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So, I think we can all agree that the Unchained Monk was, to an extent, a step in the right direction.
But it has rightfully been called more of a "sidegrade" to the original Monk rather than a true buff to the class. Especially given the place a heavily archetyped Old!Monk was sitting (which is roughly equal in power to the New!Monk, or better).
So now that the book is out, I want to spitball some ideas for fully improving it. We'll start with the easy stuff. Once I/We have everything spruced up, I can conglomerate it into a full write-up.
1.) Make the Will save follow the Good progression again. The logic behind nerfing it was to discourage dipping, but I personally don't care whether the Monk is a good dip class or not. The good Will save is on theme, and gives the Monk an important mechanical niche as "All good Saves Man" just like Barbarian is "Big Honkin' Hit Dice Man".
2.) Make the Ki Pool full Character level + Wis. Because for better or worse, New!Monk relies on Ki a LOT. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as he has the Ki to fuel it.
3.) Moves Flawless Mind up to 11th level. Still kind of late game, but it's at a playable level now, and less necessary anyway with the restoration of the good Will save.
4.) Move Empty Body up to 12th level. The original justification for it being 18th/19th level was that it acts as "Etherealness", so a Sorcerer gets it then. But it's not Etherealness, it's Ethereal Jaunt with a fixed Caster Level of 10 since it's still personal only. That makes it come online at 13th or 14th for a Wizard or Sorcerer or what have you, but we'll give it to the Monk at 12 because Ki Powers are far more limited than Spells Known, and it's CL 10 max.
5.) Un-break Quivering Palm, and make it an automatic gain again instead of a Ki power. The new Quivering Palm is a travesty. Make it work exactly like the Core version.
6.) Fix the Bonus Feats list. Simple fix? Make it simply a Combat Feat or Style Feat like every other class with Bonus Feats in the frickin' game. None of this "You have a specific number of Feats that will only grow in the footnotes of scattered Feats from various sourcebooks, and even then only rarely" nonsense. Just...you can pick from this category of Feats. Shazam.
7.) Remove the Ki cost from the Ki Powers that were formerly, or should be "always on". Quick list:
-Diamond Body (Cobra Breath simply changes to something along the lines of "Spend the Ki whenever you are subject to a poison attack to redirect it).
-Diamond Resilience (Because DR 2/- for a single minute at 12th level is sad. DR 2/-, 4/- at 16th always on is still meh, but much better.
-Ki Range (just straight up increases the range of Thrown weapons by 20 feet.)
-Any of the "Grant a Feat" Qinggong Powers should, at the least, be "You have this Feat as long as you have 1 point in your Ki Pool".
8.) Restore Furious Defense and Sudden Speed as baked in Ki Pool functions.
9.) Make Formless Mastery not be basically the worst ability ever printed. I'm thinking something like:
-Formless Mastery (Ex): As long as he does not have any Style Feats and has 1 point left in his Ki Pool, the Monk can spend a Swift action to gain the following benefits against a single opponent: A +4 Dodge bonus to AC, a Circumstance bonus equal to half his Monk level on attacks rolls, and a bonus equal to half his Monk level on damage rolls. The Monk can activate this ability and the "Furious Defense" Ki application with the same action. The Monk must be at least 7th level to select this Ki Power.
10.) Slightly improve some of the Style Strikes:
-Fix Head-Butt so it no longer takes the -8 penalty on things larger than the Monk.
-Let Elbow Smash deal Lethal damage.
-Make Flying Kick work at a distance of 10 feet plus the Monk's Fast Movement bonus.
Thoughts? Improvements? Suggestions for more tweaks?
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In terms of Saves, I've become slightly enamored with the idea of giving them Good Will Saves, but Bad Fortitude and Reflex Saves...and an ability (probably thrown in at level 2-4 or so) to add Wisdom to Fort and Ref Saves. Call it 'Wisdom of the Flesh' (to steal the name from a Trait).
That makes Monk Saves really quite good without upsetting people who think nobody should have all good saves and makes it a little less dippable (since non-Monks aren't mostly gonna get full benefits and several levels in is a rather large dip).
I haven't applied this yet in my house rules, but I'm seriously considering it.
As for Ki Pool, I'd be more inclined to leave it the same size but let them meditate to regain ki points even without taking the full 8 hours. Wis Mod per hour has possibilities...
The problem with that is that getting even an hour of downtime in the middle of an adventuring day is iffy, in my experience. Either you're dungeon crawling, fighting, or traveling for the full day. Or in teh middle of some kind of social challenge. No time to just chill out and veg for an hour once things get moving.
My idea was more to increase the size, and also slightly lower the need by making some Ki Powers always on (or almost always on). This makes the resource management still necessary, but much less of a strain.
Especially since Ki Leech and Wyroot still exist as quick, easy get at least 1 Ki back every combat abilities.
The Saves thing sounds interesting, but I'd be hesitant to make it bad Fort AND Ref. Maybe just Ref.
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The problem with that is that getting even an hour of downtime in the middle of an adventuring day is iffy, in my experience. Either you're dungeon crawling, fighting, or traveling for the full day. Or in teh middle of some kind of social challenge. No time to just chill out and veg for an hour once things get moving.
In my experience it depends on the situation, but you do have a point...
My idea was more to increase the size, and also slightly lower the need by making some Ki Powers always on (or almost always on). This makes the resource management still necessary, but much less of a strain.
I don't inherently disagree with this idea...I'm not positive it's needed, but I'm not against it.
