I've had a situation come up in WotR where my character encountered the henchman Blackfire Adept. I summoned a servitor demon Demonling, which I failed the combat check against. I took the damage and then randomly moved to a different location.
Do I still make the check to defeat against the Blackfire Adept? I'm guessing not, and that the Blackfire Adept gets shuffled back into the original location, but I'm a little unsure.
Read what the cards say. For Blackfire Adept, it says that if the demon was not defeated, the Blackfire Adept is undefeated. This means failing against the Demonling will automatically have the Blackfire Adept be undefeated (and thus shuffled back into its location deck) before you make any rolls against it. You still activate its "If undefeated" power so you will lose 1-2 blessings off the top of the blessings deck.
For the sake of explanation, if the Blackfire Adept did not have the line "If the demon is not defeated, the Blackfire Adept is undefeated." then the encounter would continue despite you being at a different location. You'd still assemble and roll your dice as normal, and if you beat it you'd get a chance to permanently close the location the Blackfire Adept is at even though you aren't at that location.
Glancing at the Blackfire Adept, while she IS defeated before you roll any dice if you don't beat the Demonling, you'll still have to roll those decide for the purpose of determining damage/no damage before she goes back into the deck.
There is no rule that says you can't continue an encounter just because you are no longer at the location. Likewise, there is no rule that says the encounter is over just because she is undefeated if you fail to defeat the monster. Dave is exactly right. You still go through with the encounter, but she will be shuffled back into her deck afterwards even if you do win.
OK so if I fail the check against the demonling, I move randomly (possibly to the same location), continue to make a check against the Adept, but regardless of the result of that check, she is undefeated anyway and gets shuffled back in. I think I got it :p
Thanks
A little sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I couldn't find anything else about this anywhere else online.
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I want to disagree with Vic Wertz.
The rulebook says on page 11 "If you succeed at all the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don't succeed, it is undefeated - shuffle the card back into its location deck."
"if you don't succeed, it is undefeated". This says very clearly, I think, that "undefeated" is *defined* as having failed at a check to defeat a bane. Being "undefeated" is a part of resolving the encounter, and results in shuffling it back into its location deck.
(I couldn't find any other references in the rule book which might define what it means to be "undefeated")
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Blackfire Adept states "If the demon is not defeated, the Blackfire Adept is undefeated." It is undefeated. You have failed the check to defeat it. You immediately resolve the encounter and shuffle it back into its location deck.
I believe that if you still needed to fight the Blackfire Adept after losing to the Demonling, then the Blackfire Adept's power should be re-worded to: "If the demon is not defeated, the Blackfire Adept cannot be defeated." This would mean that, even if you succeed at the combat check, you still fail and the Blackfire Adept is undefeated. The "If undefeated" effect also activates.
(Note that regardless, you can never evade he blackfire adept after failing to defeat the Demonling as "Apply Any Evasion Effects" occurs before "Apply Any Effects That Happen Before You Act")
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What this ultimately means, I think, is that players will have to defeat the demon before they can defeat the blackfire adept. Losing to (or evading!) the demon will mean the blackfire adept is undefeated. If you lose to the demon and take damage, you do not fight (and potentially take more damage from) the blackfire adept.
Losing to the Demonling will move you to a random location, which does NOT affect the encounter directly; if the Blackfire Adept didn't have the power, you would still have to fight it after being moved.
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The only difference I am pushing for here is that you would have to fight the Blackfire Adept after the Demonling, resulting in the potential for more damage.
You are required to attempt checks to defeat banes. It being declared undefeated does not remove this requirement (there is no rule that states this). Being undefeated is a state of the encounter; you can have undefeated cards that have zero checks to defeat. As such, defeated or undefeated is not intrinsically tied into the check result. The check results let you know if it is defeated or undefeated normally, but it might be defeated or undefeated by other rules as well (contrary to what your checks were).
In other words, Vic is correct. You fight the Adept 100% of the time unless you evade it. If you fail to defeat the Demonling, you still fight Blackfire Adept even though it's a lost cause. You still might take a bit more damage though.
IphStich, your interpretation is somewhat reasonable but that doesn't make it correct. And if something is ambiguous then whatever Vic says is right by virtue of him having said it. Vic can only be wrong if Vic is not logically consistent or not self-consistent (or changes his mind of course).
And he's quite self-consistent here. All effects that causes a bane to be undefeated still require you to make the check. It's the same with a ghost and no magic trait, it's the same with undead at the location where you roll a d6 and they're undefeated on a 1, it's the same on this hench[wo]man.
In terms of your specific argument, I would say that the rulebook does not "define" the word undefeated at all. It's a word that already exists. The rulebook just tells you one way a bane might become undefeated, and what to do after the check if a bane is undefeated.
Alright. I guess that makes sense...
Thanks :)
Hmmm....
In regards to the moving in the middle of the encounter...
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h4#v5748eaic9usn
"I was moved in the middle of an encounter, and a bunch of things were going to happen after the encounter. Do they happen at my old location, or at my new location?"
