Fighter Archetype that only gets Armour Training 1 still move in Heavy Armour?


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One of my players is playing a Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. Dragoons get Armour Training 1 at Third Level, but do not get Armour Training 2, 3 or 4.

The wording of Armour Training says:

Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. (Emphasis mine).

7th level is when a Fighter gains Armour Training 2.

My question is this: Is this 7th level ability tied to having Armour Training 2, or is it just cogent on having Armour Training and being 7th level? Can a 7th Level Dragoon move at full speed in Heavy Armour?


The 7th level ability is part of Armor Training 2.


On the plus side, once that PC gets mithril heavy armor (as long as he has at least 3 fighter levels) then he can move at full speed.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There is also the sash of the war champion. As long as the fighter has Armor Training 1, they can gain the benefit of Armor Training 2 for 4,000 gp.

The Exchange

Dragonchess Player wrote:
There is also the sash of the war champion. As long as the fighter has Armor Training 1, they can gain the benefit of Armor Training 2 for 4,000 gp.

We could parse the language of the Armor Training ability (and how the fighter was the Core class least well formatted for archetype implementation) for a very long time. I will just say that if I am GMing a campaign the movement in heavy armor is a part of Armor Training 2. A fighter whose archetype gives up Armor Training 2 and above will not get any (armor) benefit from the Sash. YMMV.

Grand Lodge

Go dwarf, man. Fixes all of that!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Belafon wrote:
A fighter whose archetype gives up Armor Training 2 and above will not get any (armor) benefit from the Sash. YMMV.

+1


Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

One of my players is playing a Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. Dragoons get Armour Training 1 at Third Level, but do not get Armour Training 2, 3 or 4.

The wording of Armour Training says:

Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. (Emphasis mine).

7th level is when a Fighter gains Armour Training 2.

My question is this: Is this 7th level ability tied to having Armour Training 2, or is it just cogent on having Armour Training and being 7th level? Can a 7th Level Dragoon move at full speed in Heavy Armour?

That is the description of Armour Training in its entirety. If all of that was granted by Armour Training 1, then Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 would do literally nothing.


tchrman35 wrote:
Go dwarf, man. Fixes all of that!

Most races: 30 foot speed, slowed to 20 in armor.

Dwarrf: 20 foot speed, not slowed in armor.

Fix where?


Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

One of my players is playing a Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. Dragoons get Armour Training 1 at Third Level, but do not get Armour Training 2, 3 or 4.

The wording of Armour Training says:

Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. (Emphasis mine).

7th level is when a Fighter gains Armour Training 2.

My question is this: Is this 7th level ability tied to having Armour Training 2, or is it just cogent on having Armour Training and being 7th level? Can a 7th Level Dragoon move at full speed in Heavy Armour?

RAW, it is not. Since this function unlocks by being a 7th level fighter, and not by acquiring Armor Training 2, a 7th level Fighter with even Armor Training 1 gets the ability to move in Heavy Armor unlocked. If unlocking it was based upon getting the 2nd armor training rank, it should specify the ranks.

But that's only RAW. The RAI is that the first two acquisitions of Armor Training also allow regular movement in medium and heavy armor, respectively, and is evidenced by the factor that this scales at the same levels that one acquires ranks in Armor Training.

With that being said, it's not broken or technically wrong to allow it to function as the RAW interpretation. After all, he's still going to be crippled in the levels that he doesn't have it, and in those cases he has to use either medium armor (and therefore reduce his defensive effectiveness), or be stuck at moving 20 feet (and reduce his mobility).


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

One of my players is playing a Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. Dragoons get Armour Training 1 at Third Level, but do not get Armour Training 2, 3 or 4.

The wording of Armour Training says:

Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. (Emphasis mine).

7th level is when a Fighter gains Armour Training 2.

My question is this: Is this 7th level ability tied to having Armour Training 2, or is it just cogent on having Armour Training and being 7th level? Can a 7th Level Dragoon move at full speed in Heavy Armour?

