Shouldn't Renown affect much larger groups of people at the highest level?


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


By highest level I mean 18 to 20.

I mean really, The Batman is known throughout the world in DC. Heck even people on other planets have heard of Batman. Especially once he joins the Justice League. By that point he should be about 20th level.

For PC's, level 20 should be when they're known by beings from other planes.
This is the level where wizards are calling down 18HD outsiders to do the laundry, clerics are calling up their deity's avatar for a chat, fighters are taking on armies for their morning workout, etc...

But the Vigilante is only known/feared/admired by small city or two?

Yes I know this isn't a major problem. It's just something that's been bothering me all morning...


Batman lives in a setting with a global communication network. Golarion isn't the case, nor most fantasy settings.

If level 20 PCs are well known in your setting, then a Level 20 vigilante PC is also well known by default unless for some reason the GM thinks the vigilante is less well known arbitrarily because the vigilante has a class bonus for fame that's less than his own expectations for PCs? No. The vigilante is better regarded/feared in certain communities in addition to the GM's default fame rules/expectations for the rest of the characters globally.


So you're saying "It's ok because the GM can houserule it"?

Also, knowledge is disseminated in a fantasy world much easier than it would have been in our world back in medieval times. Wizards and clerics keep in contact through magic, governments do the same, stories travel with bards and merchants.

To use some old campaign settings, everyone in Faerun has heard of Elminster or Sammaster, everyone in Greyhawk knows about Mordekainen or Rary and even in Eberron, ordinary people have access to "broadsheets" with news from across the continent.

Even on Golarion, pathfinders travel extensively and often communicate magically. It would be more surprising to find out people DIDN'T get at least semi regular news about goings on elsewhere.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Also, knowledge is disseminated in a fantasy world much easier than it would have been in our world back in medieval times. Wizards and clerics keep in contact through magic, governments do the same, stories travel with bards and merchants.

To use some old campaign settings, everyone in Faerun has heard of Elminster or Sammaster, everyone in Greyhawk knows about Mordekainen or Rary and even in Eberron, ordinary people have access to "broadsheets" with news from across the continent.

Even on Golarion, pathfinders travel extensively and often communicate magically. It would be more surprising to find out people DIDN'T get at least semi regular news about goings on elsewhere.

All that is still happening. For ALL Characters. The vigilante just gets extra benefits other characters don't by focusing on an area.


I'm not saying houserule it.

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

For PC's, level 20 should be when they're known by beings from other planes.

This is the level where wizards are calling down 18HD outsiders to do the laundry, clerics are calling up their deity's avatar for a chat, fighters are taking on armies for their morning workout, etc...

That's the houserule.

Nothing in the rules state level 20 anything is known worldwide. That's subjective to the GM. The vigilante simply has a class mechanic for communities that he focuses on, ON TOP of whatever the GM would be granting his players at whatever level that he'd be inclined to give out simply because of their level or actions.

Sovereign Court

Well I'd point out that in the existing rules a PC of 11th level qualifies to be important enough for the Legend Lore spell to find out about them.


Morgen wrote:
Well I'd point out that in the existing rules a PC of 11th level qualifies to be important enough for the Legend Lore spell to find out about them.

Oh that's a good point! ALWAYS forget about that spell. So for level 11 vigilante, he'd be considered legendary, just like every other level 11 PC, but he'd also be especially feared/respected (+6 Intimidate bonus) within 11 miles of a 5000-individual community or two 2000-individual community which could be spaced a decent distance apart for pretty good coverage of that intimidate bonus.

In those specific communities though, his social identity has a great advantage dealing with 5000-individuals or two 2000-individuals community groups as they'd have a better starting attitude to the social identity. Which other PCs don't get by default. But if a GM is already starting every NPC as friendly (instead of indifferent) for his level 11 players, the vigilante's social identity gets to have them start off as helpful, one higher than the default GM granted bonus to his players.

Dark Archive

Batman is by no means 20th level. Hes just seems that powerful because its a low level setting and the things he fights would be impossible for basic police and citizens because they are at most lvl 1-3. Batman is probably lvl 6-8 at most but with advanced template for stats.

Its the same way people call Strider from lord of the rings a lvl 20 fighter or ranger, hes by no means lvl 20 he is at most level 5, but they are only fighting CR 1/2 to CR 1 orcs the entire movie.

Either way to the point at hand, with magic and the ability to teleport not just across distances on the planet but between planets and other planes of existence news would travel fast especially for high renown characters, even more so for a party of multiple high renown characters, compare them to that of highly popular musical bands or groups. everyone gets word when they are coming through town or going to be near by even if you don't really care.


So, I kind of agree with this sentiment, though.

The majority of the play of the game happens between levels 1-14 or so. It's important for a player to see significant growth. I don't see why it shouldn't be:
Level 3: Small Town: (200 people)
Level 5: Town: (1,000 people)
Level 7: City: (5,000 people)
Level 9: Large City (25,000)
Level 11: Another Large City - one additional Large City and/or surrounding area per 2 levels.

I mean, is there something broken about people being scared of your reputation and for you to be well known?


Well the intimidate bonus applies by a radius of miles (= vigilante levels) from the community (no matter what the size of population is). So, for example, a level 5 vigilante placing his 200-individual community (really a neighbourhood at that point) somewhere in the Coins district ,or other central district of Absalom, he'd have a +4 circumstance bonus to his intimidate modifier for practically EVERYONE in Absalom (because the 5 mile radius covers almost the whole city).

The level 5 social identity would only gain a bonus with that 200-person neighbourhood though. And that makes sense as the identity is someone of polite society that doesn't necessarily make a fuss or shakes things up THAT much. Plus the bonus is NPCs' starting attitude is one better for the social identity.

At higher levels, exactly how well known is the social identity supposed to be when you're trying to maintain separate lives from your vigilante identity. Who wants to advertise they're a HIGH level "NPC" when there's a high level vigilante PC traipsing about? So not an ENTIRE city knowing and liking the social identity by default makes somewhat sense.

Though I can understand why the social identity bonus could use some improvement, either affecting more people or more communities at higher levels, the range of the vigilante bonus works for me as is.

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