Especially since Ki Leech and Wyroot still exist as quick, easy get at least 1 Ki back every combat abilities.
This is true, but both have issues. Some other method of regainingki seems warranted.
The Saves thing sounds interesting, but I'd be hesitant to make it bad Fort AND Ref. Maybe just Ref.
Eh...that makes them too good at Fort, probably. With just adding Wis you're upping them to 'Good' progression if you ever get Wis 22, which should not be uncommon on Monks eventually. If their Wis is higher than that, they do even better.
I like 1 through 7 since it sounds close to what I was planning on doing anyway. I will have to read the book again for anything past 7.
I consider the new monk a pretty large improvement. They did have to "side-grade" it because the class was already pretty strong as is -- it just needed some quality of life changes and more flexibility in building the type of monk you want to be.
1) The Will save nerf wasn't as big of a sticking point to me, but I agree it feels really weird that the class all about being a disciplined, strong willed warrior has a bad Will save. I think a good compromise is buffing Still Mind, perhaps letting the monk add an ability modifier to saves against enchantment abilities instead of just a +2. This way, the monk has a strong Will save against effects he SHOULD be strong against, but not against everything.
2) Wis + 1/2 level is pretty standard though. And the monk has a TON Of ways to regain or get more ki because existing magic items assumed the monk could only use ki for a very limited number of effects. I don't know, maybe I'm used to it because I played two magi that heavily relied on arcane pool and my artiforged class that relies on a small pool to get a 1 round buff.
3/4) I kind of liked that they lowered empty body, honestly. However, I believe they made the ki cost too high. It should have cost 2 ki. I totally see where you're coming from. I wouldn't oppose raising its level and making it better.
5) I agree that I preferred it a once per day ability.
6) I totally disagree here. Bypassing prerequisites is a pretty big deal and the monk gets a lot of bonus feats early on. I do agree that the list should have been tweaked a little.
7) I'm not so sure. I do think some were not appropriate. I'd have to look at them all on a case by case basis.
8) Hrm, didn't they make both of these so much better though? Sudden speed now lasts a minute rather than 1 round and is the requirement for another ki power that's basically Spring Attack on steroids.
9) I agree that power made me scratch my head and have to reread it. Most of the power comes from the fact it's an immediate, which I feel hobbles the whole ability. I'm not sure if I agree with your house rule. That seems rather strong for an ability that doesn't cost ki. I'm on the fence.
10) I don't agree with these changes. Nonlethal damage is still damage. It's only a problem if dealing with something immune to it or having fast healing. However, I do agree the -8 penalty against different sized targets is pretty ridiculous. Maybe a -4 or -2 instead.
I consider the new monk a pretty large improvement. They did have to "side-grade" it because the class was already pretty strong as is...
Even the devs said the monk class was weak. It needed to have a higher floor, which we will see if that was done, and it needed to be better overall, and not have random abilities that did not work well together.
However I will consider your list, and I might move the will save drop over to a fort save if I think it is needed.
I consider the new monk a pretty large improvement. They did have to "side-grade" it because the class was already pretty strong as is...
Even the devs said the monk class was weak. It needed to have a higher floor, which we will see if that was done, and it needed to be better overall, and not have random abilities that did not work well together.
However I will consider your list, and I might move the will save drop over to a fort save if I think it is needed.
Let me rephrase that. The original monk can be really strong. From my experience, a big limiting factor was the 3/4 BAB, which made the monk very weak at early levels. Having a full BAB gives you immediate access to staple martial feats such as Power Attack, which is absolutely amazing on the monk because his extra attacks from flurry receive the full damage bonus.
Don't have time for long responses to some of your other criticisms but real quick:
Unchained did not intentionally lower the level on Empty Body. It's come down that Buhlman intended it tk be available at 18th.
Elbow Smash being nonlethal presents quite a problem against things that are immune to Nonlethal. For example, one of the most common creature Types in the game.
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?
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I think Jason is great at designing cool and flavorful options... But I also think his views on game balance are... blurry... To say the least...
Here's the guy who said the Arcanist is perfectly balanced and then created an even more powerful 2nd version of the class... And yet, he is also the guy who designed the Unchained Monk and made it barely better than the old Monk (which is proven to be one of the weakest classes in the game)... And to make things worse, he had to be convinced to uprade an even weaker version of the class...
This kind of thing is why I have no faith in Paizo's ability or willingness to improve game balance. They sure do create fun and flavorful stuff... But when it comes to creating balanced stuff, they aren't very good at it... And they don't really care.
Let me rephrase that. The original monk can be really strong.I consider the new monk a pretty large improvement. They did have to "side-grade" it because the class was already pretty strong as is...
Even the devs said the monk class was weak. It needed to have a higher floor, which we will see if that was done, and it needed to be better overall, and not have random abilities that did not work well together.
However I will consider your list, and I might move the will save drop over to a fort save if I think it is needed.
We are going to have to agree to disagree and I don't want to derail the thread with talk of the original monk.
Dot.
Some of these are interesting ideas, a few of which I had already done for my own games. Want to look over the rest, though pretty sure I won't use all of them as other houserules in mine tend to alleviate noted issues.
I defer to you and your expertise, Rynjin, as far as these recommendations go. I agree with you on a lot of what you suggest.
For myself, I like some of the new changes in Unchained, and don't like others. I like some of the ki powers they have in PFU that were - based on Core - so situational they were never used. Others should remain automatic class skills, so I guess a good compromise is the house rule "as long as you have at least 1 ki point in your ki pool" to simply have them.
