What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?


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This is a followup from another thread discussing the martial/caster disparity and how "unrealistic" it is to for fighters to,... well, to do anything like wizards can. A comment that has come up a lot in that thread is that allowing a fighter to do anything faintly "anime" risks "turning every martial class into into weird magus/jedi/ninja/wizards" or turning a fantasy game into a superhero game.

I'm literally wondering, then, what can possibly be done. So I wish to pose a thought experiment.

Rules for the experiment:

* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.

.... but other than that, the party is not restricted in any way by the Pathfinder rules. The whole point of this experiment is to figure out what an awesome martial character looks like, feels like, and plays like. So if jumping 50' in the air is "wuxia,"or shooting bolts of lightning from your hands is "anime," you don't get to do that.

And, most importantly
* The party has to win, and win awesomely, so that everyone has a good time.

I'd like people to tell me how a truly exemplary but non-wuxia martial would win this fight, so I know what kind of mechanics would need to be supported.


What books/resources are allowed?


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I believe it cannot be done. However, I would like to see what people come up with.

That being said "too wuxia, anime, weeaboo" is a really nebulous term that I'm not sure people will be able to agree upon. Obviously, for myself nothing is "too wuxia" so I can't help contribute a definition.


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alexd1976 wrote:
What books/resources are allowed?

For the caster, all of them. RAW is law.

For the martials, none of them, since you're not confined by the rules anyway.


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I fail to see how it ever has to get that bad in the first place.

Why can't someone just be a superior strategist, who happens to be skilled with a specific armor and weapon?

Why does it ever have to go into "Weaboo" territory to begin with?


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Anzyr wrote:


That being said "too wuxia, anime, weeaboo" is a really nebulous term that I'm not sure people will be able to agree upon.

That's an issue, yes. I'm hoping the people who are throwing those terms around know what they mean (because I sure as hell don't). But if being able to leap 50' in the air is "too wuxia," I'd like to know what I can do that will take down a flying demon.


Two things of the top of my head, good anti-magic defenses and easier way to switch-hit reliably.

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Generally in stories in which martials overcome a casting big bad, they get to reflect magic (mirrored shields or whatnot) and/or play on the caster's hubris.


Soilent wrote:

I fail to see how it ever has to get that bad in the first place.

Why can't someone just be a superior strategist, who happens to be skilled with a specific armor and weapon?

Why does it ever have to go into "Weaboo" territory to begin with?

I entirely fail to see any sense, or even responsiveness, in what you wrote.

Nothing "had to get that bad." There's simply an evil 18th level caster that needs to be taken out. I'm asking how you can do it without either being a caster yourself, or by being "anime."

Scarab Sages

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A group of four Spell-Sunder Superstitious Pouncing Barbarian dispels the wizards protections and promptly murders him because unlike other martials, Barbarians actually can have nice things.


Third party materials included?

Heck, just the technology guide would do it.

haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

See where I'm going? :D

Nuke the site from orbit, only way to be sure.


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Imbicatus wrote:
A group of four Spell-Sunder Superstitious Pouncing Barbarian dispels the wizards protections and promptly murders him because unlike other martials, Barbarians actually can have nice things.

Yeah, I'd worked that out for myself. That's kind of why I suggested a party composition of a fighter, rogue, brawler, and gunslinger or skirmisher. If the only way to deal with a caster is by being a clone of a barbarian, there's something wrong.


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If we can specifically reference European Myths/Legends, does that negate otherwise claims of an action being 'too wuxia' ?


I think archer builds with leadership and the series of feats that grants animal companions would work.

Cyclonic enchantment on bows, extend the range... I mean, if the martials are assaulting, they can just snipe the bastard.


alexd1976 wrote:
Third party materials included?

How many times do I need to repeat myself?


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
If we can specifically reference European Myths/Legends, does that negate otherwise claims of an action being 'too wuxia' ?

Probably not. I've seen comparisons to both Hercules and Cuchulain being unacceptably wuxia.


One thing people often forget in the Caster vs Martial debate... it doesn't matter what spell you use, you have to roll perception to see someone who is sneaking.

Unless, of course, you have like Blindsight or Scent or something...

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Orfamay Quest wrote:


* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.

The fighter kicks the door open, and the evil wizard stands from his throne and commands his minions to attack.

The brawler intercepts the minions, dodging their blows and tossing them around the room, smashing them into pillars and getting them caught in the chandeliers. Meanwhile, the rogue jumps, rebounds off a pillar and back to the wall, and proceeds to run along it, out of reach of the minions' weapons as a few arrows bounce off the stones where he just was.

