.

If you wanted to be a mobile threat have you considered going mounted archery? Note that with zero mounted feat support you can full attack while your mount moves; you only take negatives if your mount double moves, which the actual feat Mounted Archery reduces.

I kinda wanted a striker that wasn't an archer. Archers are awesome and all, but I'm more interested in building a front or second-line martial character who doesn't use a bow.

Are there any other archetypes that make for good harassers?

Oh yeah, and Challenge is only for melee weapons, unlike Smite Evil/Good, unless you're a Luring Cavalier.

Liberty's Edge

Personally I've never seen the point of the Horselord archetype. At least if your GM agrees that escape route on the mount and rider means no AoOs from movement. You're already going to want ride-by-attack for spirited charge, so spring attack is kind of redundant. Mobility becomes pretty much useless. And favored terrain:desert is pretty meh. The only good thing about it is being able to use a scimitar to charge for similar damage to a lance. For all that you're giving up 3 teamwork feat, plus another bonus feat, plus a +2 on top of the regular charging bonus, and no AC penalty while charging.

So if your GM thinks paired escape route is cheesy, or you really want a high crit build, I wouldn't bother. I'd go with one of the other cavalier archetypes, or better yet, go Hunter. Better animals, including fliers if you want, and the spells will help you and the animal out much more. And outflank/pack flanking/menacing weapon is a pretty awesome combo.

EDIT - Also what Chaoseffect said. And since you're going to be playing to a level that you could get mounted skirmisher, there's no reason not to do that.


My Self wrote:

I kinda wanted a striker that wasn't an archer. Archers are awesome and all, but I'm more interested in building a front or second-line martial character who doesn't use a bow.

Are there any other archetypes that make for good harassers?

Oh yeah, and Challenge is only for melee weapons, unlike Smite Evil/Good, unless you're a Luring Cavalier.

Thanks for the correction about bows and Challenge, guess I got the Smite wording stuck in my head.

I don't have much experience with Cavalier really, but if you want to try hit and run melee, what about going Mounted Fury Barbarian or alternatively just be any Barbarian you like and pick up a Helm of the Valkyrie? Get Pounce and Ride-by Attack for the best in wrecking face and then running away laughing afterward before they can react.


My Self wrote:
Are there any other archetypes that make for good harassers?

Well it's a Monk archetype but... Sohei Monk can pick up Mounted Skirmisher as a no-prerequisite bonus feat, along with other Mounted Combat feats. They can also buff their mounts with Barkskin and Monk abilities. Nature Soul / Animal Ally can get you a Horse. You can ignore wisdom and flurry in a mithril breastplate, and eventually flurry with a polearm with Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling. Essentially ride-by flurry on a supermount.


My Self wrote:
Are there any other archetypes that make for good harassers?

Just an idea, but at one point I thought of taking Cavalier for the full BAB and tactician, or inquisitor for the solo tactics and then using the Weapon Champion and

Blacksnake archetype packages from RGG. Trade away features from a class to get new features in an "archetype package." Taking both of these allows you to focus immensely on a Whip, and you could stack huge bonuses to Trip and Disarm along with the ability to threaten with your whip full distance.

The RP would work well too; blacksnake gets all the ladies/guys when he/she can take their pants off 15ft away and play keep away holding said pants.

Grand Lodge

Well, for Cavalier, Daring Champion is pretty nice.

No Mount needed.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, for Cavalier, Daring Champion is pretty nice.

No Mount needed.

Loss of Parry and Riposte makes me a sad panda though. If that was the route you would want to go perhaps consider a three level dip into Inquisitor for Solo Tactics? Normally I would say go for a 4 level dip as to qualify for a now nerf'd feat that won't be named, but anyway... Combine that with Coordinated Charge/Intercept Charge and you can still be the nimble, movement based character that you want to be but with much less loss of combat effectiveness. Let your enemies and allies move you into full attack position.


