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Just to be very clear, here is all the verbage.
Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue
Rogue’s Edge (Ex): At 5th level, a rogue has mastered a single skill beyond that skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. She gains the skill unlock powers (see page 82) for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill. At 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, she chooses an additional skill and gains skill unlock powers for that skill as well.
Signature Skill (General)
Your ability with a particular skill is the stuff of legends, and you can do things with that skill that others cannot.
Prerequisite: 5 ranks in the chosen skill.
Benefit: Choose one skill. You gain the ability listed in that skill’s 5 Ranks entry. As you gain more ranks in the chosen skill, you gain additional abilities. If you have 10 or more ranks in the chosen skill, you gain the appropriate abilities immediately. If your chosen skill is Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, you gain the listed powers only for one category of that skill, such as Craft (bows). This feat can be taken only once, but it stacks with the rogue’s edge ability and the cutting edge rogue talent.
Got that?
What is in Additional Resources makes no sense as written, because Signature Skill is not gained through Rogue's Edge -- Skill Unlocks are. Per the blog post, only Unchained Rogues can take Signature Skill, but it is not clear how that interacts with multiclassing -- is one level of UR enough? Or do you need to have gained Rogue's Edge first?
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Just to be very clear, here is all the verbage.
Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogueRogue’s Edge (Ex): At 5th level, a rogue has mastered a single skill beyond that skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. She gains the skill unlock powers (see page 82) for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill. At 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, she chooses an additional skill and gains skill unlock powers for that skill as well.Signature Skill (General)
Your ability with a particular skill is the stuff of legends, and you can do things with that skill that others cannot.
Prerequisite: 5 ranks in the chosen skill.
Benefit: Choose one skill. You gain the ability listed in that skill’s 5 Ranks entry. As you gain more ranks in the chosen skill, you gain additional abilities. If you have 10 or more ranks in the chosen skill, you gain the appropriate abilities immediately. If your chosen skill is Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, you gain the listed powers only for one category of that skill, such as Craft (bows). This feat can be taken only once, but it stacks with the rogue’s edge ability and the cutting edge rogue talent.
Got that?
What is in Additional Resources makes no sense as written, because Signature Skill is not gained through Rogue's Edge -- Skill Unlocks are. Per the blog post, only Unchained Rogues can take Signature Skill, but it is not clear how that interacts with multiclassing -- is one level of UR enough? Or do you need to have gained Rogue's Edge first?
This is a perfect summation of the problem, I am assuming the intent from what is listed in the AR/Blog is that the feat is actually not legal for anyone and that Skill Unlocks are only available from Rogue's Edge (and probably the advanced talent, but not sure).
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I am not making it more confusing. It may not be the answer people want to hear, but the answer is as simple as it gets. There's no fucntional difference between the class ability and the feat because the class ability is the ONLY way to get it. Making a difference? That's unnecessarily complicating things.
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Unchained Rogues get the skill unlocks through their Rogue's Edge ability. That's it - the feat is not really PFS-legal for anyone.
It's a new book, and the wording on it is awkward (like all books to some degree). The various announcements of it also had some ambiguity, but really - the Rogue's Edge ability grants the effect of the feat. Does it really matter if you don't get a bonus feat in name only? Because you do get the ability. the meaning of every statement listed above is: "the only way to get skill unlocks is through the unchained rogue's Rogue's Edge ability".
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The blog post left it ambiguous whether or not a multiclassed Unchained Rogue could pick up Signature Skill.
Even looking just at the Additional Resources, it's ambiguous whether a level 7 Unchained Rogue can pick up Signature Skill to get a second skill unlock.
I would certainly advise everyone to use the most restrictive reading of the rule right now, but at the moment I can't tell what the intent was. Either way, the wording in AR needs to be tweaked.
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If Unchained Rogues of 5th level and higher can not pick the Signature Skill Feat as a standard Feat choice, then the Additional Resources is confusingly worded. Rogue's Edge does not grant the Signature Skill Feat, rather it provides a similar effect, access to skill unlocks. I think that Mike needs to revisit the wording of that section of the Additional Resources. In the meanwhile, I will not be selecting the Signature Skill Feat for any character. I will live with the limited access to skill unlocks my rogue has based on the Rogue's Edge Class Feature.
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I just want to know what is/isn't legal.
Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
Thats the only legal way to take rogues edge, which IS the signature skill feat, which IS the skill unlock. If you read them all as the same thing that they effectively are the whole thing makes sense.
A non unchained rogue taking the signature skill feat to get the skill unlocks is getting the skill unlock from a feat, not the rogue ability, so not allowed.