I'm wondering about WIS to damage - maybe as a new Feat?
I love the Monk. Always have, so I'm going to follow these threads closely!
This encompassing quite a few changes, and its hard to talk specifics when we just have ideas. Could you whip up a PDF?
i'll say most of 1-9 is definitely agreeable (although for the bonus feats thing i'd give the condition that you must meet the bab/skill rank/level prereqs for such feats since full bab is a thing now), but for 10 i'll say that elbow smash is fine.
yes choosing between it and flying kick is a pain, but an extra full-bab attack in a round that you're already flurrying is a lot (even moreso if you go for enforcer+hurtful). that it's nonlethal-only seems fine, since if they hit zero hp from lethal+nonlethal they're unconscious and can be CDG'd anyway (one of the reasons i was yelling at mark about the kineticist's ridiculous playtest costs). yes things are immune to nonlethal, but things are also immune to magic, and sneak attack, etc.
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?
I think they were probably thinking: "How do you head-butt a giant?"
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?I think they were probably thinking: "How do you head-butt a giant?"
How do you head-butt a giant? Roughly the same size proportionally, it goes something like this.
Cool variant Rynjin. I hope other community members who are looking for more upgrades take a page from you (or just join in here with you) and put together something you guys will love!
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Here's my $0.02:
1) While not having this isn't a deal-breaker for me (my group's house-rules on saving throws make it mostly a non-issue), I also don't see the harm in letting them have all good saving throw progression. They're not gonna be paladin level good at it, so what's the harm?
2) Frankly, I'd do this AND move the "meditate for 10 minutes to recover one expended ki point" ability into ki pool as well.
3) A good idea, definitely will seal the deal as the monk being the 'mage-killer' class.
4) Don't really care either way about this one.
5) I'd prefer to see it set back to its Quinggong state, where it's optional but worth it to pick up. They did come down too hard on this one.
6) Yes to all style feats, no to all combat feats. Style feats just SCREAM monkishness, they should be as available to the monk as monk weapons are now. Master of Many Styles can still get around some prereqs and skip the second feat in the chain if they want, so no worries stepping on that archetypes toes either. Combat feats are an immensely diverse bunch and I think don't necessarily fully reflect the feel of the monk class. I WOULD be for expanding the list of monk combat bonus feats, though.
7) Definitely agree to this one. Monks having poison immunity taken away is just mean.
8) STRONGLY agree. Hell, make them all usable as immediate or free actions while we're at it. To compensate, the dodge bonus one can start at +2 and increase by another +1 every 4 or 5 levels. That way its worth it and won't be too much of a temptation for dipping.
9) While I like the idea, this is a VERY strong rewrite of the power. I'm generally against abilities being so good that they're "must have" from a design standpoint. Maybe make it so that the bonus is only +2 on AC/attack/damage by default if they have at least one ki point, then they can spend a point of ki as part of the same action to double the bonuses. Also, let's move the damn power to an even level, it's messing with my OC tendencies to see it alone at level 7.
10) Agreed about Elbow Smash. Let Head Butt keep the penalty, but only for creature types. A level 20 monk should be allowed to head-butt a titan if they want to. I'd say leave Flying Kick as it is, it's already so awesome.
I'm going to be pretty interested in following this thread, because I'd really like to see what you guys have in mind. I'm looking to play a monk in a coming homegame, so I might be asking my GM for permission to play the final product determined here.
My initial concern, seeing all the proposed changes, is that when they are taken together they produce a class that is too strong on the battlefield. I'm hoping for and end product that can be compared to about the same level as the inquisitor. Something with the ability to be very solid on the battlefield without being the King of the battlefield.
I'd also like to see some work done on the ki powers, so that the monk has a bit more narrative influence. The changeup to Empty Body is a good example.
My only specific comments are in regards to the proposed changes to flying kick and elbow. I like the upgrades, but my concern is that the upgrades instantly make those two the go-to picks. Don't the other blows need to be adjusted to be just as valid a selection in their own area?
Other things I figured I should toss in:
- Remove the words "immobilized or" from the second paragraph of the AC Bonus class ability. Y'know, so it works just like Evasion in that only one thing turns it off. If a monk is glued to the floor, whatever, they should still be able to Neo dodge bullets and magical rays. That's just so appropriate for the feel of the class it surprises me I never see anyone mention it. I'd do the same for rogues and uncanny dodge...but that's for another thread/topic/day.
- It occurred to me the other day...why do Style Strikes require Flurry of Blows? Why can't a monk run up and head-butt someone in the opening round? Wouldn't it be cool if they could run around a bad guy, then Knockback Kick them towards the party? As long as it's limited to once/round (twice at level 15), it shouldn't really break anything, right? It would put the monks new class feature in the same general boat of standard action usefulness as the rogue's new Debilitating Strike, too.
- Honestly, Still Mind has always been really really BORING to me. I realize we need it to stay where it is so monk vows still have something to consume in order to start pumping out ki. However, if that weren't the case and you could just take the vows, I'd like to see Still Mind be a more active class ability. Something like, if they're affected by a mind-affecting spell or effect, they can spend their standard action on their turn to ignore the effect for a round. Something interesting besides "Oh, it's this kind of thing, let me apply this tiny value taht probably won't change anything".
