Magnifying Chime and Silence.


Rules Questions


How do they interact?

Silence states that all the creatures within it's effect are immune to sonic-based damage.

Now, magnifying chime has a 10-minute casting time which makes this less abusable but regardless i was wondering.

If the group bard was to cast Magnifying Chime on an Object, then Silence on himself, what would happen?

Option 1.:
Silence completely prevents Magnifying Chime from working, as no sound can pass through its area. Strikes me as a bit weird as a Level 1 Spell preventing sound effectively shuts down a Level 6 Spell trying to make sound.(Compare light/darkness spells, haste/slow and the like...a hard-counter usually needs to be higher level).

In this case, effectively the Bard could then spend several rounds approaching a target, with nobody any wiser, and then, e.g. 3 rounds before the spells run out, chuck the Object like a grenade, for, in case of a Level 20 Bard a sudden "burst" of 18d6 in 90 feet spread followed by 19d6 in 95 feet spread and 20d6 in 100 feet spread, giving no advance warning.
Considering a successfull stealth-check, the 18D6 would be surprising, and during the round with 19d6 many enemies would, depending on layout, not be able to leave the effective area before the 20d6 strikes.
Seems like a handy conflict-opener when the party can decide when and where to engage, especially considering the bard and his party are still immune in their silence-bubble.

or Option 2.:
Silence per it's definition does protect against the sonic damage by magnifying chime, but the radius-increase and damage-increase is a magical effect that transcends the area of silence and is not mitigated by it. So starting from 5th turn, you have 20 feet of silence and then around that, an ever increasing area of increasing sonic damage.
So again, the bard could, if party can choose to engage, cast the magnifying chime, then a silence-spell, and then the party can attack with the frontliners trying to keep enemies just outside the silence-zone(or, alternatively, handing the object(with magnifying chime and silence cast on it) to someone who's initiative is just before the bard so the person can reposition for maximum effect before the spell is triggered.)
Seems this is also powerful in connection with diverse control-spells that can trap the attacked enemy or reinforcements in the spells effect.

Both applications seem like nice mileage to get out of the chime spell, although of course highly situational and not without drawbacks(e.g. party mage needs to bring some silent spells). It's just, which scenario would work out? Or is there a third, other scenario that I didn't catch?

Lantern Lodge

PRD: "All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. "

So option #1. i don't find the difference in spell level to be an issue. What you describe are spells that negate on another. Silence DOES NOT negate Magnifying Chime, it only suppresses it. It's not a hard counter.

So, with 77 rounds of preparation, a 20th level bard can unleash a can of whoop-ass of 18d6, then 19d6, then 20d6? Sonic is good and the area of effect is outstanding (unless you don't want to kill alot of innocent people). But, as a counterpoint, see what a 20th level Wizard or Sorceror or Druid or ___________ (insert class name) can do without ANY preparation.


As a DM, I wouldn't want the headache of that argument, and I'd say that since sound doesn't penetrate the area of a Silence spell, the magnifying chime spell wouldn't work. I'd also let you change what you want to do based on that ruling.

As theory-talk, though, it's interesting. I'd argue that if you smack a 4' gong in an area of silence, the gong would still vibrate, you just can't hear it in an area of silence. The air is still transmitting that vibration to the area outside of the radius of the Silence spell, but b/c of the description of the Silence spell, those vibrations can't be heard or detected by anyone in any way anywhere (even outside the area of Silence). So is the magnifying chime doing sonic damage based strictly on sound, or strictly on the force of the vibrations it's emitting? I dunno, especially since the spell description refers alternately to both "sonic energy" and "sound". Is the sonic energy really potential energy within the area of the Silence spell, and then kinetic energy after it leaves the area of Silence? Or does it not exist since sound does not exist in an area of Silence?

All I know is that Golarion arcane universities graduate wizards, lawyers and engineers at a 1:1:1 ratio


Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD: "All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. "

So option #1. i don't find the difference in spell level to be an issue. What you describe are spells that negate on another. Silence DOES NOT negate Magnifying Chime, it only suppresses it. It's not a hard counter.

So, with 77 rounds of preparation, a 20th level bard can unleash a can of whoop-ass of 18d6, then 19d6, then 20d6? Sonic is good and the area of effect is outstanding (unless you don't want to kill alot of innocent people). But, as a counterpoint, see what a 20th level Wizard or Sorceror or Druid or ___________ (insert class name) can do without ANY preparation.

Aye, but it was not meant as a complaint in terms of "thats awesome stuff and should not be", I'm all for the party bard getting some nice things, even if situational.(so the comparison with other classes and what they can do is not really the point here).

It's just that I am not clear on the increased radius from magnifying chime.
If the radius increase is only dependent on the sound emanating from the central point, then the steady increase in damage over the full area does not make sense.
What i mean is, if the only reason the damage radius increases is that the sound is louder, then damage should be diminishing with range, and something right at the border of the effect should not take 20d6 damage in one field and 0 damage one 5-foot step away.
I know it's "magic", but while a fireball has that clearly defined explosion radius it's kind of hard to imagine sound stopping instantly. And if it does do that, then that radius increase should depend on magic itself too, rather than just sound(which is stopped by silence, while magic is not).

