I have a Thug wielding a Sap, with both Enforcer and Hurtful feats, and the Memorable trait.
If I attack and deal nonlethal, I can make an Intimidate check to make the creature shaken for rounds equal to the damage dealt, plus 1 round for being a Thug, plus 50% the number of rounds for Memorable. If this amount is greater than 4, I can make them Frightened instead for 1 round.
Do I get the swift action attack from Hurtful? If I fail to damage, do they stop being Frightened? If I hit them, and make another Enforcer free action Demoralize (assuming >4 rounds), do the rounds of Frightened stack?
Because he's not making the target shaken, which isn't what the feat cares about, it only cares if you make a successful demoralize attempt. So yes you get the attack. No, if you fail to damage they only stop being shaken.
Now I am not on my phone, here are some relevent quotes:
Frightening:
Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Enforcer:
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
Hurtful:
Benefit: When you successfully demoralize an opponent within your melee reach with an Intimidate check, you can make a single melee attack against that creature as a swift action. If your attack fails to damage the target, its shaken condition from being demoralized immediately ends.
Memorable:
Benefit(s): When you modify a character's attitude with the Diplomacy or Intimidate skill, the attitude change lasts 1-1/2 times longer than it otherwise would. Whenever you create a fear or mind-affecting effect that imposes a penalty or bonus with a duration of at least 2 rounds, it lasts 1 additional round after it would normally end.
For example, if you demoralize a foe with an Intimidate check and beat the DC by 5, the victim is shaken for 3 rounds instead of the usual 2 rounds.
There is still the unclear issue with stacking rounds of the frightened condition. This is compounded if I manage to crit with the Enforcer ability, as that makes them Frightened and Shaken.
I don't think Memorable interacts with the demoralize use of Intimidate. It looks a lot more like it's used with the option of adjusting someone's attitude which is done with either diplomacy or intimidate.
Quote:
Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Based on this, Memorable doesn't factor in.
Edit: Wait...it will but only if the duration is longer than two rounds since the developers ruled that using intimidate to demoralize counted as a fear effect (it was unclear until recent, but most people assumed it was).
So you wont get an additional round of Frightened unless you get them to two rounds of frightened in the first place.
So you don't get 50% more rounds, that is for changing attitude only. But you can get an extra round if you cause at least two.
Wait...it will but only if the duration is longer than two rounds since the developers ruled that using intimidate to demoralize counted as a fear effect (it was unclear until recent, but most people assumed it was).
So you wont get an additional round of Frightened unless you get them to two rounds of frightened in the first place.
So you don't get 50% more rounds, that is for changing attitude only. But you can get an extra round if you cause at least two.
I am not sure if we are looking at exactly the same things.
The way I am seeing it, this is the math/series of things going on:
1) Thug attacks, and deals Non-Lethal Damage. Enforcer triggers, allowing the Thug makes an intimidate check. If he succeeds the check, he causes the target to become shaken for rounds equal to the damage dealt.
2) At this point, the Thug ability, Memorable trait, and Hurtful all trigger. (Technically, there is no method for deciding which applies first, but I'll assume I choose whichever is better for me.) If I deal 2 damage, the Thug ability makes it 3 rounds of shaken, then Memorable makes it 4 rounds. This then allows the Thug to make it Frightened, instead of Shaken. Then the Thug takes the swift action to make the Hurtful attack.
3) The Hurtful attack triggers Enforcer again. Again, as above, assuming >2 damage, you have the ability to make them shaken/frightened again.
My question is this: Does this make the target Frightened for 2 rounds, 1 round, or does it make them panicked for 1 round?
I am not asking if memorable will be the thing making them Frighted again.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
This would suggest that making the target Frightened, as in my last post, would extend the duration, not go to panicked.
However, this does beg the question, would Memorable now come into effect, or is their some ruling as to double-dipping.
So, would performing the series of actions listed above produce 2 rounds of frightened, or three because of memorable? Or is memorable a per instance of using demoralize, and not looking at it cumulatively?
Memorable should never trigger twice for a action, and it shouldn't be able to boost the cumulative effect of 2 separate actions.
RAW, Frightening only ever produces 1 round of frightened regardless of how many rounds of shaken >=4 it converts. Only on a crit can Memorable boost frightened in this scenario.
