Player Insanity in PFS?


GM Discussion

1/5

I'm running a table next week, and one of the enemies has an ability that can give an unlucky player or players a random insanity. I haven't been able to find anything that explains how this would work in PFS, since the cure can take weeks.

I don't mind driving my players insane, but I want to make sure I'm not doing something against PFS rules.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 ****

Well:

Madness wrote:

Curing Insanity:

All insanities have a DC that represents the insanity’s strength. An insanity’s DC indicates the Will save you need to roll in order to resist contracting the insanity when you are initially exposed to it, but also the DC you need to make to recover. Recovering from an insanity naturally is a lengthy process—once per week, you make a Will save against the insanity’s current DC. If you succeed on this save, the insanity’s DC is reduced by a number of points equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum of 1). You continue to suffer the full effects of the insanity until its DC is reduced to 0, at which point you are cured and the insanity vanishes completely.

Lesser restoration has no effect on insanity, but restoration reduces the current DC of one insanity currently affecting a target by an amount equal to the caster’s level. Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.

So, in the same way that a disease which doesn't kill you (i.e. a non-Con-damaging one) can effectively be hand-waived as automatically being fixed between scenarios (because there is no set period of 'down-time' between scenarios), I would say this sort of insanity can be as well. Alternately, just pay for a Heal spell.

1/5

Hmmm, I guess I thought it might be different from how disease is treated because the DC is once a week, not once a day. But probably simplest to hand wave, if less interesting.

A Heal spell would certainly work, I didn't know that it treated so many different things.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Technically, you *should* roll it out, if you have time.

Practically, you can probably handwave it.

5/5 5/5 *

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"Player insanity" and "PC insanity" are two entirely different things and a distinction that probably matters here.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Luke Parry wrote:

Well:

Madness wrote:

Curing Insanity:

All insanities have a DC that represents the insanity’s strength. An insanity’s DC indicates the Will save you need to roll in order to resist contracting the insanity when you are initially exposed to it, but also the DC you need to make to recover. Recovering from an insanity naturally is a lengthy process—once per week, you make a Will save against the insanity’s current DC. If you succeed on this save, the insanity’s DC is reduced by a number of points equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum of 1). You continue to suffer the full effects of the insanity until its DC is reduced to 0, at which point you are cured and the insanity vanishes completely.

Lesser restoration has no effect on insanity, but restoration reduces the current DC of one insanity currently affecting a target by an amount equal to the caster’s level. Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.

So, in the same way that a disease which doesn't kill you (i.e. a non-Con-damaging one) can effectively be hand-waived as automatically being fixed between scenarios (because there is no set period of 'down-time' between scenarios), I would say this sort of insanity can be as well. Alternately, just pay for a Heal spell.

Non Con damaging diseases cannot be handwaved. The Guide makes it clear that it must be resolved.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

The only one of those insanities that can lead to character retirement is Psychosis, which makes your character temporarily Chaotic Evil. None of them get progressively worse, so it is not unreasonable to simply say the character eventually succeeds at the saves (much like taking 20 on a skill check) and recovers.

In the case of Psychosis, if the character receives a benefit or has an ability that would be lost by becoming CE, I would probably require an Atonement, but otherwise I think that once the scenario is over it is safe to simply say the insanity eventually recovers and the character can resume play.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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The only thing I'd say about handwaving diseases and insanities, is that those things are included as part of monsters and helps create that monster's CR. If you handwaved it due to the nature of organized play, then you are negating that part of the challenge. As such it needs to be resolved before the chronicle is handed out.

And if there isn't time, then some gold needs to be spent on remove disease (or whatever works on insanity.)

It's part of the challenge and if no resolution is required, then that aspect of the challenge is nullified.

If there is a cleric with the group, then I'll handwaved it, under the assumption that they have the spells to resolve eventually.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 ****

Agreed, the diseases are a condition (like most conditions) that do need to be resolved by the end of the scenario.

However, I am not suggesting that they should be hand-waived full-stop, but only at the end of the scenario. If you have managed to get to the end of the scenario, with a few specific exceptions, the only diseases that can actually kill you, are the ones that deal Constitution damage.

For all (most) of the others, even if they have reduced an ability to zero, once outside the bounds of a scenario, there is (effectively) no penalty for this - even if you are paralysed (Strength zero), eventually, you will roll enough successful Fortitude saves to cure the disease, and then the damage that it has caused can be healed naturally.

To put it another way, say you contracted Devil Chills or Red Ache (both of which deal Strength damage). Once you reach the end of the scenario (having suffered the effects of the disease throughout the scenario), there is no penalty for continuing to fail Fort saves (apart from being reduced to Strength zero) - eventually, you will pass enough Fort saves to cure the diseases, and then you heal naturally. Resolution of such a disease can, effectively, be hand-waived (effectively 'taking 20' on your Fort save - yes, I know that is not actually a thing).