Someone dipping into unchained rogue to try to take the feat to get the skill unlocks is getting the skill unlocks through a feat, not allowed.
Even a 5th level unchained rogue taking the feat again to gain another skill is getting it from a source other than their class feature, so not allowed.
The unchained rogue is legal. Which makes rogues edge lega which makes the skill unlocks legal. Its just like the druids critter having access to improved natural attack but not the druid.
Personally, I've always been of the opinion that Lamplighter's interpretation is correct. But as should be quite clear by the other posters in this thread, it isn't actually what is stated and is confusing and open to misinterpretation.
I disagree that thats not whats stated. It IS whats stated. A little loosely with the new nomenclature but it is whats there.
I'm not sure how they could answer this that someone isn't going to try to pry at it to come up with the other answer.
I am one of the most by-the-book people in my area, and keep up on the forums and rules fairly regularly. Much more so than many others. If I'm having confusion over this, then there WILL be others that do in my area as well, and I'd like to get it sorted out now before it becomes an issue.
When in doubt, "no" has a pretty good track record as an answer.
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BNW, by your reasoning, a roughly equivalent statement would be "Weapon Focus is only available through advancement in the Warrior class". Weapon Focus (the feat) and a BAB increase (gained from the class) do the same thing (improve your to-hit by one), but they aren't the same thing.
Base attack bonus has other effects. CMD, CMB, affects all weapons not just one number of attacks etc. That makes a distinct difference "+1 to hit with A weapon" and "+1 bab". I don't see an equivalent difference here between the skill unlocks through the rogues edge class feature and the signature skill feat.
but that's not what's stated at all. It may be what's meant, but what they say isn't the same.
It is what is stated. I diagrammed out that that's whats stated. It might not be the only way to interpret it if you dissect if hard enough but its there.
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BNW - your interpretation is the best interpretation of the existing text. But the existing text is also clearly wrong, and wrong in such a way that the intention is unclear.
The whole point of this thread is to draw attention to that issue so that Campaign Leadership can go through and fix the wording.
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Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
That is... not clearly written.
Possible meanings:
Skill unlocks are available to Unchained Rogues.
Check, we all agree that this is so.
Signature Skill feat is only available to Unchained Rogues
This is what is unclear, and, even if clear in and off itself, needs additional clarification.
Can an Unchained Rogue actually take the Signature Skill feat?
If so, can he take it at first level, or does he have to wait until he gains the class ability for skill unlocks first, so not until 5th level Unchained Rogue, or just at least one level in Unchained Rogue and 5+ ranks in a skill?
The first part, IMO, is fairly clear. The 5th/10th/15th/20th level class ability works as written.
The second part, also IMO, is less clear, and subject to table variation at this time.
So, options for how it should be handled:
1) Skill unlocks, whose effects are documented in the Signature Skill feat, are only available to Unchained Rogues.
2) Skill unlocks are available to Unchained Rogues. Unchained Rogues are also eligible to take the Signature Skill feat once they gain access to skill unlocks from their class ability Rogue's Edge.
3) Skill unlocks are available to Unchained Rogues. As long as a PC has at least one level in Unchained Rogue, they can qualify to take the Signature Skill feat.
The way the AR is written, at present, it would appear that option 2 is what is meant, requiring the PC to have the Rogue's Edge class ability, not gained until 5th level, to be able to also take the Signature Skill feat.
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If so, can he take it at first level, or does he have to wait until he gains the class ability for skill unlocks first, so not until 5th level Unchained Rogue, or just at least one level in Unchained Rogue and 5+ ranks in a skill?
Cannot take Signature Feat at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level. Because the only prerequisite you need to have is 5 ranks in any given skill.
I would assume cross-classing gives you access you future access to a Skill Unlock as rogues are the only ones who can take Signature Skill. Like take 4 levels in fighter then 1 in rogue.
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If so, can he take it at first level, or does he have to wait until he gains the class ability for skill unlocks first, so not until 5th level Unchained Rogue, or just at least one level in Unchained Rogue and 5+ ranks in a skill?Cannot take Signature Feat at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level. Because the only prerequisite you need to have is 5 ranks in any given skill.
I would assume cross-classing gives you access you future access to a Skill Unlock as rogues are the only ones who can take Signature Skill. Like take 4 levels in fighter then 1 in rogue.
Actually, if it gets clarified the way I think it will, the PC will need to have 5 levels in Unchained Rogue, so that they have the Rogue's Edge class ability, the same way you can't take Extra Rage before you get Rage.
So, multi-class could do it, but they only get to take the Signature Skill feat if they have at least 5 levels in Unchained Rogue, and haven't taken a (future) archetype that trades out Rogue's Edge..
