I know that this entire account has been all questions and no help giving, but all of this is so I actually know the game i'm hosting since i've never been taught my self (of course i've read the book, but lots of things can be forgotten or not mentioned). In good time i'll be trying my best to pay the respects forward, but I need to know the game well enough first.
I've recently just begun creating genuine dungeons with things such as portcullises, which is where i'm having a problem (as I always do)
So your average DC for lifting a portcullis is 25.
I take it that you can "Take 20" on this, but even if you've got the usual starting max of 18 STR and you take 20 on a STR check (assuming you can, i've just started using the take 10, take 20 systems and I don't fully know what's applicable), you still only get 24. So how does having someone else helping you, if at all possible, come into play? Can they both "take 20" or "take 10" to get a combination of 25 or over to lift this portcullis?
What would be some other examples of helping out on ability checks if there are any? I'm still trying to learn this all from scratch and I keep either missing information or not retaining it from the books.
Normally for assistance(e.g. Diplomacy), the helper rolls to beat a DC 10 to give a +2 bonus to the main guy attempting the act.
Not sure how it applies to strength checks.
Seems to me the answer would be copious amounts of aid another
I take it that this means that it is possible to take 20 on a STR check to lift a portcullis? All of this is making me wonder what the point of the portcullis is if it's a simple take 20 + aid another, other than a portcullis being flavor text of dungeon crawling or an unfortunate segment into the end of the hallway *not* filled with lava/monsters.
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I don't know if a person can "assist" a ST check per the rules. For a portcullis, I'd probably allow it (because six heads is better than one - assuming they can all get simultaneous access).
But, as DM, another question you might want to ask yourself is whether or not you want the players to get past the portcullis. Because this doesn't require any math or system knowledge (but you might want to roll a few dice behind the DM screen anyway...).
You would use the aid other rules. They don't explicitly call out ability checks, but it should work identically.
Assuming there is no penalty for failure, both parties could just keep rolling until they get max (take 20), although it might take a while. Note that you can't take 10 with an aid other check. In your example this would give a total of 26: just enough to lift the portcullis
You would use the aid other rules. They don't explicitly call out ability checks, but it should work identically.
Assuming there is no penalty for failure, both parties could just keep rolling until they get max (take 20), although it might take a while. Note that you can't take 10 with an aid other check.
Thank you. So it's not a question of whether or not they succeed, just on how long it takes them to do so. I've been learning a lot these past few days!
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Seems to me the answer would be copious amounts of aid anotherI take it that this means that it is possible to take 20 on a STR check to lift a portcullis? All of this is making me wonder what the point of the portcullis is if it's a simple take 20 + aid another, other than a portcullis being flavor text of dungeon crawling or an unfortunate segment into the end of the hallway *not* filled with lava/monsters.
You can take 10/20 on Ability Checks. It doesn't specifically call all that you can use aid another on a Ability check, but I don't know why you couldn't.
There are no other rules in place (that I'm aware of) for trying to cooperatively do something.
Seems to me the answer would be copious amounts of aid anotherI take it that this means that it is possible to take 20 on a STR check to lift a portcullis? All of this is making me wonder what the point of the portcullis is if it's a simple take 20 + aid another, other than a portcullis being flavor text of dungeon crawling or an unfortunate segment into the end of the hallway *not* filled with lava/monsters.You can take 10/20 on Ability Checks. It doesn't specifically call all that you can use aid another on a Ability check, but I don't know why you couldn't.
There are no other rules in place (that I'm aware of) for trying to cooperatively do something.
Thank you. You've been very helpful
The point of the roadblock in this case would be to either a) slow the party down or b) provide a situation that may force players to seek an alternative route (or act as a shortcut if the players can bypass the limitations: in this case, if noone had a STR of at least 16 the portcullis could very well be insurmountable).
You need to stop thinking of skill or ability checks as being 'pass the check or you can't proceed'. The basic assumption is that skill checks will either be generally achievable (although perhaps at the cost of time or resources) or, if they are difficult, are there only to provide a shortcut or reward for players who have a focused build or think of a creative way to bypass the challenge.
Never create an obstacle of any kind, social or environmental, with a DC which may not be achievable unless you have considered what the players will do if they fail.
Also, assuming a 20 point buy, most martials would probably have a strength score of 20 once you include their racial modifier. Factoring in rage, spells, items and whatever else, a 25 strength check wouldn't be that hard. An orc abyssal bloodrager could have a 9 strength modifier by lvl 4 when enraged, and get up to an 11 with bull's strength. If your players REALLY want to move this thing and have any kind of party bruiser, they'll probably just toss it aside.
