Thank you very much for this
Chief Technical Officer
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So while we made Slip an optional check, we also added a rule that you can't choose to fail a required check.
At least Jirelle can reroll dice in an attempt to fail required checks; none of the other character powers seem to let you do that. My S&S characters have come through these FAQ updates unscathed!
Then again, skill feats powers such as 'gain skill' look like they are mandatory. Things are sometimes bad enough when can't stop Swashbuckling. It is hard to fail a check when you are this awesome.
On a similar tack of "Jirelle best character, best rerolls" we were all set on Druvalia Thurne to reverse use her power to keep the success as close to 30 as possible. We worked really hard setting the perfect dice pool on the first check, with the expectation that Jirelle would reroll two of her dice if she rolled too high and took an enough Force damage to wipe her hand (we were out of armors to bury). I'd say we were almost slavering to do it, only to have my wife roll a total of, like, 31 or 32 and not require any rerolling in the first place.
Jirelle too stronk.
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Chief Technical Officer
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At the end of the day, I don't see why the statement "Do X or Y happens" implies that I must have a go at doing X. Why can't shrugging off X -- not even trying -- and letting Y happen be a reasonable response to that construction?
So Hooloovoo had a really good point here, and my answer about "context" didn't fully apply to every one of them.
The real issue is that there are really two primary uses of "or:"
Choose X or choose Y.
Do X or else Y happens.
And that means that there could be constructions that don't have enough context to tell you which use we mean. For example, "discard a blessing or bury any card" could easily be read either way.
In practice, we would only word it that way when we meant "choose X or choose Y." The "do X or Y happens" version would be written as "Discard a blessing; if you have no blessings, bury a card." Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you're really familiar with our templates.
We *could* solve this by changing the "choose x or choose y" template to use worlds like "either" and "otherwise"; for the example, it could be "Either discard a blessing or bury any card...." But making that change would require us to revise hundreds of cards, many of which are already clear from context.
After much examination (Mike evaluated every single card with "or" on it) and much discussion, we have a pretty good concept that we think clearly identifies the intent on every existing card:
"If a card requires you to attempt a check, you must do so; if you fail, you must do whatever the card then tells you to do. If a card presents you with 2 or more options, none of which requires a check, you may choose any of those options."
Don't worry so much about the wording right now—worry about the concept, which boils down to this: If it's not a check, it's a choice.
Going back to our example, this makes "discard a blessing or bury any card" definitively "choose X or choose Y."
Thoughts?
After much examination (Mike evaluated every single card with "or" on it) and much discussion, we have a pretty good concept that we think clearly identifies the intent on every existing card:
"If a card requires you to attempt a check, you must do so; if you fail, you must do whatever the card then tells you to do. If a card presents you with 2 or more options, none of which requires a check, you may choose any of those options."
Don't worry so much about the wording right now—worry about the concept, which boils down to this: If it's not a check, it's a choice.
Going back to our example, this makes "discard a blessing or bury any card" definitively "choose X or choose Y."
Thoughts?
The first card that springs to mind for me is the location in Runelords where the "When closing" text is "Succeed at a Divine 6 check or banish a blessing" (Shrine to Lamashtu?). I can think of at least three ways to interpret this:
1. Choose one of (Succeed at a Divine 6 check) and (banish a blessing). If you do it, close the location. Ignore the one you didn't choose. This is how I've been playing it - the "Choose X or choose Y" interpretation.
2. Attempt a Divine 6 check. If you succeed, close the location; if you fail, banish a blessing (and the location is not closed).
3. Attempt a Divine 6 check. If you succeed, close the location; if you fail, you may banish a blessing to close the location.
Your proposed rule points me towards option 2 or 3. Probably 2, if only because 3 seems a bit generous.
I should add that I think I've leapt straight to one of the hardest examples, because the extra context of "When closing" muddies the issue. As a general rule applied to powers on monsters, "At this location", etc, it should work well.
I believe that Nefruby's point isn't that he is really asking which way it should work, but that by the proposed rule, the card presents him 2 or more options, but one of them is a check. The rule requires that neither of them be a check to allow him to choose. Therefore, he can't choose and that would change how this location worked.
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Chief Technical Officer
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A fresh take:
Optional vs. Required Checks
• If you are instructed to attempt a check, you must do so.
• If you are instructed to succeed at a check to do a thing, and the instruction does not use the word "may," you must attempt the check; if you succeed, you must do that thing.
• If you are instructed to succeed at a check or do a thing, you must attempt the check; if you fail, you must do that thing.
• If you are instructed to either attempt a check or do something else, choose one of those options.
• If you are presented with 2 or more options, none of which require a check, you may choose any of those options.
(Shrine to Lamashtu and Coastline, and possibly a few other cards, should then say "Either do X or do Y.")
Nice summary Vic.
IMHO, I agree that in the future, making sure you use the "Either" keyword when appropriate should help a lot avoiding confusion.
Both Shrine to Besmara and Sacristy seem similar to Coastline and Shrine to Lamashtu.