RAW, it is not. Since this function unlocks by being a 7th level fighter, and not by acquiring Armor Training 2, a 7th level Fighter with even Armor Training 1 gets the ability to move in Heavy Armor unlocked. If unlocking it was based upon getting the 2nd armor training rank, it should specify the ranks.

But that's only RAW. The RAI is that the first two acquisitions of Armor Training also allow regular movement in medium and heavy armor, respectively, and is evidenced by the factor that this scales at the same levels that one acquires ranks in Armor Training.

With that being said, it's not broken or technically wrong to allow it to function as the RAW interpretation. After all, he's still going to be crippled in the levels that he doesn't have it, and in those cases he has to use either medium armor (and therefore reduce his defensive effectiveness), or be stuck at moving 20...

I don't think its RAW though. The ability description is Armour Training, not Armour Training 1.


And I thought the guy in the OP's question was splitting hairs...this right here is splitting atoms. It doesn't matter if you have Armor Training 1 or 3 or whatever, if you have any rank of Armor Training, then you have the class feature, and you are treated as having that class feature for all intents and purposes. It is spelled out in the description what that feature entails. And since the description does not make any specifications as to requiring the 2nd rank of armor training for the additional features to function, I can be a 3rd level Fighter, have Armor Training I, and wear this item, and count as being able to move normally in Heavy Armor.

But since we're playing a quid-pro-quo of "You need to have the ranks in order to get the listed benefits," then the Sash of the War Champion does nothing for Armor Training, even though the item was designed specifically to alter Armor Training to treat the wearer as a higher level Fighter.

I mean, that's hardly the intent of that item, given that the Devs already stated what constitutes possessing class features, as well as subjects that alter them in any manner.


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So you feel that Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 do literally nothing?


You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.


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I believe that this FAQ is relevant.

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Myrmidarch: Do my weapon training and armor training abilities stack if I multiclass into fighter?

Yes.
Armor training requires more explanation as to how they stack:
Fighter armor training 1 (gained at 3rd level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in medium armor. A myrmidarch gains armor training 1 at 8th level, and also gains this ability to overcome the speed reduction of medium armor.
Fighter armor training 2 (gained at 7th level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor. A myrmidarch gains armor training 2 at 14th level, and also gains this ability to overcome the speed reduction of heavy armor.
A multiclassed character with armor training 1 from fighter (3rd level) and armor training 1 from myrmidarch (8th level) gains the ability to overcome the speed reduction of heavy armor (as it is the equivalent of armor training 2, which grants that ability).

This FAQ does what the CRB doesn't. It specifically says that the 7th level ability is part of Armor Training 2.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
So you feel that Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 do literally nothing?

The ranks are shown as representation to determine how much ACP is reduced/MDB is gained. You're not following my argument, so let's try this in another manner:

Let's say I'm a Wizard who takes a Fighter level dip for the Eldritch Knight prestige class. Now, since I'm a 1st level Wizard, I possess the Spells class feature (and with the dip, the Martial Weapon Proficiency) needed to qualify for the Prestige Class. But that doesn't mean I can automatically cast level 9 spells, I need to be a 17th level Wizard to do that (or count as a 17th level Wizard through other features, like the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting feature).

The same issue is posed here. I'm a 3rd level Fighter, I possess the Armor Training class feature. But that doesn't mean I can automatically move normally in Heavy Armor, I need to be a 7th level Fighter to do that (or count as a 7th level Fighter through other means, like the Sash of the War Champion).

**EDIT** Gisher's citation tells us that either condition can be met in order to qualify for moving normally in Heavy Armor: The FAQ says that getting Armor Training 2 from two single-ranked Armor Training features count as such for those purposes, and in this case, need to be met, especially if we don't increase either class levels further than their 1st rank.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
So you feel that Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 do literally nothing?

