I couldn't find anything that said what happens to a weapon special ability when using the wrong damage type.
Since the weapon is partially the right type, it still can be applied to the weapon itself, despite being used as the wrong damage type.
Example...
+1 Keen Cestus would still have the increased threat range when used as a bludgeoning weapon.
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How would this same situation apply on melee only applied to ranged weapons? I can't seem to find anything on this either, except melee guns specify they are double weapons.
Example...
+1 Vorpal Longsword hurled with Throw Anything
I couldn't find anything that said what happens to a weapon special ability when using the wrong damage type.
Since the weapon is partially the right type, it still can be applied to the weapon itself, despite being used as the wrong damage type.
Example...
+1 Keen Cestus would still have the increased threat range when used as a bludgeoning weapon.
Since a Cestus can deal Piercing or Bludgeoning damage, you can enchant it with the Keen Special Ability, but that ability only functions if you use the Cestus to deal Piercing damage. So a +1 Keen Cestus would not get the increased threat range when used as a Bludgeoning weapon.
A morningstar on the other hand deals Piercing and Bludgeoning damage. Since you are always dealing both types of damage, Keen would always function.
Can you show me a rules quote for that?
Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
So we have the following logic:
1) It can only be applied to Piercing or Slashing weapons. It does not say it can be applied to Piercing AND Blunt weapons or Piercing OR Blunt weapons.2) If you allow it to apply to Piercing AND/OR Blunt weapons then logicially, it should only apply while using Piercing because that is how the ability is designed.
This means that the Cestus would have to be used in Piercing mode while the Morningstar (which is always both) would always benefit.
This is really just a common sense question, not a RAW question.
I agree that they should not apply when the weapon is used as the wrong damage/attack type.
But they are still piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, melee and/or ranged, despite which way(s) they are being used.
RAI is definitely what most people will go with, but PFS and a gladiator thing I'm in is almost purely RAW.
Is there any rules that state weapon abilities only apply to weapons when used in the required way? (General, not one or two specific ones)
The rules are not written in "pure RAW" format and PFS cannot operate under that assumption despite what people say.
There are no rules that state that mixed damage type weapon abilities do or do not apply when using the wrong damage type. It is a common sense/RAI area of the rules.
Can a +1 Longsword become Keen?
Yes? Then I guess the weapon qualifies despite it only being "Slashing" not "Slashing or Piercing"
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I'll use my example, +1 Keen Cestus (using UE)
To add the keen ability...
Does it have a +1 bonus? Required.
Is it a slashing or piercing weapon? Says so on Table 1-4.
Is it a melee weapon? Says so on Table 1-4.
What disqualifies adding the keen ability? Nothing I see.
TYPE: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.
*snip dual damage section*
In other cases, a weapon can deal either of two types of damage. In a situation where the damage type is significant, the wielder can choose which type of damage to deal with such a weapon. For example, the damage caused by a dagger depends on whether the wielder is thrusting to deal piercing damage or slicing to deal slashing damage.
Nowhere does it say the weapon no longer becomes a B or P weapon, only that you can choose which damage type you choose from.
Since I have shown rules supporting RAW being a solid ruling. Would you please quote rules supporting your RAW would change this?
RAI is not what I'm asking, I'm asking for RAW only. (PFS and a RAW game)
You have not shown any RAW other than the same RAW we are all quoting from. That RAW states this applies to slashing or piercing weapons.
If it is not either a slashing or a piercing weapon it does not apply.
If the weapon is a piercing OR bludgeoning weapon there is no RAW to cover this.
It is a GM judgement call, the common sense here is that it applies to Piercing but not Bludgeoning.
Now, if you have RAW to show that it somehow applies to a Bludgeoning attack then please show it.
Honestly, are you fishing for an answer to let you do something that is clearly not the intent or is there someone who is actually trying to do this and you are trying to show them why they cannot do it?
Can a +1 Longsword become Keen?
Yes? Then I guess the weapon qualifies despite it only being "Slashing" not "Slashing or Piercing"
------I'll use my example, +1 Keen Cestus (using UE)
To add the keen ability...
Does it have a +1 bonus? Required.
Is it a slashing or piercing weapon? Says so on Table 1-4.
Is it a melee weapon? Says so on Table 1-4.What disqualifies adding the keen ability? Nothing I see.
I'm not sure that I understand the point that you are trying to make. I already agreed with you that you can apply Keen to a Cestus.