"They don't happen at all."
"Resolution: On page 11 of the rulebook, under Resolve the Encounter, add the following sentence: "If you move during an encounter, any effects that would happen after that encounter do not happen.""
Wouldn't "Attempting The Check" happen after the encounter?
If it doesn't count as a thing happening after the encounter, can I ask why?
Thanks again. Sorry, I'm new to this and the rules can be kinda confusing at first.
Being undefeated is a state of the encounter; you can have undefeated cards that have zero checks to defeat. As such, defeated or undefeated is not intrinsically tied into the check result.
Apparently, it's not even tied to being IN an encounter...
@IphStich I think you are misunderstanding how an encounter works.
Looking at the Mummy's Mask rulebook, these are the steps of an encounter:
Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card
Apply Any Evasion Effects
Apply Any Effects That Happen Before You Act
Attempt the Check
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed
Apply Any Effects That Happen After You Act
Resolve the Encounter
The encounter is the whole thing. Attempting the Check is in the middle of the encounter.
The FAQ you cite (a Wrath of the Righteous FAQ) talks about effects what would happen after the encounter. Those don't happen if you are moved in the middle of an encounter. But the encounter itself still happens.(Note we unfortunately have historical equivocal terminology: "after the encounter" in Rise of the Runelords actually means during "After You Act". In all other sets, "after the encounter" means after "Resolve the Encounter". That's why it is important the FAQ is from WotR, so we can be sure it really applies to after the encounter is done, even in regards to RotR.)
Referring to your original questions: you don't shuffle the Blackfire Adept into the deck as soon as you fail to defeat the Demonling, because the instruction about what to when a monster is undefeated is in the Resolve the Encounter step, and the Demonling check is in the Before You Act step. You have to go through all the steps before you get to Resolve the Encounter.
The FAQ you cite (a Wrath of the Righteous FAQ) talks about effects what would happen after the encounter. Those don't happen if you are moved in the middle of an encounter. But the encounter itself still happens.
Аctually, this might be a good opportunity for Vic & co to clear up what this FAQ is actually supposed to do; on my table, me included, there's a big deal of confusion about it's effect.
For example, if we had a scenario power "After you encounter a henchman, you're dealt 1d4 Fire damage" - I'm pretty sure that's still supposed to happen, even if you moved (as even pre-FAQ it causes no issues that I can see)
Back when the FAQ was issued, I'm pretty sure there was a specific case about it, but I can't identify the thread. Either way, I think the FAQ's wording is rather...sub-optimal, and can use a bit of polishing and clearing up as to what "effects that happen after the encounter" is, in a way that doesn't cast such a wide net as it currently does. IMHO.
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With regards to IphStich's post, this is pretty much how it goes:
- encounter the Adept (or whatever) - Encounter 1
- go through Encounter 1 BYA step
=> you summon Sloth Demon (or whatever), this immediately starts Encounter 2
=> do Encounter 2 BYA
=> do Encounter 2 check
=> do Encounter 2 AYA
=> resolve Encounter 2: Defeated/Undefeated
=> apply any Defeated/Undefeated effects
=> apply any "After the encounter" effects (skip this if you moved, pre the current FAQ)
- You now resume your Encounter 1 and continue going through its steps
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Example powers that are blocked by that FAQ:
If defeated, you may explore your location.
If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from. (If you move, this one is blocked by another rule as well)
While defeated/undefeated is determined in Resolve the Encounter, the explore ore close attempt don't happen until after the encounter is over. As such, that FAQ blocks them from happening entirely. I'm sure the thread that generated the FAQ has another example if anyone can dig it up.
Example powers that are blocked by that FAQ:
If defeated, you may explore your location.
If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from. (If you move, this one is blocked by another rule as well)While defeated/undefeated is determined in Resolve the Encounter, the explore ore close attempt don't happen until after the encounter is over. As such, that FAQ blocks them from happening entirely. I'm sure the thread that generated the FAQ has another example if anyone can dig it up.
Thanks, Skizzers. I believe one of the two was the reason, and -if memory serves- it had something to do with the Blackburg scenarios in WotR (a search for 'Blackburg' didn't turn up anything useful though).
See, I'm not even going to argue with the two examples you give, I agree they're *probably* fall under what's intended to be covered by the FAQ - but the fact is, it would've never occurred to me that they are, given the FAQ/you example powers' wording.
EDIT: Hah, found it! In a thread by you, no less :D And, wouldn't you know it, we also have a pending "I'll get back to you" by Vic... who also says the FAQ was intended to address a situation other than the one in the linked thread - what situation that is (the one raised by Obsidian) remains a mystery.
Ah, yeah, my memory was a bit fuzzy. I guess such powers are still pending clarification, so I have no idea what that FAQ is supposed to be addressing. I also agree that your example you would dodge the 1d4 Fire damage based on the FAQ, even though that really doesn't make sense since it's a scenario power.
(side note: the MM rulebook has the exact same wording as the FAQ, so nothing was changed between WotR and MM)