- I believe I've mentioned this before, but TAKE AWAY THE KI POINT REQUIRMENT OF KI STRIKE. Just let it work. Always. Period. It's really ridiculous that in order for the mystical unarmed fighter to actually be able to hurt the big-bad boss dragon when the days adventure is over, they have to be very careful not to expend that last point of ki. It's needless micro-managing that should have gone the way of the dinosaurs when it was first proposed in 2007.
The thing about the monk, Mytically Inclined, is that the flavor and mechanics of the class clearly indicate it's meant to one thing above all: fight. They don't have the skill points or any class bonuses to excel as any kind of skill monkey, like an inquisitor does. They also have no magic, like an inquisitor does. These days, I look for ways to use my inquisitor's Holy Word in battle, then settle for shooting something if it turns out there's no good targets for that kind of spell. The reason for this is that higher level spells can be frighteningly powerful, even if creatures pass their saving throws at times. That pretty much leaves beating things to death with your fists. If the monk gets some sensible upgrades that streamline and enhance their playing experience yet also make them better at fighting in general than a fighter, well, that's a problem with the fighter to be perfectly honest.
On the topic of narrative powers, look into Insightful Wisdom. Basically, 2 ki as an immediate action and a nearby ally can reroll a attack roll or saving throw. It's is in my top 3 favorite ki powers of the unchained monk and I will definitely be taking it on my next such character.
Because I've already taken steps to beef up the regular Monk with third party material the Unchained Monk presents a few problems for me. In some places its too good but in others its drastically weaker. How I decided to handle Rynjin's points in the first post.
1.) Rather than give it a good Will Save I just gave it ki abilities that boost or disregard effects that deal with Will saves. It makes it more of Monk ability than a part of it's chassis.
2.) I allow third party ki feats that drastically up the Monk's ki pool but I had thoughts on just upping the ki pool class feature for all monks but in the end I worked it like ki feats in that they add a bonus ki point for each ki power.
6.) Since most archetypes function awkwardly I just added style and third party ki feats to the list. The ki feats have the added bonus of adding a ki point for each feat along with ki powers and style feats seem like so natural for the class that I don't know why Unchained Monks don't use them by default.
8.) I already baked in Mirror Image as a ki power for Monks so I thought that was enough in terms of defenses.
Criticisms first, then suggestions.
2) Wis + 1/2 level is pretty standard though. And the monk has a TON Of ways to regain or get more ki because existing magic items assumed the monk could only use ki for a very limited number of effects. I don't know, maybe I'm used to it because I played two magi that heavily relied on arcane pool and my artiforged class that relies on a small pool to get a 1 round buff.
That's the main problem. The previous Monk could only use Ki for a very limited number of effects, by default. Qinggong came much later, so it can be forgiven for that.
The new Monk uses Ki for a LOT of stuff. Nearly everything the class can do, in fact. The Magus still has spells to fall back on. The Monk does not. Imagine if you were playing a Magus and needed to spend a point from your Arcane Pool every time you wanted to cast a spell. It starts to look like not enough, right?
6) I totally disagree here. Bypassing prerequisites is a pretty big deal and the monk gets a lot of bonus feats early on. I do agree that the list should have been tweaked a little.
Bypassing prerequisites would be gone in this case. It is largely unneeded anyway since the new Monk has full BaB. The only Feat that's useful on is Spring Attack and maybe Improved Trip (if you don't want to specialize in tripping, since you'd still need Combat Expertise to go further in the chain).
9) I agree that power made me scratch my head and have to reread it. Most of the power comes from the fact it's an immediate, which I feel hobbles the whole ability. I'm not sure if I agree with your house rule. That seems rather strong for an ability that doesn't cost ki. I'm on the fence..
9) While I like the idea, this is a VERY strong rewrite of the power. I'm generally against abilities being so good that they're "must have" from a design standpoint. Maybe make it so that the bonus is only +2 on AC/attack/damage by default if they have at least one ki point, then they can spend a point of ki as part of the same action to double the bonuses. Also, let's move the damn power to an even level, it's messing with my OC tendencies to see it alone at level 7.
Remember that it is permanently locking you out of taking some of the strongest Unarmed Feats in the game. It is essentially Studied Combat with a slight AC boost (fitting since you don't wear armor). Should probably have an Unarmed only restriction though, now I think of it.
6) Yes to all style feats, no to all combat feats. Style feats just SCREAM monkishness, they should be as available to the monk as monk weapons are now. Master of Many Styles can still get around some prereqs and skip the second feat in the chain if they want, so no worries stepping on that archetypes toes either. Combat feats are an immensely diverse bunch and I think don't necessarily fully reflect the feel of the monk class. I WOULD be for expanding the list of monk combat bonus feats, though.
The problem with that is that it again applies an odd limitation on the Feats you can choose, which has a twofold problem:
1.) It arbitrarily restricts the flavor of the class.
2.) It makes it difficult to expand the list in later releases in ways a player can easily find, leading to the same issue of either Feats get released that are super Monk flavored but aren't on the list, or stuff getting added to the list but nobody knowing about them because they're in some random campaign setting book or something (See: Hamtulatsu).
Now, suggestions.
I'm wondering about WIS to damage - maybe as a new Feat?
I'm thinking a Ki Power rather than a Feat. Makes it something wholly unique to the Monk class (and Soulknife, but we'll ignore that).
This encompassing quite a few changes, and its hard to talk specifics when we just have ideas. Could you whip up a PDF?