Since a Cestus can deal Piercing or Bludgeoning damage, you can enchant it with the Keen Special Ability, but that ability only functions if you use the Cestus to deal Piercing damage.
And you already agreed with me that Keen wouldn't work if you used it to deal Bludgeoning damage.
I agree that they should not apply when the weapon is used as the wrong damage/attack type.
As far as I can tell, we agree on these rules, so I am confused about this part of your post.
Nowhere does it say the weapon no longer becomes a B or P weapon, only that you can choose which damage type you choose from.
Since I have shown rules supporting RAW being a solid ruling. Would you please quote rules supporting your RAW would change this?
RAI is not what I'm asking, I'm asking for RAW only. (PFS and a RAW game)
It seems like you are disagreeing with me about something, but I have no idea what that is.
Gisher, I think he agrees with the RAI but is saying that the RAW allows you to apply keen to the Bludgeoning attack of a B or P weapon.
Gisher, I think he agrees with the RAI but is saying that the RAW allows you to apply keen to the Bludgeoning attack of a B or P weapon.
That's what I thought at first, but then he said this:
I agree that they should not apply when the weapon is used as the wrong damage/attack type.
If he agrees that Keen doesn't work if you use it to deal the wrong damage type (which could only be bludgeoning), then I don't understand how he could also think that Keen does work when you deal bludgeoning damage. I think I must be missing something.
I think I see now. You are saying that he agrees with us on RAI, but doesn't think RAW excludes it because there isn't a specific paragraph somewhere that excludes it?
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|| exactly this
Basically, since the cestus as the right prereqs (piercing for keen), using it for bludgeoning, piercing, even using throw anything, that it applies to the weapon.
But yes, RAI def shouldn't. But where's the line? Vorpal can't be used when dealing piercing w a gladius?
Great, you don't need RAW to exclude it, you need RAW to INCLUDE it..Pathfinder is an inclusive system, not an exclusive one. If it doesn't say it, you can't do it without your GM saying you can.
Summary: since there is no rule that states you can apply Keen to bludgeoning attacks you cant.
See my edit before I respond
Look, if you want to base this on prerequisites, we can go with strict RAW and by strict RAW the cestus does not have the right prerequisites.
It is not either Slashing or Piercing. It is Piercing or Bludgeoning.
That is different from Slashing or Piercing and as such, since there is no contrary text in the Keen weapon ability, you cannot add keen to it.
Is that literal RAW enough for you?
Now, no GM I know would make that ruling, but if you want to stick with literal RAW there are any number of whacky things that happen. (The usual example of the Dead being able to act comes to mind.)
Again, there is no rule enabling you to apply it to bludgeoning damage. Please show the rule that allows it.
Also, you did not answer my question if this was for you or to disprove someone else. I am getting the distinct impression it is for you and you are trying to get a consensus built up in favor of this so you can hold it over any PFS GM that says it does not work that way. I don't think you will get such a consensus.
Well then you are going to be out of luck. As Gauss pointed out, there is no such thing as a pure RAW game. For example, I don't believe that there is any RAW that prohibits a dead character from walking around, talking, or fighting. (Dying characters are prohibited from taking actions, but Dead is not Dying.) The game relies on everyone applying some common sense regarding the concept of death.
In this instance, Gauss already stated the RAW that exists. But all of the pieces don't show up in a single place. The expectation is that the GM will put the pieces together in a sensible way. The best I can do is point you to an individual case that, I think, illustrates the RAI. Consider the Transformative Special Ability.
Transformative
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A transformative weapon alters its shape at its wielder's command, becoming any other melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness; the weapon's categorization as simple, martial, or exotic is irrelevant. For example, a Medium transformative longsword can take the shape of any other Medium one-handed melee weapon, such as a scimitar, flail, or trident, but not a Medium light or two-handed melee weapon (such as a Medium short sword or a Medium greatsword). It can even take the shape of comparable weapons of different size categories. For example, a Small greatsword is a two-handed slashing weapon for a Small character, but is a one-handed slashing weapon for a Medium character, which is very similar to a Medium longsword; a Small transformative greatsword can thus become an actual Medium longsword, usable by a Medium creature without the –2 penalty for using a weapon of the wrong size. The weapon retains all of its abilities, including enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities, except those prohibited by its current shape. For example, a keen transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. When unattended, the weapon reverts to its true shape.
Edit: Gauss ninja'd me on the dead being able to act. 8 seconds too late. :)
I guess that chunk in Transformative totally stops my argument. Thanks for showing that to me.
Nevermind then, thanks for the help.