Now I am not on my phone, here are some relevent quotes:
Frightening: Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Enforcer: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
Hurtful: When you successfully demoralize an opponent within your melee reach with an Intimidate check, you can make a single melee attack against that creature as a swift action. If your attack fails to damage the target, its shaken condition from being demoralized immediately ends.
Memorable: When you modify a character's attitude with the Diplomacy or Intimidate skill, the attitude change lasts 1-1/2 times longer than it otherwise would. Whenever you create a fear or mind-affecting effect that imposes a penalty or bonus with a duration of at least 2 rounds, it lasts 1 additional round after it would normally end.
There is still the unclear issue with stacking rounds of the frightened condition. This is compounded if I manage to crit with the Enforcer ability, as that makes them Frightened and Shaken.
This is what I see happens:
1) You attack and hit with non-leathal
2) Enforcer trigges: make free Intimidate check. Assume it works.
3) Frightening, Hurtful, and Memorable trigger. You have frightened for 1 round if a crit plus shaken for damage+1(enforcer)+1?(memorable) rounds. Frightening lets you convert 4+ rounds of shaken into 1 round frightened.
4) Choose to invoke Hurtful: attack. If it misses, shaken goes away, but not frightened. If it hits, go to step 1, but cannot invoke Hurtful since you have used your swift.
1) You attack and hit with non-leathal
2) Enforcer trigges: make free Intimidate check. Assume it works.
3) Frightening, Hurtful, and Memorable trigger. You have frightened for 1 round if a crit plus shaken for damage+1(enforcer)+1?(memorable) rounds. Frightening lets you convert 4+ rounds of shaken into 1 round frightened.
4) Choose to invoke Hurtful: attack. If it misses, shaken goes away, but not frightened. If it hits, go to step 1, but cannot invoke Hurtful since you have used your swift.
The frightened effects overlap and not stack.
I agree with steps 1-3, and I think number 4, but I want to clarify: When you say the effects overlap and do not stack, are you saying that the result would be 1 round of frightened, or 2?
And if I make them frightened for 2 rounds, does it become three? Looking at memorable, it says:
memorable wrote:
Benefit(s): When you modify a character's attitude with the Diplomacy or Intimidate skill, the attitude change lasts 1-1/2 times longer than it otherwise would. Whenever you create a fear or mind-affecting effect that imposes a penalty or bonus with a duration of at least 2 rounds, it lasts 1 additional round after it would normally end.
For example, if you demoralize a foe with an Intimidate check and beat the DC by 5, the victim is shaken for 3 rounds instead of the usual 2 rounds.
If they become frightened for 2 rounds, have I not 'created a fear effect that imposes a penalty with a duration of 2 rounds?' This ability does not begin to describe what entails creating an effect, with respect to duration.
Enforcer crit gives 1 round frightened (starting right now) plus some shaken.
Frightening converts shaken to 1 round frightened (starting right now).
It does not add to the duration of frightened.
This means you never make them frightened for 2 rounds.
Enforcer crit gives 1 round frightened (starting right now) plus some shaken.
Frightening converts shaken to 1 round frightened (starting right now).
It does not add to the duration of frightened.
This means you never make them frightened for 2 rounds.
Thus Memorable cannot give you 3 rounds.
/cevah
This would be the order of actions:
1) Attack with, lets say, a Whip. Deal nonlethal, trigger Enforcer.
2) Make the Demoralize check with Enforcer, causing them to be Frightened, triggering Hurtful.
3) Attack as a Swift Action from Hurtful, using the Whip, deal nonlethal, trigger Enforcer again.
4) Make the Demoralize check with Enforcer, causing them to be Frightened (Which adds to the duration) for a second round.
They are now Frightened, which I have imposed on them, and for a duration of 2 or more rounds. This should trigger Memorable, thus Frightening them for 3 rounds.
Unless there is a reason that Memorable should not trigger in this instance. Which is what I am asking.
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Fail: The opponent is not shaken.
Action Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed.
Your step 4 assumes the second instance of Frightened-1-Round is appended to the first rather than overlapping. Demoralize can only extend shaken, not frightening.
Enforcer states "If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt."
Note it states "as well as" and not "and then". The shaken is at the same time as frightened. Thug converts the shaken to frightened at the same time as they are already frightened. Even if it were "and then", the conversion to frightened converts to frightened now, not later. So they are frightened only one round, not two. Since you don't have two, you don't get three.
I don't see any way to append additional time to frightened.