The wizard launches four rays of sickly-dark energy at the party, but the archer intercepts two of them with arrows, while the fighter bats one aside with his sword, and the brawler throws a minion into the path of the last, and it turns to dust in his grip.

The rogue reaches the wizard's throne and leaps off the wall, striking at the spellcaster from behind, but he flies right through the illusion and lands in a controlled roll, bowling down yet another minion who collapses as he discovers a dagger planted neatly in his throat.

The invisible wizard conjures a shockwave of force that sweeps the room, but the fighter plants himself firmly, and it shatters around his heavy shield. The brawler grabs a shard of force from the air and stabs it into the chest of a particularly nasty minion. The archer takes out two of the minions sent flying by their own master's spell, pinning them to the stone wall and ceiling.

The rogue closes his eyes and concentrates on the energies around him. He continues to dodge the blows of the minions around him while the archer picks them off, and he detects an extra set of footsteps not accounted for by the visible combatants. He hurls a dagger through the air, where it explodes into shimmering light as it collides with the wizard's staff. The archer takes the chance to launch a trio of arrows, which ricochet off the pillars to approach from three different angles, two of which find their target and mark his location.

The wizard chants another spell, and an enormous creature with a gaping maw rises from the flagstones right in front of the fighter, and it bites down at him. The fighter grasps its fangs and holds the creature's mouth wide open, unable to close against the fighter's force. The archer launches a pair of arrows down its throat, causing it to roar in pain, while the brawler dives into its mouth and punches straight up, piercing its skull from below and ripping its brains straight out.

Meanwhile, the wizard has taken to the air and protected itself with a wall of wind, which the archer's arrows cannot penetrate. He instead waits for the rogue to leap into the air, then fires a series of arrows for his teammate to use as stepping stones as he follows the wizard into the air. The rogue leaps through the wall of wind and grapples with the spellcaster, hanging onto him to keep from falling. The wizard channels one last desperate spell into his hand, trying to touch the rogue, but the rogue grabs his arm, twists it around, and forces the energy-laden hand into the back of the wizard's own neck, causing the flesh to melt from his body.


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alexd1976 wrote:

Third party materials included?

Heck, just the technology guide would do it.

haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

See where I'm going?

Yes. You're suggesting that the best way to resolve martial/caster disparity without wuxia is to abandon the fantasy genre entirely. You sure you want to take that step?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Third party materials included?
How many times do I need to repeat myself?

Sorry, I initially thought that I had access to NO resources, as that is what you had said.


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Quote:
The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.

OK, I'll play, but a lot of people won't like it.

I'll start with the biggest stretch, but it captures what I'm after: as classes get higher in level, their "schtick" expands accordingly.

The gunslinger, as a class, represents someone apart from time. At 1st level, his guns work for him because he carries the laws of another time and place with him; they simply misfire for anyone else. At higher levels, he is not detectable by divination spells, nor are those in his company, because the laws of magic (and physics) are different around him. This can be seen as a caster-nerf or as a magic power, but it thematically fits the Gunslinger; we're rebuilding the whole class on the 'apart from time and space' schtick, to make it broader, with more useful abilities that still don't involve him jumping miles or casting spells. In this way, the party's presence and plans don't immediately give them away; without an ability like that, everyone is automatically divination-bait, so it's a major milestone. In fact, the rogue is so sneaky that he's invisible to divinations as well, when he's on his own.

While the brawler goes to town and competes in a massive bare-knuckles boxing contest with a purse worth millions, passing off the fighter as his agent, the rogue sneaks to the tower, infiltrates the dungeons beneath it, draws a map (the player doesn't need to actually draw the map, but the character has the skill to do it), and subtly rigs the magic and mechanical traps so that he can set them off (or prevent them from being set off) almost at will, as long as he's nearby.

The fighter calls in a large army. At 17th level, he's quite probably the greatest warrior who has ever lived, and can call on large armies and navies for personal favors, exactly like John Carter could do as Warlord of Mars. The rogue is able to call in more illicit favors and get the whole army registered as itinerant friars or something, so they're able to approach the tower with less suspicion. Casting off their disguises, the army lays siege to the tower, with supporting fire from the gunslinger; at 17th level, the latter can unerringly kill targets as fast as he can point his gun and pull the trigger. Meanwhile, the army sappers move into the dungeons, with the ranger and brawler as bodyguards against the monsters that live there, and they set to work on the weak points of the foundation; the ranger is able to unerringly navigate by map, despite the direction-losing magic there, because of his uncanny excellence of tracking. He can lead them right to the points mapped by the rogue, but bypassing most of the traps and so on – those not already disabled by the rogue, who can in fact use them against the defenders! The brawler's adamantine knuckles allow him to do the work of an entire division, like John Henry the Steel-Drivin' Man. Soon, the tower collapses.