The ranks are shown as representation to determine how much ACP is reduced/MDB is gained. You're not following my argument, so let's try this in another manner:

Let's say I'm a Wizard who takes a Fighter level dip for the Eldritch Knight prestige class. Now, since I'm a 1st level Wizard, I possess the Spells class feature (and with the dip, the Martial Weapon Proficiency) needed to qualify for the Prestige Class. But that doesn't mean I can automatically cast level 9 spells, I need to be a 17th level Wizard to do that (or count as a 17th level Wizard through other features, like the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting feature).

The same issue is posed here. I'm a 3rd level Fighter, I possess the Armor Training class feature. But that doesn't mean I can automatically move normally in Heavy Armor, I need to be a 7th level Fighter to do that (or count as a 7th level Fighter through other means, like the Sash of the War Champion).

I think he is following. There is no definition for Armor Training 2 other than on the table. So that means it doesn't nothing since they already got everything from armor training 1. Gisher shows us an official source to say that armor training 2 is what give heavy armor movement.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.

That's because it's not listed as armor training 1-4 in the class description. It's listed as an ability that improves at specific FIGHTER levels.

At level 3 you get a reduction in Armor Check Penalties and a +1 increase in Max Dex Bonus. And you move at medium armor at full speed.

At Level 7 you get a further improvement in ACP and Max Dex and you move at heavy armor in full speed. every 4 levels after that ACP and Max Dex continue to improve by 1. There are no further speed improvements as you're already at full speed in heavy armor.

It's the specific fighter level plateaus that improve armor training as specified.


LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.

That's because it's not listed as armor training 1-4 in the class description. It's listed as an ability that improves at specific FIGHTER levels.

At level 3 you get a reduction in Armor Check Penalties and a +1 increase in Max Dex Bonus. And you move at medium armor at full speed.

At Level 7 you get a further improvement in ACP and Max Dex and you move at heavy armor in full speed. every 4 levels after that ACP and Max Dex continue to improve by 1. There are no further speed improvements as you're already at full speed in heavy armor.

It's the specific fighter level plateaus that improve armor training as specified.

So are you agreeing with what I said or disagreeing?

Example of what I said would allow:
A level 7 dragoon fighter can move full speed in full plate and increases his max dex allowed by 2

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.

That's because it's not listed as armor training 1-4 in the class description. It's listed as an ability that improves at specific FIGHTER levels.

At level 3 you get a reduction in Armor Check Penalties and a +1 increase in Max Dex Bonus. And you move at medium armor at full speed.

At Level 7 you get a further improvement in ACP and Max Dex and you move at heavy armor in full speed. every 4 levels after that ACP and Max Dex continue to improve by 1. There are no further speed improvements as you're already at full speed in heavy armor.

It's the specific fighter level plateaus that improve armor training as specified.

So are you agreeing with what I said or disagreeing?

Example of what I said would allow:
A level 7 dragoon fighter can move full speed in full plate and increases his max dex allowed by 2

I have no idea... because I could not understand the way you were originally saying it.


LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.

That's because it's not listed as armor training 1-4 in the class description. It's listed as an ability that improves at specific FIGHTER levels.

At level 3 you get a reduction in Armor Check Penalties and a +1 increase in Max Dex Bonus. And you move at medium armor at full speed.

At Level 7 you get a further improvement in ACP and Max Dex and you move at heavy armor in full speed. every 4 levels after that ACP and Max Dex continue to improve by 1. There are no further speed improvements as you're already at full speed in heavy armor.

It's the specific fighter level plateaus that improve armor training as specified.

So are you agreeing with what I said or disagreeing?

Example of what I said would allow:
A level 7 dragoon fighter can move full speed in full plate and increases his max dex allowed by 2
I have no idea... because I could not understand the way you were originally saying it.

So take my example of the dragoon fighter. Is he legal or illegal?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
You know, when I look at the fighter class I see no description of armor training 2,3 or 4. That means that ANY archetype that gets armor training 1 gets the full ability. And that fighter is trading out non-abilities for it's other perks.

