Scythia |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What does this have to do with katanas
See, my grampa told me once that when he was fightin to clear the Japanese off one of them islands his squad set up a machine gun emplacement. They laid down some suppressin fire, and not but ten seconds after they stopped firin, up comes this guy with a sword, and slices clean through the machine gun barrel.
A course they shot him dead, but my grampa was real impressed.
Zhangar |
What does this have to do with katanas
The original topic's sort of done, so we've managed to trade the old topic for a better one?
I strongly recommend John Keegan's military histories.
The sheer scale of the fighting on the Nazi-Soviet front was staggering - there were numerous battles fought that were functionally wars in of themselves.
@ Athaleon - IIRC, Stalin publicly acknowledged that the sheer volume of war materials the Soviets got from the U.S. played a significant part in the Soviet Union's victory. (Though he probably stated it much more succinctly).
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
thedryden |
For whatever its worth here are the stats of the appropriate weapons:
http://fieldofbattlecards.com/dmg_calc/?n=Scimitar&b=6&h=6&ia=6 ,1&a=fa&d=1d6+7&ed=&c=18&m=2&ch=0&cd=&cr=cr &ac=6&n1=Katana&b1=6&h1=6&ia1=6,1&a1=fa&d1=1d8+ 7&ed1=&c1=18&m1=2&ch1=0&cd1=&cr1=cr&ac1=6&n 2=Longsword&b2=6&h2=6&ia2=6,1&a2=fa&d2=1d8+7&ed2=&a mp;&c2=19&m2=2&ch2=0&cd2=&cr2=cr&ac2=6
From a mechanics standpoint it doesn't look like it is worth a feat unless you plan on adding keen and then it marginal. Still worth it form an RP stand point though.
If you not talking a feat to wield it one handed its only slightly worse than a Falchion:
http://fieldofbattlecards.com/dmg_calc/index.html?n=Greatsword&b=6& h=4&ia=6,1&a=fa&d=2d6+15&ed=&c=19&m=2&ch=0& cd=&cr=cr&ac=6&n1=Greataxe&b1=6&h1=4&ia1=6,1&a1 =fa&d1=1d12+15&ed1=&c1=20&m1=3&ch1=0&cd1=&cr1=c r&ac1=6&n2=Falchion&b2=6&h2=4&ia2=6,1&a2=fa&d2= 2d4+15&ed2=&c2=18&m2=2&ch2=0&cd2=&cr2=cr&ac2=6& amp;&n3=Katana&b3=6&h3=4&ia3=6,1&a3=fa&d3=1d8+15&am p;ed3=&c3=18&m3=2&ch3=0&cd3=&cr3=cr&ac3=6
And even with keen none of the high critical weapons pull ahead of the great sword / great axe until your static damage bonuses get very high:
http://fieldofbattlecards.com/dmg_calc/index.html?n=Greatsword&b=6& h=4&ia=6,1&a=fa&d=2d6+15&ed=&c=19&m=2&ch=0& cd=&cr=cr&ac=6&n1=Greataxe&b1=6&h1=4&ia1=6,1&a1 =fa&d1=1d12+15&ed1=&c1=20&m1=3&ch1=0&cd1=&cr1=c r&ac1=6&n2=Falchion&b2=6&h2=4&ia2=6,1&a2=fa&d2= 2d4+15&ed2=&c2=18&m2=2&ch2=0&cd2=&cr2=cr&ac2=6& amp;&n3=Katana&b3=6&h3=4&ia3=6,1&a3=fa&d3=1d8+15&am p;ed3=&c3=18&m3=2&ch3=0&cd3=&cr3=cr&ac3=6
Chengar Qordath |
Hell, SPAM played a monstrous role in helping the Soviet Union. Canned meat from the US was a huge lifesaver in those days...basically a luxury item.