The BBEG's army and henchman spill out and wreak havoc, but the fighter has outflanked them at every turn, and at his direction, his archers are able to lay down withering fire in confined escape corridors, dealing massive, nearly unavoidable damage. Any who escape are killed by the gunslinger, brawler, and ranger. The rogue is able to move undetected through the battle, and slays the BBEG's apprentice with a death attack that bypasses all of his magical protections and so on.

The BBEG simply teleports to his private demi-plane to regroup.

Unfortunately for him, a 17th level ranger can track his quarry anywhere – even across planar boundaries. The ranger leads the party unerringly to the demi-plane, which collapses as the gunslinger enters it, because the laws of physics he carries around with him don’t support private demi-planes – he’s like the Runestaff in Moorcock’s The Vanishing Tower. The BBEG stops time, but the brawler simply ignores the effects – that’s a side effect of his intense focus in the boxing ring, and by 17th level, it’s useful across a range of other situations. The BBEG tries to dominate the brawler with a quickened spell, but the brawler again shrugs that off, and the BBEG is forced to plane shift him to Carceri.

The rogue is so sneaky that he is able to wriggle free of the time stop before anyone else. With total surprise, he stabs the BBEG, again bypassing magical protections due to the subtlety and finesse of his blow. One of the BBEG’s clones would normally awaken at this point, but alas, all of them were destroyed along with his tower and demi-plane.

The ranger leads the party into Carceri and finds the brawler, and his tracking and wilderness skills are so awesome that he is able to lead them back out, despite the fact that most mortals are trapped there forever.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Third party materials included?

Heck, just the technology guide would do it.

haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

See where I'm going?

Yes. You're suggesting that the best way to resolve martial/caster disparity without wuxia is to abandon the fantasy genre entirely. You sure you want to take that step?

To comply with the rules you set forth in your first post, what choice do I have?

This was just an angry post, not a serious one, right? I'm getting the impression you are just looking to start an argument or something...


Soilent wrote:


Usually statements like yours come with some sort of proof, you're using circular logic.

No, I'm posing a challenge.

Quote:

Casters beat martials because martials have no options, so go ahead and make a martial using no rules whatsoever,

No, make a martial using any rules you want, because I want to see what you think you need to do in order to beat a by-the-book caster.


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alexd1976 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Third party materials included?

Heck, just the technology guide would do it.

haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

See where I'm going?

Yes. You're suggesting that the best way to resolve martial/caster disparity without wuxia is to abandon the fantasy genre entirely. You sure you want to take that step?

To comply with the rules you set forth in your first post, what choice do I have?

This was just an angry post, not a serious one, right? I'm getting the impression you are just looking to start an argument or something...

He's asking you to make up rules, like Kirth did.

This is brainstorming how to make badass high level Martials [far more badass than the actual rules dictate] without causing those high level martials to be labeled as 'too wuxia' by half of the boards.

I suspect it's an exercise in futility, but it's a fun idea nonetheless.


alexd1976 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Third party materials included?

Heck, just the technology guide would do it.

haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

See where I'm going?

Yes. You're suggesting that the best way to resolve martial/caster disparity without wuxia is to abandon the fantasy genre entirely. You sure you want to take that step?
To comply with the rules you set forth in your first post, what choice do I have?

How many times do I need to repeat myself? You have literally any choice you like.


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From here on out, I'm flagging any post I see that tries to argue against the premise of this thread rather than participate in it. [Seeking clarification is cool, turning an idea thread into a debate is not.]

Scarab Sages

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Seriously, a 17th level Tetori monk can easily defeat a wizard if they win initiative, but monks are by definition "wuxia".


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Imbicatus wrote:
Seriously, a 17th level Tetori monk can easily defeat a wizard if they win initiative, but monks are by definition "wuxia".

And if they can reach the Wizard.

And if they actually grapple the Wizard rather than an illusion [or a disguised minion, or who knows what else.]


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RainyDayNinja wrote:

The fighter kicks the door open, and the evil wizard stands from his throne and commands his minions to attack.

The brawler intercepts the minions, dodging their blows and tossing them around the room, smashing them into pillars and getting them caught in the chandeliers. Meanwhile, the rogue jumps, rebounds off a pillar and back to the wall, and proceeds to run along it, out of reach of the minions' weapons as a few arrows bounce off the stones where he just was.

The wizard launches four rays of sickly-dark energy at the party, but the archer intercepts two of them with arrows, while the fighter bats one aside with his sword, and the brawler throws a minion into the path of the last, and it turns to dust in his grip.