That's because it's not listed as armor training 1-4 in the class description. It's listed as an ability that improves at specific FIGHTER levels.

At level 3 you get a reduction in Armor Check Penalties and a +1 increase in Max Dex Bonus. And you move at medium armor at full speed.

At Level 7 you get a further improvement in ACP and Max Dex and you move at heavy armor in full speed. every 4 levels after that ACP and Max Dex continue to improve by 1. There are no further speed improvements as you're already at full speed in heavy armor.

It's the specific fighter level plateaus that improve armor training as specified.

So are you agreeing with what I said or disagreeing?

Example of what I said would allow:
A level 7 dragoon fighter can move full speed in full plate and increases his max dex allowed by 2
I have no idea... because I could not understand the way you were originally saying it.
So take my example of the dragoon fighter. Is he legal or illegal?

Your Dragoon fighter tops out armor training at the Level 3 point and does not progress it from there. He trades all further progression for stuff. Yes he can move in Heavy Armor... at the 20 foot movement rate. with a -1 reduction in ACP and a +1 to Max Dex allowed.


You need Armor Training 2 in order to have the heavy armor benefit. That was implicit in the rules (although not explicitly stated) and has been reinforced in the FAQ that Gisher was so kind to provide.

The Sash of the War Champion clearly allows a Fighter with Armor Training 1 to have Armor Training 2. It count's your levels 4 higher (ie: 7th, when you would get Armor Training 2).


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Gauss wrote:

You need Armor Training 2 in order to have the heavy armor benefit. That was implicit in the rules (although not explicitly stated) and has been reinforced in the FAQ that Gisher was so kind to provide.

The Sash of the War Champion clearly allows a Fighter with Armor Training 1 to have Armor Training 2. It count's your levels 4 higher (ie: 7th, when you would get Armor Training 2).

It would allow a normal fighter to do such, but the dragoon fighter could never gain that ability as a dragoon, even with the item.


How do you figure? He has the Armor Training ability, it would count as 4 levels higher. 4 levels higher gives him Armor Training 2 as per the wording in the Armor Training ability.

Either Armor Training counts as 4 levels higher for any Fighter (including Dragoons) and gives that Fighter Armor Training 2 or it counts for none of them and it does not give them Armor Training 2 (which clearly does not make sense).

You cannot have it both ways.


So a Dragoon with the sash would gain Armour Training 2 and Spinning Lance?

Quote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
Gisher shows us an official source to say that armor training 2 is what give heavy armor movement.

+1 If you have traded away the Armor Training 2 then you don't get the speed reduction in Heavy Plate.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

So a Dragoon with the sash would gain Armour Training 2 and Spinning Lance?

Quote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.

The Dragoon trades away Armor Training 2 which means at 7th level Fighter the Dragoon doesn't have Armor Training with or without a Sash.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
So you feel that Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 do literally nothing?

The ranks are shown as representation to determine how much ACP is reduced/MDB is gained. You're not following my argument, so let's try this in another manner:

Let's say I'm a Wizard who takes a Fighter level dip for the Eldritch Knight prestige class. Now, since I'm a 1st level Wizard, I possess the Spells class feature (and with the dip, the Martial Weapon Proficiency) needed to qualify for the Prestige Class. But that doesn't mean I can automatically cast level 9 spells, I need to be a 17th level Wizard to do that (or count as a 17th level Wizard through other features, like the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting feature).

The same issue is posed here. I'm a 3rd level Fighter, I possess the Armor Training class feature. But that doesn't mean I can automatically move normally in Heavy Armor, I need to be a 7th level Fighter to do that (or count as a 7th level Fighter through other means, like the Sash of the War Champion).