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If so, can he take it at first level, or does he have to wait until he gains the class ability for skill unlocks first, so not until 5th level Unchained Rogue, or just at least one level in Unchained Rogue and 5+ ranks in a skill?Cannot take Signature Feat at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level. Because the only prerequisite you need to have is 5 ranks in any given skill.
I would assume cross-classing gives you access you future access to a Skill Unlock as rogues are the only ones who can take Signature Skill. Like take 4 levels in fighter then 1 in rogue.
The additional resources guide has been written specifically to stop people from doing that. That would be accessing the skill unlocks from something other than the rogues edge class ability.
The entire point of the unchained rogue is to stop the rogue from becoming a dip class and giving actual , single classed rogues the skill supremacy they're supposed to have. Opening the skill unlocks for everyone would run counter to that.
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The text is confusing, if you focus on grammar instead of on content.
It will get clarified, and there are two ways it can be clarified:
1. Feat not PFS-legal, only Rogue's Edge gets you skill unlocks.
2. Feat PFS-legal for unchained rogues only, AND Rogue's Edge gets you skill unlocks.
None of the the other possible interpretations seem to match the fairly obvious intent of the blog post announcing all of this. Unchained rogues get the skill unlocks as a way of making them more useful/ attractive/ whatever in PFS. No one else gets them.
So, save yourself some time and heartbreak, don't plan on #2 happening. If it does, great - but it changes very little functionally unless you go looking for grammar issues instead of game issues.
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The text is confusing, if you focus on grammar instead of on content.
It will get clarified, and there are two ways it can be clarified:
1. Feat not PFS-legal, only Rogue's Edge gets you skill unlocks.
2. Feat PFS-legal for unchained rogues only, AND Rogue's Edge gets you skill unlocks.None of the the other possible interpretations seem to match the fairly obvious intent of the blog post announcing all of this. Unchained rogues get the skill unlocks as a way of making them more useful/ attractive/ whatever in PFS. No one else gets them.
So, save yourself some time and heartbreak, don't plan on #2 happening. If it does, great - but it changes very little functionally unless you go looking for grammar issues instead of game issues.
3) a 5th leel unchained rogue can take the feat in addition to their rogues edge talent.
Can't wait to get a chance to get my hands on this book and read this stuff.
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The additional resources guide has been written specifically to stop people from doing that. That would be accessing the skill unlocks from something other than the rogues edge class ability.
The entire point of the unchained rogue is to stop the rogue from becoming a dip class and giving actual , single classed rogues the skill supremacy they're supposed to have. Opening the skill unlocks for everyone would run counter to that.
If they wanted to convey the message that only a character with 5 levels in rogue could take Signature Skill feat, then they should specifically have stated it within the additional resources.
Normally the additional resources is clear and concise. However with Unchained, the line of text for Skill Unlocks, it is not clear at all. Its so very unclear that there is at least 3 different ways to interpret it.
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I just want to know what is/isn't legal.Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
Thats the only legal way to take rogues edge, which IS the signature skill feat, which IS the skill unlock. If you read them all as the same thing that they effectively are the whole thing makes sense.
A non unchained rogue taking the signature skill feat to get the skill unlocks is getting the skill unlock from a feat, not the rogue ability, so not allowed.
Someone dipping into unchained rogue to try to take the feat to get the skill unlocks is getting the skill unlocks through a feat, not allowed.
Even a 5th level unchained rogue taking the feat again to gain another skill is getting it from a source other than their class feature, so not allowed.
The unchained rogue is legal. Which makes rogues edge lega which makes the skill unlocks legal. Its just like the druids critter having access to improved natural attack but not the druid.
Personally, I've always been of the opinion that Lamplighter's interpretation is correct. But as should be quite clear by the other posters in this thread, it isn't actually what is stated and is confusing and open to misinterpretation.I disagree that thats not whats stated. It IS whats stated. A little loosely with the new nomenclature but it is whats there.
I'm not sure how they could answer this that someone isn't going to try to pry at it to come up with the other answer.
I am one of the most by-the-book people in my area, and keep up on the forums and rules fairly regularly. Much more so than many others. If I'm having confusion over this, then there WILL be others that do in my area as well, and I'd like to get it sorted out now before it becomes an issue.When in doubt, "no" has a pretty good track record as an answer.
None of this is actually accurate, because Rogue's Edge doesn't give the feat by the name of Signature Skill (or any other feat). That it has an identical effect doesn't matter by RAW; if some other feat or something comes out down the line that has Signature Skill as a prerequisite, then Rogue's Edge would not satisfy that because it is not Signature Skill. This is why what's being talked about here is important.