I've never made a PDF before, but I'm planning to dump a full class re-write (sans table) into a Google Doc soon-ish. Of course, I don't have Word right now either.
I'm in a weird spot where all my word processing and stuff discs are in storage because I moved and then had to buy a new computer, and hadn't expected it to take this long for me to be able to get my stuff back.
2) Frankly, I'd do this AND move the "meditate for 10 minutes to recover one expended ki point" ability into ki pool as well.
10 minutes might be a manageable number, even with buffs up in some cases. Maybe even 1 minute. You can meditate while casters are identifying the magic loot.
I'd need a little more input here. Are everyone's games as time crunched as mine are?
Remove the words "immobilized or" from the second paragraph of the AC Bonus class ability. Y'know, so it works just like Evasion in that only one thing turns it off. If a monk is glued to the floor, whatever, they should still be able to Neo dodge bullets and magical rays. That's just so appropriate for the feel of the class it surprises me I never see anyone mention it. I'd do the same for rogues and uncanny dodge...but that's for another thread/topic/day.
Interesting suggestion. Sounds like a good quality of life thing. I've never actually noticed the Immobilized bit.
It occurred to me the other day...why do Style Strikes require Flurry of Blows? Why can't a monk run up and head-butt someone in the opening round? Wouldn't it be cool if they could run around a bad guy, then Knockback Kick them towards the party? As long as it's limited to once/round (twice at level 15), it shouldn't really break anything, right? It would put the monks new class feature in the same general boat of standard action usefulness as the rogue's new Debilitating Strike, too.
Hm. That does seem odd, yeah.
Honestly, Still Mind has always been really really BORING to me. I realize we need it to stay where it is so monk vows still have something to consume in order to start pumping out ki. However, if that weren't the case and you could just take the vows, I'd like to see Still Mind be a more active class ability. Something like, if they're affected by a mind-affecting spell or effect, they can spend their standard action on their turn to ignore the effect for a round. Something interesting besides "Oh, it's this kind of thing, let me apply this tiny value taht probably won't change anything".
I kind of like Still Mind for what it is. It's kind of a "filler". Some little tidbit you get at 3rd level that's helpful, but not very powerful. Every class needs a few of those, I think.
A +2 vs Enchantment would have been very helpful to me on a lot of characters.
I believe I've mentioned this before, but TAKE AWAY THE KI POINT REQUIRMENT OF KI STRIKE. Just let it work. Always. Period. It's really ridiculous that in order for the mystical unarmed fighter to actually be able to hurt the big-bad boss dragon when the days adventure is over, they have to be very careful not to expend that last point of ki. It's needless micro-managing that should have gone the way of the dinosaurs when it was first proposed in 2007.
Agreed. Brawler's Strike works this way already anyway.
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Hmmm, very interesting stuff.
I, too, have been looking at the Unchained Monk and trying to decide what kind of tweaks I'd impose. Your list is a very good springboard.
1. I am with you 100% on this one. However, I can also agree that all good saves, full BAB and matching d10 HD is too much. So for me, I am keeping their HD at d8. I know that breaks the cardinal BAB to HD ratio but as you said, the Barbarian breaks it too - it doesn't have to be the only class that does.
2. So far, I have no problem with the ki pool size. That may change once I see it in play but for now, I'm fine with it. I do like the idea of a recharge ability though.
3-4. Yeah, I can buy these arguments.
5. I'm afraid I don't see the big deal. 4 ki points vs. 1/day? Is the 'travesty' just part of your 'not enough ki' opinion?
6. The idea seems solid but you're wrong about every other class working this way. The Ranger's combat style is a selection from a few thematic feats. I'm of two minds really - your right that the list is disjointed and without room for growth but at the same time, picking up feats without meeting prereqs is not half bad.
Maybe meet in the middle with "Pick a bonus style feat without meeting the prereqs"? Except for other style feats, so you don't have people picking the final style feat in the chain from the get-go.
7. Eh, again we probably disagree here because of the ki pool thing. Though I do agree the Quinggong stuff should only work with ki in the pool.
8. Ditto here I think, unless there are other reasons?
9. Formless Mastery, whew... what a can of worms eh? I get what they were going for - someone with no styles gaining a surprise upper hand on someone who does, and I like the idea, but your right - it is so situational. It also doesn't work if you make the bonus feats 'style feats only'.
Here is a first blush idea: The 1st lvl bonus feat has to be style feat opener OR this Formless Mastery. From there, the other bonus feats can be more style feats OR combat feats for the 'formless' (or maybe a select list...)
10. I agree with you that head butt needs a change. I don't really like the -8 either especially because head butt uses CMB vs CMD which already includes modifiers for size. Although, I will admit that it means larger creatures have an easier time butting smaller ones which isn't exactly true IRL (how does an Ogre stoop so low to butt a halfing?)
Anyway, my biggest issue with head butt is this: If it works you stagger the opponent. Monks already have Stunning Fist - they already have a means to disrupt a targets action economy - why do they need this slightly different one? It seems redundant. I'm not sure what else would work as well thematically though.
The other thing is, the head butt strike says "the monk must attack with a head butt to use this strike" but head butt is not one of the listed attack forms under flurry of blows. It's a typo I am sure but I think a neat benefit to head butt would be to let it be usable after any type of strike. Hands, feet, elbows, knees, it doesn't matter which you use - you can always try a head butt after. Gives it something unique that makes it worth taking.