**EDIT** Gisher's citation tells us that either condition can be met in order to qualify for moving normally in Heavy Armor: The FAQ says that getting Armor Training 2 from two single-ranked Armor Training features count as such for those purposes, and in this case, need to be met, especially if we don't increase either class levels further than their 1st rank.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying a fighter could take an archetype that traded away AT 2, 3, & 4 but retained AT 1 would still gain the full benefits of Armour Training?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

So a Dragoon with the sash would gain Armour Training 2 and Spinning Lance?

Quote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Ultimate Equipment p222 Sash of the War Champion wrote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So lets ask a couple questions:

1) Does he have the Armor Training class feature? Yes
2) Does the magic item make any mention of specific levels of Armor Training as pre-requisite? No

The Dragoon (of a minimum level of 3) gains 4 levels of the Armor Training ability and does not gain Bravery since he does not have it as a class feature.
Specific levels of Armor Training are not required here, just the fact that he has Armor Training.
This means if you have Armor Training 1 (level 3) you now have Armor Training 2 (level 7).

Any Fighter archetype that grants Armor Training 1 may use the Sash of the War Champion to get Armor Training 2. They have Armor Training, the level is not specified in the item.


Gauss wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

So a Dragoon with the sash would gain Armour Training 2 and Spinning Lance?

Quote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Ultimate Equipment p222 Sash of the War Champion wrote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So lets ask a couple questions:

1) Does he have the Armor Training class feature? Yes
2) Does the magic item make any mention of specific levels of Armor Training as pre-requisite? No

The Dragoon (of a minimum level of 3) gains 4 levels of the Armor Training ability and does not gain Bravery since he does not have it as a class feature.
Specific levels of Armor Training are not required here, just the fact that he has Armor Training.
This means if you have Armor Training 1 (level 3) you now have Armor Training 2 (level 7).

Any Fighter archetype that grants Armor Training 1 may use the Sash of the War Champion to get Armor Training 2. They have Armor Training, the level is not specified in the item.

So a third level Dragoon, with a magic item that improves his class feature by four levels would get a greater benefit then if he actually gained four levels?


Gauss wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

So a Dragoon with the sash would gain Armour Training 2 and Spinning Lance?

Quote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Ultimate Equipment p222 Sash of the War Champion wrote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So lets ask a couple questions:

1) Does he have the Armor Training class feature? Yes
2) Does the magic item make any mention of specific levels of Armor Training as pre-requisite? No

The Dragoon (of a minimum level of 3) gains 4 levels of the Armor Training ability and does not gain Bravery since he does not have it as a class feature.
Specific levels of Armor Training are not required here, just the fact that he has Armor Training.
This means if you have Armor Training 1 (level 3) you now have Armor Training 2 (level 7).

Any Fighter archetype that grants Armor Training 1 may use the Sash of the War Champion to get Armor Training 2. They have Armor Training, the level is not specified in the item.

Edit: I can see how some people don't like this. It does seem like a cheap workaround, and it is, but the Dragoon clearly has Armor Training and the Sash increases Armor Training 1 step.

No, the sash lets him treat his level as four higher, not give him the next step. A lv 3 counts as 7, a lv 10 counts as 14. Thus if increasing your levels normally has no effect than the item has no effect.


Durngrun Stonebreaker,

It is a magic item, what is your point? If I am a Fighter 3 and I never level up in Fighter again I can get a Sash and get Armor Training 2.

I don't know why this is so complicated, the Dragoon has Armor Training, the sash advances Armor Training by 4 levels.

Put another way: just because the Dragoon was never going to advance his Armor Training past the basic level doesn't matter, he still has Armor Training and the Sash advances it 4 levels.


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker,

It is a magic item, what is your point? If I am a Fighter 3 and I never level up in Fighter again I can get a Sash and get Armor Training 2.

I don't know why this is so complicated, the Dragoon has Armor Training, the sash advances Armor Training by 4 levels.

Quote:

SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION

Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

What is the normal benefit a Dragoon would gain by being four levels higher?


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker,

It is a magic item, what is your point? If I am a Fighter 3 and I never level up in Fighter again I can get a Sash and get Armor Training 2.