It's still thought of well over there.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, the sheer amount of logistical aid the US provided the Soviets is staggering, but often gets overlooked by a lot of armchair generals who just focus on weapons production. Sure, the Soviets had factories in Siberia churning out bullets, guns, and tanks, but none of that would have mattered if not for stuff like the 400,000+ trucks and 2000 locomotives the US provided to actually get everything from the Siberian factories to the frontlines.
Plus, as you mentioned, an army fights on it's stomach. With most of the USSR's prime farmland either in German hands or being fought over (not to mention all the able-bodied males in the army) a lot of that food had to come from the US.
LazarX |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is why nobody fights an open war with the united states. We annihilated Iraq, which had the greatest tank army in the mIddle East. We totally destroyed their air power and naval power in addition. We are masters of fighting open warfare.
It's important to note that the bulk of the Iraqui army had pretty much surrendered us prior to the actual fightingm when we promised that we wouldn't turn them out on the street and keep them employed in a post-Saddam Iraq.
Much of what has happened since then, is the result of us breaking that promise and disbanding the Iraqi army right after our victory. The bulk of the post war enemies we are fighting today, can be traced to yet another one of our colossal mistakes.
gamer-printer |
Speaking of WW2, I had 2 different great uncles who served in the war, one my uncle Dayton, though he was a merchant marine and not a soldier served in the Atlantic. The other great uncle was a physician for the Japanese Army and was killed somewhere in the South Pacific.
What I find interesting is that my great grandfather (the father of the Japanese uncle who died in the S. Pacific) was an influencial physician whose family had acquired wealth before the war, and owned a lot of land. When the Japanese who served in China returned to Japan as "heroes", the Japanese government promised land grants, except the government had no land to give. So they approached my great grandfather (and people like him), and in exchange for keeping all five of his sons out of the war, confiscated much of his land for this purpose. So my Japanese male relatives were excempt from fighting even though Japan was extremely militaristic at the time - and you'd think they'd want all eligible males serving the military. My great uncle defied his father and served and died anyway.
So I've got WW2 connections on both sides of the war.
Bandw2 |
Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
Athaleon |
Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
Not sure if this is bait.
Charon's Little Helper |
So they approached my great grandfather (and people like him), and in exchange for keeping all five of his sons out of the war, confiscated much of his land for this purpose. So my Japanese male relatives were excempt from fighting even though Japan was extremely militaristic at the time - and you'd think they'd want all eligible males serving the military.
Historically - that's not an uncommon practice. Many countries allowed people to buy their way out of the draft through various methods in order to help pay for the war - and Japan was having trouble paying for their military.
Heck - the US allowed it during The Civil War - you could get someone else to take your place or pay $300 instead, (think approx. 8-15 grand, though with the standard of living so much lower - few would have that much to spare - much less on hand) though even at the time it was a bit controversial.
Admittedly - WWII Japan is the most recent instance of it that I can think of.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Bandw2 wrote:Not sure if this is bait.Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
IF he's serious, then it's downright hilarious.
"Can cut through tank" should be amended to the item description.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Athaleon wrote:Bandw2 wrote:Not sure if this is bait.Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
IF he's serious, then it's downright hilarious. maybe he's mixing swords up with ice skates?
"Can cut through tank" should be amended to the item description.
==Aelryinth
lemeres |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Athaleon wrote:Bandw2 wrote:Not sure if this is bait.Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
IF he's serious, then it's downright hilarious.
"Can cut through tank" should be amended to the item description.
==Aelryinth
And then all the characters say 'what is a tank?'
Yes. I do believe this should be added into the system.
Charon's Little Helper |
Aelryinth wrote:And then all the characters say 'what is a tank?'Athaleon wrote:Bandw2 wrote:Not sure if this is bait.Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
IF he's serious, then it's downright hilarious.
"Can cut through tank" should be amended to the item description.
==Aelryinth
It's what you store water in when you're in the desert... duh!
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Soilent |
Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
Soilent |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Katanas honestly were not well-designed weapons, they have very ineffective hilts and poor reach for a two handed weapon. They also weren't all that effective as a piercing weapon, which was fine in feudal Japan against lamellar armour but will get you killed against someone wearing mail.