However, for something like Blinding Sickness (which says that if you take enough Strength damage, you will be permanently blinded), since it can actually have a permanent effect (i.e., blinding you), you can't hand-waive that - you need to resolve whether or not it blinds you.

Similarly, for something like Filth Fever, which does Dex and Con damage, since the Con damage can actually kill you (if you hit Con zero), that also needs to be specifically resolved, and not glossed over.

(This is the last comment that I will make on this thread.)

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Luke Parry wrote:


For all (most) of the others, even if they have reduced an ability to zero, once outside the bounds of a scenario, there is (effectively) no penalty for this - even if you are paralysed (Strength zero), eventually, you will roll enough successful Fortitude saves to cure the disease, and then the damage that it has caused can be healed naturally.

Well, if you are paralyzed long enough, unless someone has enough heal to nurse you through it, aren't you going to starve?

I think there is a vanity that lets you rest as if you had medical care, but short of that, I think there might be a real concern.

5/5 *****

FLite wrote:

Well, if you are paralyzed long enough, unless someone has enough heal to nurse you through it, aren't you going to starve?

I think there is a vanity that lets you rest as if you had medical care, but short of that, I think there might be a real concern.

That might be relevant if you are left behind by the rest of the group but that doesn't seem very likely.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

I suppose you could just say "the party feeds you and waters you" but I would have expected that to require some sort of heal check.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Luke Parry wrote:

Agreed, the diseases are a condition (like most conditions) that do need to be resolved by the end of the scenario.

However, I am not suggesting that they should be hand-waived full-stop, but only at the end of the scenario. If you have managed to get to the end of the scenario, with a few specific exceptions, the only diseases that can actually kill you, are the ones that deal Constitution damage.

For all (most) of the others, even if they have reduced an ability to zero, once outside the bounds of a scenario, there is (effectively) no penalty for this - even if you are paralysed (Strength zero), eventually, you will roll enough successful Fortitude saves to cure the disease, and then the damage that it has caused can be healed naturally.

To put it another way, say you contracted Devil Chills or Red Ache (both of which deal Strength damage). Once you reach the end of the scenario (having suffered the effects of the disease throughout the scenario), there is no penalty for continuing to fail Fort saves (apart from being reduced to Strength zero) - eventually, you will pass enough Fort saves to cure the diseases, and then you heal naturally. Resolution of such a disease can, effectively, be hand-waived (effectively 'taking 20' on your Fort save - yes, I know that is not actually a thing).

However, for something like Blinding Sickness (which says that if you take enough Strength damage, you will be permanently blinded), since it can actually have a permanent effect (i.e., blinding you), you can't hand-waive that - you need to resolve whether or not it blinds you.

Similarly, for something like Filth Fever, which does Dex and Con damage, since the Con damage can actually kill you (if you hit Con zero), that also needs to be specifically resolved, and not glossed over.

(This is the last comment that I will make on this thread.)

If you don't require them to at least pay the cost for a remove disease, then the disease has zero effect, and thus its challenge is nothing. And the challenge of a disease should not be nothing.

And sorry, but a non-con ability score going to zero isn't meaningless. You go into a coma and can easily die of starvation or dehydration, even if you have someone caring for you.

And the guide to organized play specifically says these things should be resolved before the end of a scenario. Which means you should actually resolve it. And if time is short, and you can't wait for a poor rolling PC to roll another 100 times, then the purchase of spell casting may be necessary to enforce.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

FLite wrote:
I suppose you could just say "the party feeds you and waters you" but I would have expected that to require some sort of heal check.

Coma patients die all the time,while under the best health care in the world. And they often die of blood poisoning, infection, or dehydration as complications of the reason they are in a coma. And this happens even when being watered and fed by a nurse.

So non-con diseases should be resolved.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Andrew Christian wrote:
FLite wrote:
I suppose you could just say "the party feeds you and waters you" but I would have expected that to require some sort of heal check.

Coma patients die all the time,while under the best health care in the world. And they often die of blood poisoning, infection, or dehydration as complications of the reason they are in a coma. And this happens even when being watered and fed by a nurse.

So non-con diseases should be resolved.

I agree, but beyond the long term care rules for the heal skill, and the starvation rules, I can't really find any rules for this. (The heal long term care rules aren't quite apropos, but they are the closest I could find.)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

As a GM, when the rules aren't definitive, you get to use common sense to rule how something should work.

The guide is quite clear, that conditions need to be cleared.

5/5 *****

Andrew Christian wrote:

As a GM, when the rules aren't definitive, you get to use common sense to rule how something should work.

The guide is quite clear, that conditions need to be cleared.