So in that logic I would have 2 overlapping spell auras, with one being larger than the other. Regulary, it would seem that the larger spell is only cancelled in the area of the smaller one, but the spell descriptions do not, imho, make it so clear if the magnifying chime effect is "contained" within an area of silence or, since, as you say, it's not a hard counter, just stops it in the area of its effect while outside it triggers normally.

Basically I try to imagine it like Silence being an Anti-Magic Field and Magnifying Chime being a large-area Spell.
The question is just, does Silence just suppress the the spell effect inside it's own area, or suppress the whole spell while the emanation point is inside. The first interpretation needs silence to completely shut it down which seems powerful for a 1st-level multi-utility spell vs 6th level single-purpose spell. Not impossible mind you, but not clear enough that I am sure on it.

@laarddrym:
Point is, I am the DM in this case and group came to me asking. Both of the scenarios I can see have their applications, but since I was unsure myself I wanted to ask if somebody here can clarify.


Since 'no noise issues from, enters, or passes through the area', if the vibrating object was outside of the silence, the damage would affect the whole area excluding the silence. If the object as inside the silence, there would be no noticeable effect at all, as the noise can't travel from the source to a point outside of the silence.


Sean H wrote:
Since 'no noise issues from, enters, or passes through the area', if the vibrating object was outside of the silence, the damage would affect the whole area excluding the silence. If the object as inside the silence, there would be no noticeable effect at all, as the noise can't travel from the source to a point outside of the silence.

Aye, i understand that. The question was rather: does the noise need to emanate from the object used for magnifying chime, or does the object only generate an expanding magical zone that is filled with sound once per round.

As mentioned above, the "abruptness" with which the sound stops(20d6 one field, 0 damage 5 foot away) would imply to me its an overall magical effect. (As in, if you take in the spell description literally as sound coming out from the object, then it's illogical that you take the same damage in the whole spell area instead of diminishing with range, then absolutely no damage one step away. if that sonic damage done would be purely based on sound originating from one point that should not be how it works.)

But the general consensus seems to be that Silence does trump it, so, i'll go with that, as it's incidentelly the group-preferred variant of handling it anyway, and i suppose it's more coherent to see it as a variant of concealment in regards to bursts, in terms of not affecting things because it cannot pass through.

In that case, though, Chime does seem a bit weak because its so situational. I know this is rules but I'll ask regardless: considering the spin-up-time(before damage and area become worthwhile), would it hurt to houserule a shorter casting time(e.g. one full-round) maybe with something about overlapping areas interfering and not stacking with each other(so it doesn't become a carpet-bomb spell)?


The abrupt edge of the damage is just how most area effects work in Pathfinder, sound or no sound. If you're in the spell area, you take full damage. Outside of it, you take none. It's not terribly realistic, but it makes playing the game much, much easier. I don't know about you, but I don't want to calculate how severely burned people are after a Fireball based on their proximity to the blast.

As far as house rules go, I would be fine reducing Chime to a full-round cast. Heck, I would be fine with a standard action cast. It is a 6th level spell after all, and is competing with the likes of Overwhelming Presence, Waves of Ecstasy and Dirge of Victorious Knights.


Sean H wrote:

The abrupt edge of the damage is just how most area effects work in Pathfinder, sound or no sound. If you're in the spell area, you take full damage. Outside of it, you take none. It's not terribly realistic, but it makes playing the game much, much easier. I don't know about you, but I don't want to calculate how severely burned people are after a Fireball based on their proximity to the blast.

As far as house rules go, I would be fine reducing Chime to a full-round cast. Heck, I would be fine with a standard action cast. It is a 6th level spell after all, and is competing with the likes of Overwhelming Presence, Waves of Ecstasy and Dirge of Victorious Knights.

aye, i believe much of my problem stems from the intangible nature of "sonic". As mentioned, with a fireball, or ice storm, i can see how there's a very limited "area" affected, with no effect spilling over.

With sounds, it just seems weird, as per definition they are originating in a point and then diminishing(perception check to hear something at a distance), and i suppose I cannot properly comprehend how air vibrates utterly violantly with sound next to complete stillness and calm.

Come to think of it, that also means while inside the spell area you have that overwhelming "Gong" once per round, you don't hear anything of it right outside-

As for diminishing areas, there are some precedences, such as with certain walls doing energy damage, or also spells with damage tiers(such as different dice vs undead).
I guess I would have expected something like 30-feet from the object, it's level*d6+level, next 30 feet just the d6, and beyond 60 feet half that much(with save to reduce further).
not really a whole ton of math there, but aye, i can see how it could slow things down in certain groups.

Aye, so house-rule-area it is. Party bard is committed to have everything with any kind of sound/sonic related effects in his arsenal, not for efficiency but as a kind of in-character fetish as part of backstory, going so far as to pick those kinds of spells first over other, more generally effective ones(all the characters(not players) in the group have quirks, so they(players) are very accepting of this, just wanted to say).
So i suppose it's quite fine to throw a bone now and then-but for that, needed to work out how it works in the first place, so thanks to everybody who chimed in ;)


If it's not too late, have him look up the Sound Striker bard archetype.

It's basically all about using bardic performance to deal direct damage to targets.

Not the most optimal, but you already said he was looking for flavor.


bigrig107 wrote:

If it's not too late, have him look up the Sound Striker bard archetype.

It's basically all about using bardic performance to deal direct damage to targets.

Not the most optimal, but you already said he was looking for flavor.

aye, thanks for the mention. he is, indeed, a sound striker ;)

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