Are you sure?
Because obviously Katanas are so absolutely perfect, that they slash right through slash resistant armor.
I heard that Jesus himself was a Katana.
lemeres |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PrinceRaven wrote:Katanas honestly were not well-designed weapons, they have very ineffective hilts and poor reach for a two handed weapon. They also weren't all that effective as a piercing weapon, which was fine in feudal Japan against lamellar armour but will get you killed against someone wearing mail.Are you sure?
Because obviously Katanas are so absolutely perfect, that they slash right through slash resistant armor.
I heard that Jesus himself was a Katana.
I heard that pontius pilate had a BLACK katana. Which obviously means it was even better.
At least until Jesus released his fighting spirit after three days of training, and his katana turned GOLD.
Transylvanian Tadpole RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 |
Green Smashomancer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Katanas honestly were not well-designed weapons, they have very ineffective hilts and poor reach for a two handed weapon. They also weren't all that effective as a piercing weapon, which was fine in feudal Japan against lamellar armour but will get you killed against someone wearing mail.
I think the restrained peasant murdering is where the bonus to coup-de-graces comes from actually. That makes sense.
Also, relevant. Pathfinder is probably giving the Katana more credit than it deserves for the sake of fairness.
I didn't change the entire first line because the guy I quoted said the same thing I did earlier. Nope.
DM Under The Bridge |
swoosh wrote:I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?As an exotic one handed you're basically spending a feat for the Deadly property and +1 crit range, which might be nice for a CdG focused build... but if you are building for CdGs wouldn't you be better off with a weapon with a better crit multiplier? The two features are asynergistic with each other anyways, since CdGs autocrit.
In our games over many many years, a Drow barbarian survived the coup de grace... once.
DM Under The Bridge |
Katanas honestly were not well-designed weapons, they have very ineffective hilts and poor reach for a two handed weapon. They also weren't all that effective as a piercing weapon, which was fine in feudal Japan against lamellar armour but will get you killed against someone wearing mail.
Yes, katanas will always just be bastard swords for me. No I don't care for extra rules to make them cooler because there are fanboys about (I say that as a bit of a weeaboo, but not a katana fan). If I am feeling particularly nasty, they are bastard swords with less hardness.
For a long time the samurai used a better battlefield weapon than the katana, no I'm not talking about their bow, I'm talking about the naginata (better reach and momentum potential).
Swiss two-handed sabre, or Korean version of the same (better metal quality) for a more durable slicer, or Turkish kilij to do what the katana does better (and it's an even better cavalry sword to boot). Or Polish/Hungarian sabre to get the same cutting power one-handed and faster.
PrinceRaven |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Between the kanabo, naginata, yuri and yumi bow the samurai had a variety of really good weapons they could use quite effectively on the battlefield.
Then they had the katana, which was basically there for the symbolism, duels and executing prisoners.
Personally, I think comparing them to bastard swords is an insult to bastard swords.
Senko |
Senko wrote:I think I've actually seen a movie with that theme, very weird one distopic world with super samurai vs genetically engineered mutants (who deformed to use something as a weapon e.g. armour piercing pens) that ended with the main female lead becoming one and having a katana hand or something. Contained interspersed "adds" for various content including a seppuku kit (used by two teenage girls as it was the cool thing) and katanas.Tokyo Gore Police. Brilliant movie. My personal favorite of Japan's over-the-top gore films. Highly recommended. It's on Hulu.
EDIT: I see someone else thought maybe Mutant Girls Squad. The description still sounds more like TGP to me, though. I don't think MGS had any seppuku kit adds. Ruka's hand was less a katana and more of a creepy monster head. With claws.
Yes that's the one Tokyo Gore Police.
On topic to be fair the katana isn't that much worse a weapon than the cavalry sabre if you really think about it.