Also, don't forget the cumulative DC lasts for an hour. So each DC is 5 higher than the last. Nothing mentioned cancels that increase.
I agree with Cevah. The rounds of frightened are from two different sources and thus run concurrently rather than sequentially. After 1 round, the target will no longer be frightened.
Even if they were applied sequentially, they're still two different effects with durations of 1 round each, and thus neither would qualify for Memorable's duration extension.
Your step 4 assumes the second instance of Frightened-1-Round is appended to the first rather than overlapping. Demoralize can only extend shaken, not frightening.
Enforcer states "If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt."
Note it states "as well as" and not "and then". The shaken is at the same time as frightened. Thug converts the shaken to frightened at the same time as they are already frightened. Even if it were "and then", the conversion to frightened converts to frightened now, not later. So they are frightened only one round, not two. Since you don't have two, you don't get three.
I don't see any way to append additional time to frightened.
Also, don't forget the cumulative DC lasts for an hour. So each DC is 5 higher than the last. Nothing mentioned cancels that increase.
/cevah
My issue with your reasoning is two-fold:
1) Demoralize does not ever say that it can "only extend shaken, not frightened". If it did mean(RAI) that, than the limitation related to not creating a stronger fear effect would also be limited to shaken going to frightened, and not frightened to panicked. Which I am fairly certain you agree is not the case.
2) There are no rules/explainations as to what "overlapped" fear effects are. A creature cannot be both shaken and frightened, as far as I can tell, as frightened is a more extreme version of shaken. But because of the wording of the Thug ability, and the fact it says "instead" means the target does not have to be shaken to be made frightened by the ability. Therefore they should interact, which, assuming the limitation imposed by Demoralize, would mean it extends the first round of Frightened to two rounds of Frightened.
Also, I am not only talking about making the target Frightened for 2 rounds using the Crit ability on Enforcer. I am also talking about using Enforcer twice in one turn.
But you are correct about the +5 to the DC for each check. This is, I hope, something I cannot change for balance reasons.
1) Demoralize does not ever say that it can "only extend shaken, not frightened". If it did mean(RAI) that, than the limitation related to not creating a stronger fear effect would also be limited to shaken going to frightened, and not frightened to panicked. Which I am fairly certain you agree is not the case.
Nor does it say that it can extend anything else. Why should it say it only affects shaken, when that is the only effect it can make? It does prohibit the only thing it can make from going to a greater state of fear. It can only do what it sais it can do. If you want to get more, then you need some other rule to enable it. You cannot assume it it can affect frightened when it does not state it can.
Or do you think you can take actions when you are dead? :-)
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
2) There are no rules/explainations as to what "overlapped" fear effects are. A creature cannot be both shaken and frightened, as far as I can tell, as frightened is a more extreme version of shaken. But because of the wording of the Thug ability, and the fact it says "instead" means the target does not have to be shaken to be made frightened by the ability. Therefore they should interact, which, assuming the limitation imposed by Demoralize, would mean it extends the first round of Frightened to two rounds of Frightened.
Special Abilities wrote:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
They not only can, but are defined to be both shaken and frightened.
Read the ability again. The ability makes them shaken. You may instead make them frightened rather than shaken if you would have 4+ rounds of shaken.
Since I have shown demoralize cannot do what you want, you cannot get the extra you are striving for.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Also, I am not only talking about making the target Frightened for 2 rounds using the Crit ability on Enforcer. I am also talking about using Enforcer twice in one turn.
Same deal. The frightened condition overlaps, not extends.
It looks to me like we have got to go to the text for this one. Please bear with me, this might get a little long:
Demoralize wrote:
Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Thug wrote:
Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Frightened wrote:
Characters who are frightened are shaken,
Quote:
Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
These appear to be the relevent quotes.
What you are saying is this, by my understanding:
Demoralize means that it "only extends the duration [of the Shaken condition]; it does not create a stronger fear condition." The part in brackets is an assumed inclusion, not specified in the rules.
My reading of the same text is this:
Demoralize means that it "only extends the duration [of whatever Demoralize does]; it does not create a stronger fear condition."
I cannot say that one is more right than the other. However, there is more.
You have not shown that you cannot attempt to make a Frightened creature Shaken. In fact, the rules on 'Becoming Even More Fearful' work directly opposite this conclusion. Because I am making an already Frightened character (from the earlier attack) Shaken or Frightened again, they should become Panicked. But, because the Demoralize ability specifically prohibits that upgrade of fear, the duration of the Frightened state increases.