Likewise. I'm ok with Elbow Smash being nonlethal. Otherwise it's just another attack for your flurry of blows and thus, a no brainer to take. Now it does carry a -5 penalty and I don't think it needs both. Personally, I would drop the penalty and keep the nonlethal but you may want to go the other way around.
And last, I don't see why flying kick needs a boost with the 10ft minimum. Could you explain your reasoning?
Anyway, just some thoughts. This is good stuff!
I've never made a PDF before, but I'm planning to dump a full class re-write (sans table) into a Google Doc soon-ish. Of course, I don't have Word right now either.
I'm in a weird spot where all my word processing and stuff discs are in storage because I moved and then had to buy a new computer, and hadn't expected it to take this long for me to be able to get my stuff back.
For what its worth I do all of mine on a tablet, with only the internet, a $10 app, and my wits. I don't think its unreasonable to say that they look pretty good, so a decent document with limited means isn't out of your reach.
5. I'm afraid I don't see the big deal. 4 ki points vs. 1/day? Is the 'travesty' just part of your 'not enough ki' opinion?
There is one other BIG change that's easy to overlook.
Quivering Palm now takes a Standard action. So where previously it could be one attack of your full attack, now it takes your whole action. A HUGE step down.
7. Eh, again we probably disagree here because of the ki pool thing. Though I do agree the Quinggong stuff should only work with ki in the pool.
8. Ditto here I think, unless there are other reasons?
7 is because the Ki Pool is tiny. Still pretty small even with level + Wis considering a lot of stuff costs 2-3 Ki per use.
8 is mostly because the Ki Pool is just really...bare. ALL it does now (without buying Ki Powers) is give you an extra attack while Flurrying. I just didn't see the logic in removing 2 abilities every Monk already had just to give them back (even if upgraded) as Ki Powers.
And last, I don't see why flying kick needs a boost with the 10 ft minimum. Could you explain your reasoning?
Just to make it a bit more usable at early levels. A 20 foot Flying Kick is a lot more usable than a 10 foot one, but conversely at later levels a 40 foot flying kick is not much better than a 30 foot one.
For what its worth I do all of mine on a tablet, with only the internet, a $10 app, and my wits. I don't think its unreasonable to say that they look pretty good, so a decent document with limited means isn't out of your reach.I've never made a PDF before, but I'm planning to dump a full class re-write (sans table) into a Google Doc soon-ish. Of course, I don't have Word right now either.
I'm in a weird spot where all my word processing and stuff discs are in storage because I moved and then had to buy a new computer, and hadn't expected it to take this long for me to be able to get my stuff back.
Fair enough. I've just never thought of putting that much effort into what is basically just a collection of houserules I'm considering using.
There is one other BIG change that's easy to overlook.Quivering Palm now takes a Standard action. So where previously it could be one attack of your full attack, now it takes your whole action. A HUGE step down.
You are correct. I did miss that. but the distinction made me think of something:
What if we wrapped QP into Stunning Fist? It is essentially an uber-version of it anyway and monks already get more status effects to inflict as they gain levels.
What if QP was the capstone? Using it would take x amount of Stunning Fist uses - say 5? and you'd still be limited to one in effect at a time but it seems a good fit.
Hm. That's an interesting idea, but I think Quivering Palm just DOES too much. Stunning Fist is already kind of wordy, adding Amnesia, Unconsciousness, or Death to it would just serve to stretch the wording.
A few more uses would be worthwhile though. A total of 3, I'm thinking, just like the Brawler's Knockout punch. Or 1 free use, then 3 Ki to activate thereafter.
Remember that it is permanently locking you out of taking some of the strongest Unarmed Feats in the game. It is essentially Studied Combat with a slight AC boost (fitting since you don't wear armor). Should probably have an Unarmed only restriction though, now I think of it.
True, but in exchange you can use it as a swift action rather than Studied Combat's move action. Also, Studied Combat is a default class ability, something which, as a staple of how the class runs, should probably be better than an optional power like Formless Mastery. Lastly, this would be applying to attack, damage, and AC all at once and for all attacks in that round, quite different from how Studied Combat works. Again, just personal preference speaking here on balancing the power of the thing. Good point about the unarmed bit, I completely missed that.
The problem with that is that it again applies an odd limitation on the Feats you can choose, which has a twofold problem:
1.) It arbitrarily restricts the flavor of the class.
2.) It makes it difficult to expand the list in later releases in ways a player can easily find, leading to the same issue of either Feats get released that are super Monk flavored but aren't on the list, or stuff getting added to the list but nobody knowing about them because they're in some random campaign setting book or something (See: Hamtulatsu).
I don't have much of a problem with point one. The flavor of the class should be somewhat focused, considering how differently a monk will fight compared to a barbarian or arcane duelist bard or a summoner's eidolon, whatever. The second point, though, rings somewhat true with me. While saying all combat feats still seems like a stretch (I don't want to infringe too much on the fighter's territory), I wonder if it'd be possible to use the monk's existing list of bonus feats as a jumping off point to expand its options. For example, any feat they would otherwise qualify for that has unarmed strike as a prereq they can take as one of their bonus feats. I think that would include all the style feats as well.
10 minutes might be a manageable number, even with buffs up in some cases. Maybe even 1 minute. You can meditate while casters are identifying the magic loot.
I'd need a little more input here. Are everyone's games as time crunched as mine are?