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None of this is actually accurate, because Rogue's Edge doesn't give the feat by the name of Signature Skill (or any other feat). That it has an identical effect doesn't matter by RAW; if some other feat or something comes out down the line that has Signature Skill as a prerequisite, then Rogue's Edge would not satisfy that because it is not Signature Skill. This is why what's being talked about here is important.
I don't see where that makes the conclusions inaccurate.
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None of this is actually accurate, because Rogue's Edge doesn't give the feat by the name of Signature Skill (or any other feat). That it has an identical effect doesn't matter by RAW; if some other feat or something comes out down the line that has Signature Skill as a prerequisite, then Rogue's Edge would not satisfy that because it is not Signature Skill. This is why what's being talked about here is important.I don't see where that makes the conclusions inaccurate.
Because it makes a considerable difference to the question of whether unchained rogues can take Signature Skill as a feat or not. Rogue's Edge doesn't count as the feat, because it doesn't say it gives Signature Skill as a bonus feat (like Finesse Training does for Weapon Finesse, for instance) so that cannot possibly be what it means when it says that, "the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability." The only literal interpretation of that reads that Society allows Signature Skill with an added prerequisite of the Rogue's Edge class feature, but I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't what's intended.
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Because it makes a considerable difference to the question of whether unchained rogues can take Signature Skill as a feat or not. Rogue's Edge doesn't count as the feat, because it doesn't say it gives Signature Skill as a bonus feat (like Finesse Training does for Weapon Finesse, for instance) so that cannot possibly be what it means when it says that, "the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability." The only literal interpretation of that reads that Society allows Signature Skill with an added prerequisite of the Rogue's Edge class feature, but I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't what's intended.None of this is actually accurate, because Rogue's Edge doesn't give the feat by the name of Signature Skill (or any other feat). That it has an identical effect doesn't matter by RAW; if some other feat or something comes out down the line that has Signature Skill as a prerequisite, then Rogue's Edge would not satisfy that because it is not Signature Skill. This is why what's being talked about here is important.I don't see where that makes the conclusions inaccurate.
Which brings us back around to the three possible ways to interpret the line in Additional Resources:
- The Unchained Rogue only gets Skill Unlocks through the Rogue's Edge class ability.
- The Unchained Rogue gets skill unlocks through the Rogue's Edge class ability, but can also take the Signature Skill feat, even if they do not yet have the Rogue's Edge class ability (Rogue dips, usually), as long as they have at least 5 ranks in a skill.
- The Unchained Rogue gets access to the Signature Skill feat by having the Rogue's Edge class ability, by reaching level 5 as an Unchained Rogue.
At present, going with #1 is safest, just in case; but there is just cause, due to the ambiguity of the line in the Additional Resources, to support either #2 or #3 as possibilities.
Personally, I would place #2 as least likely, with #3 as a strong runner-up to #1, but with #1 well out in front.
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I don't see where that makes the conclusions inaccurate.
Thats not answering the question. Its also not showing that what i said was inaccurate.
Because it makes a considerable difference to the question of whether unchained rogues can take Signature Skill as a feat or not. Rogue's Edge doesn't count as the feat, because it doesn't say it gives Signature Skill as a bonus feat (like Finesse Training does for Weapon Finesse, for instance) so that cannot possibly be what it means when it says that, "the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability."
So your complaint is that it MUST be read a certain way because its not forward compatible with something that doesn't even exist yet and may or may not ever come into existence?
Thats assuming a LOT of stuff.
The only literal interpretation of that reads that Society allows Signature Skill with an added prerequisite of the Rogue's Edge class feature, but I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't what's intended.
No. Another literal interpretation is that you cannot take the feat because that is outside of access through the class feature.
It's only available once, as a bonus feat, that's never actually gained?
Skill Unlock is what is being gained.
Rogue's Edge grants Skill Unlock at intervals of 5 levels; the Unchained Rogue, based on class level, can do this at L5 and L10 (as L15 doesn't exist in PFS.)
Signature Skill grants Skill Unlock for one skill. PFS does not allow this feat to be taken, not even by Unchained Rogues.
Rogue's Edge is not Signature Skill, even if their effect (Skill Unlock) is the same; if Signature Skill were allowed, a rogue could take it in addition to Rogue's Edge.
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It's only available once, as a bonus feat, that's never actually gained?Skill Unlock is what is being gained.
Rogue's Edge grants Skill Unlock at intervals of 5 levels; the Unchained Rogue, based on class level, can do this at L5 and L10 (as L15 doesn't exist in PFS.)
Signature Skill grants Skill Unlock for one skill. PFS does not allow this feat to be taken, not even by Unchained Rogues.