The rogue reaches the wizard's throne and leaps off the wall, striking at the spellcaster from behind, but he flies right through the illusion and lands in a controlled roll, bowling down yet another minion who collapses as he discovers a dagger planted neatly in his throat.

The invisible wizard conjures a shockwave of force...

Awesome and I'd love to see the game play that way. Especially the rogue running up the arrows in flight, I love that image. I bet it's much too wuxia for many though.

Plus the wizard doesn't seem quite as prepared as the average 17th level Schrodinger's wizard usually is.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
If we can specifically reference European Myths/Legends, does that negate otherwise claims of an action being 'too wuxia' ?

Can I ask the same question with regard to characters from the Mahabharata? Mind you, it's hard to judge the level of Arjuna, for one. Apart from really, really high.

Still, a starting contender for the party. Beowulf. Encounters a creature invulnerable to his weapons. Rips it's arm off and sends it fleeing to it's home where it bleeds to death. Swims to the bottom off a lake fighting sea monsters all the way and kills the creatures mother. Takes on a dragon with just one of his men with him, and gives it a death wound while dying of poison. And lost a swimming race across the Kattegat.


I've been saying it in other threads, I will say it here:

Remove Rogue from the game.

Slap the class onto any non-caster using Gestalt rules.

Bump saves to good across the board.

BAB +6 grants full attack as a move action.
12 levels in non-caster grant fastheal 1

So this would result in a class that has the saves of a monk, the BAB of a fighter, sneak attack and rogue abilities, extra feats as per fighter and so on.

If melee, Outflank is GREAT. I don't normally do teamwork feats, but for this, yes.

Pair that with Precise Strike (extra D6 when flanking, okay).

Give all of them Leadership, and the three feats to grant them an animal companion (They all could have this by level 9). All the followers can be... whatever, damage sponges? Archers with Cyclonic bows?

All the animal companions have Outflank and Precise Strike as well.

If they get this guy in melee, he is getting chopped to pieces.

If they don't, he is getting filled with arrows from the +5 cyclonic flaming blah blah blah bows.

No stupid anime stuff, just lots and lots of people. Unless you want to put more restrictions on this.

Four characters CAN have four followers PLUS four animal companions.


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Bluenose wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
If we can specifically reference European Myths/Legends, does that negate otherwise claims of an action being 'too wuxia' ?
Can I ask the same question with regard to characters from the Mahabharata? Mind you, it's hard to judge the level of Arjuna, for one. Apart from really, really high.

Same answer -- probably not. What defines "wuxia" seems to be feel rather than the actual source. If you want an alternative definition, anything that looks like a move out of a superhero comic is probably right out (until someone provides a more complete and comprehensive definition).

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thejeff wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:

The fighter kicks the door open, and the evil wizard stands from his throne and commands his minions to attack.

The brawler intercepts the minions, dodging their blows and tossing them around the room, smashing them into pillars and getting them caught in the chandeliers. Meanwhile, the rogue jumps, rebounds off a pillar and back to the wall, and proceeds to run along it, out of reach of the minions' weapons as a few arrows bounce off the stones where he just was.

The wizard launches four rays of sickly-dark energy at the party, but the archer intercepts two of them with arrows, while the fighter bats one aside with his sword, and the brawler throws a minion into the path of the last, and it turns to dust in his grip.

The rogue reaches the wizard's throne and leaps off the wall, striking at the spellcaster from behind, but he flies right through the illusion and lands in a controlled roll, bowling down yet another minion who collapses as he discovers a dagger planted neatly in his throat.

The invisible wizard conjures a shockwave of force...

Awesome and I'd love to see the game play that way. Especially the rogue running up the arrows in flight, I love that image. I bet it's much too wuxia for many though.

Plus the wizard doesn't seem quite as prepared as the average 17th level Schrodinger's wizard usually is.

True, but I don't have any experience running casters that high-level. So mine is probably more like a level 11 party against a level 12 wizard. Kirth's is better, but I was 2 minutes faster; you have to make trade-offs, you know.


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The short answer is "by shooting/stabbing/crushing" the caster to death.

If your basic set up is that the caster has infinite resources because the GM refuses to reign in badly written spells (hello simulacrum!), while the martials aren't even allowed basic magic items, then the exercise is pointless to begin with.

If a bunch of gearless hobos show up to assault a fortress, they SHOULD lose.

(For what it's worth, a caster that isn't allowed gear isn't going to win against a similar caster with infinite resources, either =P)


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alexd1976 wrote:


haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...

You'd assume incorrectly.


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For the gunslinger, more special ammo that would allow for anti caster rounds of some sort or at least flash-bang like effects to make concentration checks from a caster opponent very difficult would be neat.

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