This is a tough one. The big factor here is spell buffs vs. excessive resource gain. When minute/level spells are ticking down, no one's going to want to give the monk a half hour just to get back 3 ki points. On the other hand, lowering the time needed to 1 minute just kinda spits in the face of the stamina pool, which is REALLY point hungry. Considering that monks have ki leech as a quinggong power, monk vows, items like the ki preservation ring, and with this change their level as the default ki pool size, I'd still be leaning towards the 10 minute mark for those times when people want to just fall back and take a breather.
As far as the time factor goes, it varies a lot. While I'm not sure if the dungeons in the APs we run would handle our efforts differently if we waited for 5-10 minutes after every few fights, we typically don't bother to find out and just charge through from one zone to the next (after healing up, of course). Of course, others' mileage will vary.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Most of your points in the Ki recharge sound good, though Monk Vows are just...bad. There is not a one that isn't character crippling in some way.
I'm not too concerned with the Stamina Pool's toes getting stepped on either. I don't use Wordcasting as a balance reference when talking about Wizards. That optional rule is no more relevant to this discussion, I think.
1.) Make the Will save follow the Good progression again. The logic behind nerfing it was to discourage dipping, but I personally don't care whether the Monk is a good dip class or not. The good Will save is on theme, and gives the Monk an important mechanical niche as "All good Saves Man" just like Barbarian is "Big Honkin' Hit Dice Man".
I actually agree with nerfing monk saves entirely. The unchained monk, with good will saves would have
D10 hit diceAmong the best will saves in the game
Good fort
Good reflex, plus evasion
Good if not great ac
Best touch ac in game
Solid flat footed ac
Among the best cmd in game
If you want offensive buffs, you need a weakness somewhere
I was actually thinking of something a little different.
Kyrt's idea kinda reminds me of how recovering maneuvers as a Stalker works in Path of War. I'm thinking something like a combination of how Maneuvers regenerate between combats, and Cerberus' suggestion.
Just if you spend 1 minute with no combats, you get Wis mod in Ki back. 10 minutes with no combat gets you all of it back.
And then maybe leave the Ki Pool the same size. Not sure.
True, but in exchange you can use it as a swift action rather than Studied Combat's move action. Also, Studied Combat is a default class ability, something which, as a staple of how the class runs, should probably be better than an optional power like Formless Mastery. Lastly, this would be applying to attack, damage, and AC all at once and for all attacks in that round, quite different from how Studied Combat works. Again, just personal preference speaking here on balancing the power of the thing. Good point about the unarmed bit, I completely missed that.
The AC thing is the only difference as far as Quick Study goes, but maybe it is a bit much. It still locks you out of the Monk's single biggest DPR booster (Pummeling Style), though. I'll think on an alternative that's still good.
Maybe make it 1/2 level to AC, +4 hit/damage. More of a defensive ability.
Or, just scrap it entirely as it stands and replace it with something else thematic. Perhaps a miss chance percentage.
1.) Make the Will save follow the Good progression again. The logic behind nerfing it was to discourage dipping, but I personally don't care whether the Monk is a good dip class or not. The good Will save is on theme, and gives the Monk an important mechanical niche as "All good Saves Man" just like Barbarian is "Big Honkin' Hit Dice Man".I actually agree with nerfing monk saves entirely. The unchained monk, with good will saves would have
D10 hit dice
Among the best will saves in the game
Good fort
Good reflex, plus evasion
Good if not great ac
Best touch ac in game
Solid flat footed ac
Among the best cmd in gameIf you want offensive buffs, you need a weakness somewhere
Tell that to the Paladin.
1.) Make the Will save follow the Good progression again. The logic behind nerfing it was to discourage dipping, but I personally don't care whether the Monk is a good dip class or not. The good Will save is on theme, and gives the Monk an important mechanical niche as "All good Saves Man" just like Barbarian is "Big Honkin' Hit Dice Man".I actually agree with nerfing monk saves entirely. The unchained monk, with good will saves would have
D10 hit dice
Among the best will saves in the game
Good fort
Good reflex, plus evasion
Good if not great ac
Best touch ac in game
Solid flat footed ac
Among the best cmd in gameIf you want offensive buffs, you need a weakness somewhere
Here's the thing though... No one had issues with the monks defenses. All of what you potsed was true before save d10(Which it need to help with mad). Core monk with a good style can be a defense monster, but its offense was baaaad. So it got buffed, buy why nerf the one thing no one complained about in regards to the monk? It'd be like needing the rogue in any way.
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Fun fact! The Unchained Monk is still at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to offensive capability. Why is that? Because the Monk doesn't have any accuracy or damage boosters like other classes get.
I have to wonder if, in an ironic twist, the Monk was being held back by the Brawler? The Monk and Brawler are the two 'unarmed' classes, and, as of Unchained, the two are roughly equal in capability. I have to wonder if the Unchained Monk wasn't 'held back' in order to not overshadow the Brawler who was, originally, being held back in it's design niche by both the Fighter and the Monk.
Anyway, the point is that the other classes (except Brawler) all have some sort of accuracy or damage booster that they can stack on top of anything else. Anything the Monk can take to increase his damage, other classes can take as well, except they also have class abilities that directly increase their combat potential.
It doesn't matter what min-maxing you do to your Monk, your punches will never be as accurate as a Paladin or Barbarian or even a Fighter who uses unarmed combat as well. Because they can take any of the feats or items the Monk can, and then increase their accuracy via class features.
The Monk may have more attacks, but they are less accurate. As we all know, when it comes to dealing damage, it doesn't matter how much damage you deal if you aren't hitting the target.