Price 2 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
This versatile tool is designed to help pry open whatever the user desires. A crowbar grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks made to force open a door or chest. If it is used in combat, treat a crowbar as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size.
4 (Str 18) + Take-20 + 2 (Crowbar) = 26 which makes a DC 25.
The right equipment helps.
/cevah
You will find that for most challenges/obstacles outside of combat it is not a question of if he PCs succeed, but of how long it will take them. A chest or door will be forced or broken eventually. A wall will be climbed over, or even tunneled under. The portcullis will be lifted or demolished.
This is how the game is designed. Those obstacles are pretty boring by themselves, it is only when they are guarded by intelligent foes that they become interesting. Or when there is a time crunch to add drama. Otherwise they are just scenery and deserve to be treated as such.
So the answer is pretty much "Take 20 to lift and everyone else can use Aid Another".
Some people have said they're not sure if you can use Aid Another for strength check, the answer to this question is - Yes you can. The rules for loading a catapult say:
Loading a catapult requires a series of full-round actions. It takes a DC 15 Strength check to winch the throwing arm down; most catapults have wheels to allow up to two crew members to use the aid another action, assisting the main winch operator.
(CRB p435)
In addition to this, the rules for using a Ram imply that for some actions, additional helpers could even add their Strength modifiers to help another person:
In addition to the damage given on Table 13–8, up to nine other characters holding the ram can add their Strength modif iers to the ram’s damage, if they devote an attack action to doing so.
(CRB p435)
I'd be a bit careful about using this for everything, but for something like lifting a portcullis it seems appropriate.As for Taking 20 and Taking 10, here's some guides.
Taking 20:
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Taking 20 means they'll fail, and fail a lot (I assume they'll fail 19 times) before they finally get it right. That means any check where a fail would result in a penalty (or damage or W/E), that penalty (or damage) would be applied 19 times before you get a success. For this reason it's not appropriate for checks like Disable Divice to disarm a trap (as you'd set the trap off before you disarm it) but it is appropriate for a Search check to find the trap, or a Disable Device check to pick a lock (assuming the lock isn't trapped).
The other thing to remember is that "Taking 20" is literally taking 20 rounds (2 minutes) to complete a task. For this reason I'd let people use it for a whole lot of actions. If someone reeeaalllyy wants to Take 20 on an attack action, they're giving an opponent 19 full rounds to attack them, and in return all they get is 1 critical hit (Note: This is not sanctioned by Paizo, and I doubt anyone WOULD ask to do this, but if they did ask, it's certainly not giving them an unfair advantage).Taking 10:
The idea for these checks is that you're so practiced at the action, that there's no point rolling unless you're under threat or there's some other penalty effecting you. A good example is the acrobatics check:
Surface Width//Base Acrobatics DC
Greater than 3 feet wide//0*
1–3 feet wide//5*
7–11 inches wide//10
2–6 inches wide//15
Less than 2 inches wide//20* No Acrobatics check is needed to move across these
surfaces unless the modifiers to the surface (see page 89)
increase the DC to 10 or higher.
(CRB p87)
Essentially what this is saying, is that even walking on flat ground requires an acrobatics check, but since the DC is so low there's no point rolling (unless you're drunk or something and the DC increases to 10 or more). Taking 10 doesn't require taking multiple rounds like like taking 20 does, it's just an easy way to represent mundane tasks that are too easy to bother with a roll.
Anything that would cause a threat to a character (such as combat) denies a character the ability to take 10 on an action (which technically means in combat you have to roll just to walk, although without any other modifiers the DC is 0).
All of this is making me wonder what the point of the portcullis is if it's a simple take 20 + aid another
If there's someone on the other side of the portcullis they get 19 rounds to take pot-shots at whoever's trying to open the gate. Also note that if someone hits you while you're taking 20, you fail and have to start again. Even a 1st level commoner is likely to manage that.
(which technically means in combat you have to roll just to walk, although without any other modifiers the DC is 0)
I don't advocate actually making players roll to move in combat, this is just an abstract example of what the rules *Technically* say.
Also the rules specifically forbid Taking 20 in combat, I only said I'd let them do that because I can't think of any way they could make it a good thing for them to be doing - If their character really wants to stand still for 2 minutes in the middle of a battlefield concentrating on a task, what harm is it really doing? ... aside from the obvious harm to themselves as the enemy uses them for target practice.