Rogue's Edge is not Signature Skill, even if their effect (Skill Unlock) is the same; if Signature Skill were allowed, a rogue could take it in addition to Rogue's Edge.
That is what is under discussion. Since Additional Resources calls out the Rogue as getting it, depending on how you read the following text:
the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
Since it appear to cite the Signature Skill feat as being gained by the Unchained Rogue...
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One could assume that Signature Skill was a legal feat because of how its awkwardly worded.
They could have worded it as:
"Skill Unlocks: The Signature Skill feat is not legal for play."
Boom. Done. No discussion needed.
Yet its the awkwardness in wording because the additional resources specifically calls out the Signature Skill feat being accessible by the rogue's Rogue's Edge class feature.
Yet you cannot obtain the Signature Skill feat via the Rogue's Edge class feature as all the feature does is provide an improved version of Signature Skill as you can select up to four different skills with just this feature by the time you would have hit 20th level.
If the intent was you obtained access to the Signature Skill feat at 5th level as a 5th level unchained rogue, then the additional resources would specifically say that.
"Skill Unlocks: Only a character with five character levels of the Rogue class from this book may take the Signature Skill feat."
That is what is under discussion. Since Additional Resources calls out the Rogue as getting it, depending on how you read the following text:
the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.Since it appear to cite the Signature Skill feat as being gained by the Unchained Rogue...
I read that as a typo, since the class ability doesn't ever grant the feat, only its effect (the skill unlock.)
"In PFS, the Signature Skill feat has an additional prerequisite: rogue's edge class feature." That'd be clear for unchained rogues being able to choose the feat.
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Because it makes a considerable difference to the question of whether unchained rogues can take Signature Skill as a feat or not. Rogue's Edge doesn't count as the feat, because it doesn't say it gives Signature Skill as a bonus feat (like Finesse Training does for Weapon Finesse, for instance) so that cannot possibly be what it means when it says that, "the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability."So your complaint is that it MUST be read a certain way because its not forward compatible with something that doesn't even exist yet and may or may not ever come into existence?
Thats assuming a LOT of stuff.
No, my complaint is that it must be read that way because that is what it says, verbatim.
The only literal interpretation of that reads that Society allows Signature Skill with an added prerequisite of the Rogue's Edge class feature, but I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't what's intended.No. Another literal interpretation is that you cannot take the feat because that is outside of access through the class feature.
That is the exact opposite of a literal interpretation, because it specifically says that you can gain the feat if you have the class feature.
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No, my complaint is that it must be read that way because that is what it says, verbatim.
You keep saying that. You're not showing that.
hat is the exact opposite of a literal interpretation, because it specifically says that you can gain the feat if you have the class feature.
Where does it say that? What are you reading to come to that conclusion?
You keep telling me that it absolutely, literally says something but aren't showing any relation between whats written and your conclusion.Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
This sounds to me like even a 5th level unchained rogue can't take the feat, because that would be getting the feat through your feat, not your class ability.
It might be worded that way not for forward compatibility, but because outside of PFS you CAN take the feat without the requirements and the authors wanted to leave it open for the unchained rogue to be able to take the feat and have their class feature, leaving them with an extra skill unlock ahead of their non rogue counterparts, because you can't normally take the feat twice.
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*Sigh*
This is not that hard. The Additional Resources page says that the Signature Skill feat is available through the Rogue's Edge class ability (that it is only through that ability is irrelevant to the argument; that still means it is available). The Rogue's Edge class ability itself does not give Signature Skill. Taken together, those two facts can only mean that if (and only if) you have the Rogue's Edge class ability, you may take Signature Skill. That is what the sentence says; I have shown it because I have quoted it. I'll do it again just for completeness' sake.
"Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability."
Note also that it says the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat as two separate items, therefore they also cannot reasonably be interpreted as (improperly) using Signature Skill as shorthand for skill unlocks. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
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The Additional Resources page says that the Signature Skill feat is available through the Rogue's Edge class ability (that it is only through that ability is irrelevant to the argument; that still means it is available).
It is incredibly relevant. You cannot claim that you are following the literal wording of whats written when you're removing words from whats written.
The Rogue's Edge class ability itself does not give Signature Skill. Taken together, those two facts can only mean that if (and only if) you have the Rogue's Edge class ability, you may take Signature Skill.
Or it can mean that the additional resource document is the work of failable human beings and not the lexiconal manifestation of the laws of physics.
It can also mean that the Signature skill feat is NOT available, and they wanted to stress that the rogues edge class feature was though in case someone took the two very similar abilities to be the same thing.
It can also mean that the feat is not available(but may open up on a chronicle)