Welll...sorta. The Monk does have a big advantage over other TWfers, all of his extra attacks are made at his full BaB.
So he's hitting at +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 (another +15 with Elbow Smash) while a TWFing Fighter is hitting something like +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8
Not much consolation, I know. But it sorta kinda half-way closes the gap at least.
If you want offensive buffs, you need a weakness somewhereYou mean like not having spells? That's a pretty massive weakness in Pathfinder.
It wouldn't be if the designers had taken a chance and given us some really strong ki powers... the Barbarian's superior access to rage powers is honestly equitable to the Bloodrager's spellcasting, Primalist or no. A Barbarian has in-class access to flight, pounce, ghost touch, and a whole host of other abilities that remedy the primary weaknesses of a non-casting class. The Monk is every bit as Su as the Barbarian, why didn't the Monk get stuff like this?
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It wouldn't be if the designers had taken a chance and given us some really strong ki powers... the Barbarian's superior access to rage powers is honestly equitable to the Bloodrager's spellcasting, Primalist or no. A Barbarian has in-class access to flight, pounce, ghost touch, and a whole host of other abilities that remedy the primary weaknesses of a non-casting class. The Monk is every bit as Su as the Barbarian, why didn't the Monk get stuff like this?If you want offensive buffs, you need a weakness somewhereYou mean like not having spells? That's a pretty massive weakness in Pathfinder.
This is why I think it's time for new blood to take over development of the Monk.
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Defy Gravity [Su]: As a swift action, you may use your ki to achieve flight through sheer force of will, gaining a fly speed of 60 feet with good maneuverability. You may do this for 1 minute for every Monk level you possess, and must have at least one point in your ki pool to use this power. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. At 11th level, you can use this power to fly as if with overland flight once per day. Used in this way, the ability lasts for up to 1 hour per level, and counts as your total use of this ability for the day. You must be at least 7th level to select this ki power.
This is lifted wholesale from one of the many Oracle revelations that gives you flight; if it's balanced for the Oracle it's balanced for the Monk. Replacing casting with class features is really what the martial classes need.
Man, I forgot that one. I meant to change the Wind Jump power to cost 1 Ki to get a Fly speed equal to base speed for a minute per level instead f the weird thing it is now.
That and change Slow Fall to just be "Feather Fall".
Man, I forgot that one. I meant to change the Wind Jump power to cost 1 Ki to get a Fly speed equal to base speed for a minute per level instead f the weird thing it is now.
That and change Slow Fall to just be "Feather Fall".
Well... yes and no. Mostly because the Monk I played most recently used falling damage to aid in his attacks. Granted, it was part of my playtest for Monk changes which allowed the Monk to spend Ki to reduce damage to himself if he had nothing to brace against (not just walls either!). So he would jump really high (I could reach heights of some 100 ft or so in a single jump!), then spend Ki to reduce the falling damage to himself, but it doesn't mean the falling damage he dealt to enemies he landed on was reduced.
Changing Slow Fall to feather fall means this tactic doesn't work anymore :(
Besides making it a more attractive dipping option, is the Unchained Monk getting full bab as big of a boost as it's cracked up to be? Especially given they could already have pseudo-full bab on flurries? As far as I can tell, the only differences would be in terms of being able to meet bab requirements faster.
Besides making it a more attractive dipping option, is the Unchained Monk getting full bab as big of a boost as it's cracked up to be? Especially given they could already have pseudo-full bab on flurries? As far as I can tell, the only differences would be in terms of being able to meet bab requirements faster.
There's a bunch of little aspects and nuances to it. Meeting pre-reqs faster (feats and prestige classes), attack of opportunity or non-flurry attacks are more accurate (like Spring Attack), CMD got a bump, and I think that's it.
Man, I forgot that one. I meant to change the Wind Jump power to cost 1 Ki to get a Fly speed equal to base speed for a minute per level instead f the weird thing it is now.
That and change Slow Fall to just be "Feather Fall".
Well... yes and no. Mostly because the Monk I played most recently used falling damage to aid in his attacks. Granted, it was part of my playtest for Monk changes which allowed the Monk to spend Ki to reduce damage to himself if he had nothing to brace against (not just walls either!). So he would jump really high (I could reach heights of some 100 ft or so in a single jump!), then spend Ki to reduce the falling damage to himself, but it doesn't mean the falling damage he dealt to enemies he landed on was reduced.
Changing Slow Fall to feather fall means this tactic doesn't work anymore :(
Sorry. That's really corner-case-y and for the majority of players a constant Feather Fall effect is more useful.
Sorry. That's really corner-case-y and for the majority of players a constant Feather Fall effect is more useful.Man, I forgot that one. I meant to change the Wind Jump power to cost 1 Ki to get a Fly speed equal to base speed for a minute per level instead f the weird thing it is now.
That and change Slow Fall to just be "Feather Fall".
Well... yes and no. Mostly because the Monk I played most recently used falling damage to aid in his attacks. Granted, it was part of my playtest for Monk changes which allowed the Monk to spend Ki to reduce damage to himself if he had nothing to brace against (not just walls either!). So he would jump really high (I could reach heights of some 100 ft or so in a single jump!), then spend Ki to reduce the falling damage to himself, but it doesn't mean the falling damage he dealt to enemies he landed on was reduced.
Changing Slow Fall to feather fall means this tactic doesn't work anymore :(
I know, but I'm a selfish snowflake :P