And time between scenarios is indefinite so if you are dealing with a disease which cannot on its own kill you and you have people around to look after you then you will eventually make the saves to get rid of it.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Andrew, the problem is, the disease can kill. If a stat reaches zero, you become helpless, if you stay helpless more than a day you start starving. Theoretically, it seems like your friends would be able to make a heal check to feed you soup and water to keep you alive, but there is no dc listed for it. It is probably either DC 15 or DC 20. (long term care or treat disease)

Silver Crusade 5/5

FLite wrote:
Andrew, the problem is, the disease can kill. If a stat reaches zero, you become helpless, if you stay helpless more than a day you start starving. Theoretically, it seems like your friends would be able to make a heal check to feed you soup and water to keep you alive, but there is no dc listed for it. It is probably either DC 15 or DC 20. (long term care or treat disease)

That seems needlessly nitpicky. It hasn't come up much with me for the most part, since most players at my tables make their fort save, though I did have somebody succumb to mummy rot on the way back to civilization at the end of Risen from the Sands.

In cases where a PC has a disease that doesn't deal Con damage, I am inclined to give them the chance to make the rolls to cure themselves or pay for the remove disease.
If there is a situation where the table has to be vacated in a hurry like at a con (or any other appropriate example) I'd be inclined to hand wave the disease as long as the disease doesn't do con damage or otherwise impart lasting conditions. That is, provided the players aren't the reason we have to wrap up in a hurry.

5/5 *****

FLite wrote:
Andrew, the problem is, the disease can kill. If a stat reaches zero, you become helpless, if you stay helpless more than a day you start starving. Theoretically, it seems like your friends would be able to make a heal check to feed you soup and water to keep you alive, but there is no dc listed for it. It is probably either DC 15 or DC 20. (long term care or treat disease)

It takes a full round action to feed an unconscious character a potion in the midst of combat. Are you suggesting it is harder to feed someone a bowl of soup in the comfort of the Grand Lodge?

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Yup. I am.

Given how hard it is in real life to keep someone in a coma alive.

Do you know what and how much to go into the soup? And how often to feed them so you don't choke them? Remember, the potion is magic and just has to go into their body, and is a few ounces, small enough to drink in under 3 seconds. The food has to be digested by a body that doesn't even have enough energy to move, so it has to be chosen from foods that are easily digestible. It is probably several bowls. And I doubt Pathfinder has sterile IVs.

I'm not saying it is extremely hard. I would be inclined to go with the DC 15. But how often have you seen a party fail DC 15 heal checks in a scenario?

3/5 5/5

Picquilarius wrote:

I'm running a table next week, and one of the enemies has an ability that can give an unlucky player or players a random insanity. I haven't been able to find anything that explains how this would work in PFS, since the cure can take weeks.

I don't mind driving my players insane, but I want to make sure I'm not doing something against PFS rules.

If the player's character fails the save, ask him "UMadBro?" XD

If the player goes insane...put the scenario down and run for the door.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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What if the gm is insane?

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If the disease doesn't have the chance of killing the character on its own, clear the disease at the end of the scenario, however you deem appropriate. In most cases, I simply clear the disease without any further consideration.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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Picquilarius wrote:

I'm running a table next week, and one of the enemies has an ability that can give an unlucky player or players a random insanity. I haven't been able to find anything that explains how this would work in PFS, since the cure can take weeks.

I don't mind driving my players insane, but I want to make sure I'm not doing something against PFS rules.

You can give your players insanity? Isn't that the status quo amongst gamers already?

Hmm

Sovereign Court

FLite wrote:

Yup. I am.

Given how hard it is in real life to keep someone in a coma alive.

Because Pathfinder is all about simulating real life situations?

By your logic you should just kill anyone who falls more than 50ft or so instead of rolling for damage.

Dark Archive

Exponential dice (just for my amusement)
10' d6
20' 10d6
30' 100 d6
40' 1000 d6
50' 10k d6

5/5 5/55/5

Reading the title of this thread I was thinking it was about a player was insane and sitting at the table and how as a GM or organizer you would handle it. I guess this came to mind because something very similar just happened to me 2 weeks ago. And I have been beating myself up thinking about the best way to have handled it.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Let me ressurect the dead thread with new questions:

Via PRD:

In-game, a person has a chance of going insane every time he suffers a tremendous shock to one of his mental ability scores—Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. Every time a creature is reduced to a score of 0 in one of these scores, there's a chance he goes insane. (Note: Wisdom damage is particularly likely to cause insanity, since a 0 Wisdom score imparts a –5 penalty on all Will saves.)

So, for example, my Wis 10 fighter meets Wis-damaging poison and is down.

Should I, as GM roll his insanity check & Will save?
Should I, note his character dead if he fails check vs. PSYCHOSIS
Should player pay his resources to get rid of this condition or can I mark "Amnesia" on his chronicle?