Hm. So Horselord isn't actually that good... Would Beast Rider be better?


empiricist Investigator is great! start with an 18 str and a 16 int and you're set! I personally went half-elf for the FCB, with dual minded and a longspear as my weapon.

lv1 and 2 you're a high str guy, pretty much like a fighter. Have one of your extracts be heightened awareness, it's great synergy with your skills.
Then lv3 you get mutagen and power attack, now you're like a tanky barb.
then at lv4 you get alchemical allocation spell and a potion of heroism and studied combat. Bonus to attack and skills and to attack and damage
then lv5 you learn barkskin and get quick study

You sit with a +4 natural armor from mutagen and the enhancement from barkskin. You're wearing armor, you have a +6 to hit and a +5 to damage with your class features. All of this is lasting for 50 minutes, which I've found to be plenty of time every scenario so far.

The Exchange

Hunter is pretty versatile in terms of what you can build out of it. You can go archery or melee tag team or mounted, and you can make your animal companion pretty vicious.

Here's a reasonably setup (not very optimized) archery-based hunter build outline:

Argo Fu'kyoself
LN Human Hunter (Divine Hunter) of Erastil 16
Human racial stuff: Eye for Talent, Fey Thoughts + Fey Magic + Low Light Vision.

25 PBuy
Str 14
Dex 16+2(race)+4(levels)+6(item) =28
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14+6(item) =20
Cha 8

Traits: Adopted (Aasimar: Garudakin -> Toxophilite), Deadeye's Bowman.
Drawback: Pride (grants 3rd trait: Blackthorn Rancher)

ACF every level +1 skill to Animal

1: Totem Beast
2; (from class: Precise Shot)
3: Huntmaster (Small Cat).
3: (from class: Celestial cat, Animal domain)
5: P.B.Shot
6: (from class: Animal gets bonus +1 to 2 stats)
7: Rapid Shot
9: Clustered Shots
11: Divine Interference
13: Additional Traits (Fate's Favored, Dangerously Curious)
15: something useful

Your AC will be +1 effective druid level, so it will hit 14 when you hit 16. It will have Ranger Skirmisher tricks, simple Celestial template, start with +2 Int so can take any feat level 1 and can use ioun stones, etc.

A fun tactic with this guy is to keep a quiver full of tangleshot arrows and pheromone arrows as well as other alchemical arrows, and then cast Abundant Ammo spell so you can debuff enemies all over the field for your cat to airwalking charge and trip.

He's basically a controller archer with damage as a backup, some druid & ranger spells, and a very durable and effective at debuffing boss kitty.

-Goh
.

EDIT: Oh... if dipping is on the table, dip 1 level of Wildblooded Sorcerer (Fey: Sylvan). You buy 16k Robes of Arcane Heritage, and you swap out two of your traits (Blackthorn Rancher and Dangerously Curious) as follows: Ascendant Recollection, and Dtang Ma Bloodline. You end up Hunter 15 / Sorc 1, with an Effective Druid Level of 20th (so your animal is maxed out at 16HD too). As a bonus, you can cast Sorc spells which means UMD is less necessary. Of course, this makes you way more Min Maxed.

Or, if you do that dip and you're willing to settle for a 15HD companion by 16th level, you can swap Small Cat for anything else (like say Velociraptor, or The Roc) and take a different feat instead of Huntmaster.


My Self wrote:
Hm. So Horselord isn't actually that good... Would Beast Rider be better?

You get a better pet, closer to what Druid gets, but it doesn't help you in at all if you still wanted to be a more mobile combatant. There is also the issue that you are starting at levels where soon animal companions start to fade, especially without lots of gear investment for them.

If you wanted to go that route then I would say go Hunter as their companion seems like it would stay the most relevant the longest (barring Eidolon). You would get casting to pimp your ride, not as much as the Druid but teamwork feat sharing and Ranger Tricks access for your mount is pretty awesome. Ride your thing and get Pack Flanking so you and your animal buddy are always flanking with Outflank. Throw in Mounted Skirmisher (maybe even a dip or two of Sohei to get it as a bonus feat) and you have pseudo-pounce.

If you wanted to stick Cavalier maybe go Daring Champion as previously suggested and pick up Helm of the Valkyrie for a super mount (really I love this item and can't suggest it enough for anyone that wants to be mounted but not care about the mount itself). Perhaps still Sohei dip for Mounted Skirmisher at any level.

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