I don't know why this is so complicated, the Dragoon has Armor Training, the sash advances Armor Training by 4 levels.

Put another way: just because the Dragoon was never going to advance his Armor Training past the basic level doesn't matter, he still has Armor Training and the Sash advances it 4 levels.

And a lv7 Dragoon's armor training gives no full movement in heavy armor, thus the sash does nothing for him since it increased his fighter level by four it means he's now counting as a lv7 dragoon in regards to his armor training.


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker,

It is a magic item, what is your point? If I am a Fighter 3 and I never level up in Fighter again I can get a Sash and get Armor Training 2.

I don't know why this is so complicated, the Dragoon has Armor Training, the sash advances Armor Training by 4 levels.

Put another way: just because the Dragoon was never going to advance his Armor Training past the basic level doesn't matter, he still has Armor Training and the Sash advances it 4 levels.

So are you saying that a lv7 dragoon with no sash can move full speed in heavy armor?


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There seems to be some confusion as to what the Armor Training ability states:

CRB p55 wrote:

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter

learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

1) Does the Dragoon have Armor Training? Yes

2) Does the Dragoon advance his Armor Training ability at level 7? No, his Armor Training (by level) is arrested at level 3.
3) Does the magic item Sash of the War Champion advance the Armor Training ability 4 levels? Yes

Result: A (minimum 3) Dragoon with Sash of the War Champion, by the Armor Training ability, counts as having level 7 Armor Training with a 2 pt reduction in ACP, +2 Max Dex, and can move full speed in Heavy Armor. This is what the magic item does.

This is really not difficult, yes he traded out ADVANCEMENT in the ability, he has not lost it. Since he has not lost it if he found alternate means to advance then he can do so.


Gauss wrote:


2) Does the Dragoon advance his Armor Training ability at level 7? No, his Armor Training (by level) is arrested at level 3.

So this is the part you have wrong. The fighter's level for his armor training still increases. He's still a level 7 fighter for his armor training. Nothing stopped him from being a fighter. Thus giving him more fighter levels due to the sash doesn't benefit his armor training. Because it's increasing his fighter level, not some relative effectual fighter level inside armor training.


2) No. It doesn't advance his Armour Training, it treats it as four levels higher.

Again, what is the normal benefit a Dragoon would gain by being four levels higher?


Chess Pwn, what you just stated is irrational. He has fighter levels for Armor Training all the time but he doesn't have Fighter levels for Armor Training? That is irrational.

A Dragoon's Armor Training stopped progressing at level 3. If it continued to progress then he would have Armor Training 2, 3, and 4. By swapping out Armor Training 2, 3, and 4 he has arrested his progress at Armor Training 1. This is basic logic.
The Sash then gives him a 4 level bump pushing him to Armor Training 2.

Armor Training 1 is not a separate class feature from Armor Training 2. They are all part of one class feature called Armor Training. But in the case of the Dragoon he does not advance past AT1.


Gauss wrote:

How do you figure? He has the Armor Training ability, it would count as 4 levels higher. 4 levels higher gives him Armor Training 2 as per the wording in the Armor Training ability.

Either Armor Training counts as 4 levels higher for any Fighter (including Dragoons) and gives that Fighter Armor Training 2 or it counts for none of them and it does not give them Armor Training 2 (which clearly does not make sense).

You cannot have it both ways.

Either Armour Training is one ability gained at third level and Armour Training 2, 3, & 4 do nothing or Armour Training is four abilities with the individual benefits listed under one description. You cannot have it both ways.


Durngrun, your question is the problem, you are thinking of Armor Training 2 as a separate class ability from Armor Training 1. It is not, it is all one class feature called Armor Training.

One where the Dragoon, on his own, never advances past level 3.

In any case, I see the fundamental problem you guys are having, you are treating them as separate class features when it is clearly a single class feature that advances as you gain levels.