Now, this is where things are muddled. If I use Enforcer on a Frightened target, and make them Shaken for 4 rounds, this should extend their Frightened state for 4 rounds. I could also, instead of going for shaken, upgrade the 4 rounds of what would have been shaken to 1 round of Frightened, which would instead of upgrading the existing Frightened to panicked, extened the Frightened by one round.
In this, it is better for me to not use the Thug ability. But that is a separate choice thing.
Related to your continued use of "Overlap". I think the Becoming Even More Fearful text should put that concept to rest.
"Overlapping" fear effects should either a) upgrade the fear effect, or b) due to Demoralize, extend the duration of the effect.
Now, before you say that Demoralize cannot extend the duration of Frightened, lets go back to your inturpretation of Demoralize:
"only extends the duration [of the Shaken condition]; it does not create a stronger fear condition."
Even if this holds true, the Frightened condition should be extended, because, as both you and I have quoted, Frightened is Shaken. And Demoralize's restrictions and rules would apply to both sates, because they are, in fact, the same thing.
I believe that the demoralize quote means that the duration is extended by refreshing it, not by adding to the existing duration. (The same way a caster can cast a buffing spell, then cast it again later to "extend" it.)
The Thug's Frightening ability, on the other hand, explicitly states it extends the duration, but only for the shaken condition.
This is just my reading, though, and I freely admit that your reading is also possible.
It looks to me like we have got to go to the text for this one. Please bear with me, this might get a little long:
assorted quotes wrote:
....text....
These appear to be the relevent quotes.
What you are saying is this, by my understanding:
Demoralize means that it "only extends the duration [of the Shaken condition]; it does not create a stronger fear condition." The part in brackets is an assumed inclusion, not specified in the rules.
My reading of the same text is this:
Demoralize means that it "only extends the duration [of whatever Demoralize does]; it does not create a stronger fear condition."
I cannot say that one is more right than the other. However, there is more.
"Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken .... Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration ...."
To what does the duration refer to? The context implies something in the description. The only thing there, is the shaken condition. Therefore it refers to shaken and only shaken.
To get your reading, you have to make duration apply to something the text does not supply.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
You have not shown that you cannot attempt to make a Frightened creature Shaken. In fact, the rules on 'Becoming Even More Fearful' work directly opposite this conclusion. Because I am making an already Frightened character (from the earlier attack) Shaken or Frightened again, they should become Panicked. But, because the Demoralize ability specifically prohibits that upgrade of fear, the duration of the Frightened state increases.
I have no need to prove what I don't claim. :-)
You, however, have not shown any way other than Demoralize to extend the frightened state. Since Demoralize cannot do that, you don't get it.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Now, this is where things are muddled. If I use Enforcer on a Frightened target, and make them Shaken for 4 rounds, this should extend their Frightened state for 4 rounds. I could also, instead of going for shaken, upgrade the 4 rounds of what would have been shaken to 1 round of Frightened, which would instead of upgrading the existing Frightened to panicked, extened the Frightened by one round.
In this, it is better for me to not use the Thug ability. But that is a separate choice thing.
This requires Demoralize to extend Frightened, thus fails.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Related to your continued use of "Overlap". I think the Becoming Even More Fearful text should put that concept to rest.
"Overlapping" fear effects should either a) upgrade the fear effect, or b) due to Demoralize, extend the duration of the effect.
To add to the duration, you must append duration. You don't get that. You get "set it now". With the same effect twice, it only goes as long as the longest. Since both are a round, you only get a round.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Now, before you say that Demoralize cannot extend the duration of Frightened, lets go back to your inturpretation of Demoralize:
"only extends the duration [of the Shaken condition]; it does not create a stronger fear condition."
Even if this holds true, the Frightened condition should be extended, because, as both you and I have quoted, Frightened is Shaken. And Demoralize's restrictions and rules would apply to both sates, because they are, in fact, the same thing.
Too late. :-)
Frightened =/= Shaken. Frightened is also Shaken. It is a greater state of fear. You can extend the shaken part without affecting the frightened part. That is how the Crit works.
cevah, I have created another thread with more of an FAQ style question. I look forward to continuing this discussion there, as not to gum this one up too much. :-P