DM Under The Bridge |
Kthulhu wrote:Senko wrote:I think I've actually seen a movie with that theme, very weird one distopic world with super samurai vs genetically engineered mutants (who deformed to use something as a weapon e.g. armour piercing pens) that ended with the main female lead becoming one and having a katana hand or something. Contained interspersed "adds" for various content including a seppuku kit (used by two teenage girls as it was the cool thing) and katanas.Tokyo Gore Police. Brilliant movie. My personal favorite of Japan's over-the-top gore films. Highly recommended. It's on Hulu.
EDIT: I see someone else thought maybe Mutant Girls Squad. The description still sounds more like TGP to me, though. I don't think MGS had any seppuku kit adds. Ruka's hand was less a katana and more of a creepy monster head. With claws.
Yes that's the one Tokyo Gore Police.
On topic to be fair the katana isn't that much worse a weapon than the cavalry sabre if you really think about it.
Some cavalry sabres are very nice and more durable than the katana.
Saigo Takamori |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some people seem to miss the point of the modeling of weapon in Pathfinder: it's to make possible some typical character, not to relfect reality. Does an archer can shoot 1 arrow per second at 35 feets in real life? No, but we had some archer in litterature that could do it (Legolas, I'm looking at you). Can you reload a crossbow/ a musket in a few seconds? No. Heck, can you fight with a double-flail? Lol no.
It's the same thing with the Katana: was it a great weapon? No. But a lot of character out there use it with style, be it Morpheus who cut a car in 2, Blade, Kill Bill or anything straight from Japan. In that case, the goal of the rule set for the Katana is not realism, but to reflect how it is use in media to let player do it. And in media, it's a type of bastard sword that can cut anything.
Saigo Takamori |
Senko wrote:Some cavalry sabres are very nice and more durable than the katana.Kthulhu wrote:Senko wrote:I think I've actually seen a movie with that theme, very weird one distopic world with super samurai vs genetically engineered mutants (who deformed to use something as a weapon e.g. armour piercing pens) that ended with the main female lead becoming one and having a katana hand or something. Contained interspersed "adds" for various content including a seppuku kit (used by two teenage girls as it was the cool thing) and katanas.Tokyo Gore Police. Brilliant movie. My personal favorite of Japan's over-the-top gore films. Highly recommended. It's on Hulu.
EDIT: I see someone else thought maybe Mutant Girls Squad. The description still sounds more like TGP to me, though. I don't think MGS had any seppuku kit adds. Ruka's hand was less a katana and more of a creepy monster head. With claws.
Yes that's the one Tokyo Gore Police.
On topic to be fair the katana isn't that much worse a weapon than the cavalry sabre if you really think about it.
Well, the ''art'' of doing Katana stopped to develop in 1600, while the cavalry sabre was still in use in battle until the XX century.
Soilent |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some people seem to miss the point of the modeling of weapon in Pathfinder: it's to make possible some typical character, not to relfect reality. Does an archer can shoot 1 arrow per second at 35 feets in real life? No, but we had some archer in litterature that could do it (Legolas, I'm looking at you). Can you reload a crossbow/ a musket in a few seconds? No. Heck, can you fight with a double-flail? Lol no.
It's the same thing with the Katana: was it a great weapon? No. But a lot of character out there use it with style, be it Morpheus who cut a car in 2, Blade, Kill Bill or anything straight from Japan. In that case, the goal of the rule set for the Katana is not realism, but to reflect how it is use in media to let player do it. And in media, it's a type of bastard sword that can cut anything.
Did you notice how none of those examples are from Pathfinder?
Dragonchess Player |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rynjin wrote:What does this have to do with katanasSee, my grampa told me once that when he was fightin to clear the Japanese off one of them islands his squad set up a machine gun emplacement. They laid down some suppressin fire, and not but ten seconds after they stopped firin, up comes this guy with a sword, and slices clean through the machine gun barrel.
A course they shot him dead, but my grampa was real impressed.
Saigo Takamori |
Saigo Takamori wrote:Did you notice how none of those examples are from Pathfinder?Some people seem to miss the point of the modeling of weapon in Pathfinder: it's to make possible some typical character, not to relfect reality. Does an archer can shoot 1 arrow per second at 35 feets in real life? No, but we had some archer in litterature that could do it (Legolas, I'm looking at you). Can you reload a crossbow/ a musket in a few seconds? No. Heck, can you fight with a double-flail? Lol no.