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Aleksandrs Zdancuks wrote:

In-game, a person has a chance of going insane every time he suffers a tremendous shock to one of his mental ability scores—Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. Every time a creature is reduced to a score of 0 in one of these scores, there's a chance he goes insane. (Note: Wisdom damage is particularly likely to cause insanity, since a 0 Wisdom score imparts a –5 penalty on all Will saves.)

So, for example, my Wis 10 fighter meets Wis-damaging poison and is down.

Should I, as GM roll his insanity check & Will save?

Yes, but explain to the player what you are doing. This is a very rarely used rule so most players will not be familiar with it. Especially if the player has a reroll to be used ask under what conditions they want you to reroll (the final result is 15 or less, etc.).

Quote:
Should I, note his character dead if he fails check vs. PSYCHOSIS?

Only if he cannot remove the psychosis by the end of the session. The alignment change is just like any other involuntary move to an evil alignment, it must be cleared by the end of the scenario but is not instantly fatal.

Quote:
Should player pay his resources to get rid of this condition or can I mark "Amnesia" on his chronicle?

He needs to get rid of it or be marked as "dead"

Guide to Organized Play page 23 wrote:
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’

5/5 5/55/55/5

Aleksandrs Zdancuks wrote:


So, for example, my Wis 10 fighter meets Wis-damaging poison and is down.

Should I, as GM roll his insanity check & Will save?
Should I, note his character dead if he fails check vs. PSYCHOSIS
Should player pay his resources to get rid of this condition or can I mark "Amnesia" on his chronicle?

No.

This is an optional rule not on the additional resources list. Unless the scenario specifically brings it up you should leave that subsystem alone.

3/5 5/5

A player's insanity is not a matter for a GM to handle, whether or not he is playing in PFS.

Please refer the player to a qualified psychiatrist as soon as possible.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aleksandrs Zdancuks wrote:


So, for example, my Wis 10 fighter meets Wis-damaging poison and is down.

Should I, as GM roll his insanity check & Will save?
Should I, note his character dead if he fails check vs. PSYCHOSIS
Should player pay his resources to get rid of this condition or can I mark "Amnesia" on his chronicle?

No.

This is an optional rule not on the additional resources list. Unless the scenario specifically brings it up you should leave that subsystem alone.

The Additional Resources list for the Core Rulebook is exclusive, not inclusive. Unless it is specifically cited as not to be used it is a part of the game. So yes, you should use this rule.

Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play wrote:
Unless noted otherwise in this guide, everything contained in the Core Rulebook (except artifacts, evil items, and intelligent items) is legal for Pathfinder Society play.

edit: Just realized insanity actually appears in the GameMastery Guide, not the CRB. The rules for using material from the GMG have always been a bit hazy on the GM side. I'd say it's up to the GM's discretion.

Example of what happens if GM's can't use the GMG:
I've seen players claim it is impossible to get drunk in PFS. It's a neat piece of circular logic.
1. If a situation comes up that isn't covered in the rules the GM should improvise.
2. There are rules for drunkenness in the GMG
3. Nothing in the GMG is legal for play.
4. The GM can't make something up for getting drunk because the rule exists, but the GM can't use the GameMastery Guide because it isn't legal for play.
5. Player (with abilities keying off drinking) carries a 2 gallon keg of 150 proof alcohol on his back and takes a sip every few rounds. No negative effects.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would say that unless the scenario calls for the character to suffer an insanity, the GM should not take it upon themselves to inflict one. We do not let GMs add other alternate rules systems to scenarios as they please, so I don't consider this any different.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Quote:
Player (with abilities keying off drinking) carries a 2 gallon keg of 150 proof alcohol on his back and takes a sip every few rounds. No negative effects.

Is that unusual?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

The GMG is a grey area. The rules for haunts and chases see some use, as do the settlement rules. But it's not part of the core assumption. All in all I wouldn't "volunteer" to use its rules unless the scenario calls for them.

5/5 *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
This is an optional rule not on the additional resources list. Unless the scenario specifically brings it up you should leave that subsystem alone.

Additional Resources is a limitation on material available for players to use, not GM's.

Having said that I wouldn't add an insanity subsystem in unless something within the scenario called for insanity to be an option. Even then I am struggling to see a situation where you would need to use it.

For example, a somewhat infamous season 5 adventure has the potential to see PCs go permanently insane but the mechanics for it are within the monster stat block, although it does direct you to the GMG.

5/5 5/55/55/5

andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
This is an optional rule not on the additional resources list. Unless the scenario specifically brings it up you should leave that subsystem alone.
Additional Resources is a limitation on material available for players to use, not GM's.

So i can use called shots on my players?

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