Gauss wrote:

Chess Pwn, what you just stated is irrational. He has fighter levels for Armor Training all the time but he doesn't have Fighter levels for Armor Training? That is irrational.

A Dragoon's Armor Training stopped progressing at level 3. If it continued to progress then he would have Armor Training 2, 3, and 4. By swapping out Armor Training 2, 3, and 4 he has arrested his progress at Armor Training 1. This is basic logic.
The Sash then gives him a 4 level bump pushing him to Armor Training 2.

Armor Training 1 is not a separate class feature from Armor Training 2. They are all part of one class feature called Armor Training. But in the case of the Dragoon he does not advance past AT1.

Nothing in armor training stops the fighter level to 3 for it. A level 20 dragoon fighter is a level 20 for his armor training ability. It doesn't get any better than it was at lv3, he traded out his improvements. Thus with the sash he counts as a lv24 dragoon for his armor training. His armor training isn't holding on to it's personal fighter levels that stay at three for the sash to boost.


Durgrun, some class abilities are written as one ability with multiple stages. This is one of them. It is one class ability with several clearly defined advancements. You only need to read the class ability.

Armor Training 2, 3, and 4 are just the names for each advancement of the class ability "Armor Training".


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun, your question is the problem, you are thinking of Armor Training 2 as a separate class ability from Armor Training 1. It is not, it is all one class feature called Armor Training.

One where the Dragoon, on his own, never advances past level 3.

In any case, I see the fundamental problem you guys are having, you are treating them as separate class features when it is clearly a single class feature that advances as you gain levels.

Where are you getting your idea that a Dragoon's armor training has it's own personal three fighter levels that don't increase by taking more fighter levels? Thus allowing the lv 20 dragoon to have a separate three fighter levels that it's armor training is being based off of to be increased by the sash?


In any case, I have said my part, we are arguing in circles.

The Devs have already spoken that if you have a class ability then it can be modified by things like magic items. +4 levels on Armor Training clearly puts it as 4 levels higher in benefit.

You folks can continue to split hairs on it but the rules are really pretty clear here.


Gauss wrote:

In any case, I have said my part, we are arguing in circles.

The Devs have already spoken that if you have a class ability then it can be modified by things like magic items. +4 levels on Armor Training clearly puts it as 4 levels higher in benefit.

You folks can continue to split hairs on it but the rules are really pretty clear here.

Where are you getting your idea that a Dragoon's armor training has it's own personal three fighter levels that don't increase by taking more fighter levels? Thus allowing the lv 20 dragoon to have a separate three fighter levels that it's armor training is being based off of to be increased by the sash?

I don't see where you're coming up with this. A dragoon gets no addition benefit from his armor training when he increases his level by 4. If normal level increasing wont give a benefit than magic level increasing wont either.


Gauss wrote:

In any case, I have said my part, we are arguing in circles.

The Devs have already spoken that if you have a class ability then it can be modified by things like magic items. +4 levels on Armor Training clearly puts it as 4 levels higher in benefit.

You folks can continue to split hairs on it but the rules are really pretty clear here.

The devs have also said, in the previously linked FAQ, that the ability to move normally in heavy armour is granted by Armour Training 2 which is its own ability.


Chess Pwn, I will answer this and then I am done because we are talking in circles.

Because the Dragoon traded out advancement (Armor Training 2+). Thus he does not progress in the ability. There is nothing that backs up your concept of 'advancement without advancement'.


Gauss wrote:

Chess Pwn, I will answer this and then I am done because we are talking in circles.

Because the Dragoon traded out advancement (Armor Training 2+). Thus he does not progress in the ability. There is nothing that backs up your concept of 'advancement without advancement'.

What are you saying? I'm not saying anything about what you said, I can't understand what you're trying to say.


Durngrun Stonebreaker, you are taking that FAQ out of context. The FAQ's context is that Armor Training 2 and the level 7 advancement in the Armor Training ability are the SAME THING.

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