It's the same thing with the Katana: was it a great weapon? No. But a lot of character out there use it with style, be it Morpheus who cut a car in 2, Blade, Kill Bill or anything straight from Japan. In that case, the goal of the rule set for the Katana is not realism, but to reflect how it is use in media to let player do it. And in media, it's a type of bastard sword that can cut anything.
And your point is? I could say that the Dwarf from Pathfinder are, in fact, from Tolkien, that the Elf are also (with minor change) from Tolkien...
Edit: and don't forget: Pathfinder is a set of rule, Golarion is the setting. Pathfinder should not give you ''example'', it sould give you rule set to create character.
Dragonchess Player |
Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
The curved edge of a katana is good for draw cuts (to cause more bleeding), not chopping through metal armor; against lightly armored (padded cloth, if anything) conscript troops, it was a lot more effective. Unlike some other curved swords, the katana does not act to concentrate the force of the blow to any large degree over a straight-edged sword; the curve is too gradual for that and the balance isn't far enough forward (to add momentum to the swing).
Saigo Takamori |
Bandw2 wrote:The curved edge of a katana is good for draw cuts (to cause more bleeding), not chopping through metal armor; against lightly armored (padded cloth, if anything) conscript troops, it was a lot more effective. Unlike some other curved swords, the katana does not act to concentrate the force of the blow to any large degree over a straight-edged sword; the curve is too gradual for that and the balance isn't far enough forward (to add momentum to the swing).Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
True, but, again, it's in real life. In fantasy/ litterature/ popular culture, it's not the case.
Soilent |
Dragonchess Player wrote:True, but, again, it's in real life. In fantasy/ litterature/ popular culture, it's not the case.Bandw2 wrote:The curved edge of a katana is good for draw cuts (to cause more bleeding), not chopping through metal armor; against lightly armored (padded cloth, if anything) conscript troops, it was a lot more effective. Unlike some other curved swords, the katana does not act to concentrate the force of the blow to any large degree over a straight-edged sword; the curve is too gradual for that and the balance isn't far enough forward (to add momentum to the swing).Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
Then change that for your own magical realm.
The katana does not need to be some magical adamantine weapon, from level 1.
EntrerisShadow |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Between the kanabo, naginata, yuri and yumi bow the samurai had a variety of really good weapons they could use quite effectively on the battlefield.
Then they had the katana, which was basically there for the symbolism, duels and executing prisoners.
Personally, I think comparing them to bastard swords is an insult to bastard swords.
Things I have learned from this thread:
1. My hatred of katanas is completely justified, but there are way cooler Japanese weapons that sadly are not getting their due.
2. Do NOT Google a "yuri" bow at work with the safe search off.
Saigo Takamori |
Saigo Takamori wrote:Dragonchess Player wrote:True, but, again, it's in real life. In fantasy/ litterature/ popular culture, it's not the case.Bandw2 wrote:The curved edge of a katana is good for draw cuts (to cause more bleeding), not chopping through metal armor; against lightly armored (padded cloth, if anything) conscript troops, it was a lot more effective. Unlike some other curved swords, the katana does not act to concentrate the force of the blow to any large degree over a straight-edged sword; the curve is too gradual for that and the balance isn't far enough forward (to add momentum to the swing).Katana's honestly should ignore an amount of hardness or DR, they were made in a way that makes them cut through things and slow down less quickly and thus keep moving further.
European and most swords have a concave edge, while katanas have a convex edge that pushes the material away. very good weapons.
Then change that for your own magical realm.
The katana does not need to be some magical adamantine weapon, from level 1.
I would change it if I was angry about the actual rule for the Katana, but I'm not. True, I make it easier to get dex to damage for a lot of weapon, including the Katana, but it's all. I'm quite happy with the actual rules.