Does such a thing as a "bullet proof" vest exist for modern campaigns? If not, any advice on how one might look and cost?
Things like pathfinder in New York City. Our time line essentially.
Maybe an item with the Vest slot that provides a one-time use of DR 10/-. Maybe DR 15/- or DR 20/-.
Maybe an item with the Vest slot that provides a one-time use of DR 10/-. Maybe DR 15/- or DR 20/-.
I like that line of thinking. Going off of that. What about temporary hit-points instead? I wonder what an item of one time temporary hit-points until used would cost.
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I'd treat light concealable modern body armor (e.g. NIJ level II bullet proof vest) as DR10/Piercing , with a 50% chance for the DR to apply. Pathfinder doesn't do Hit Location very well, but modern body armor is all about hit location. Modern body armor will stop most handgun rounds to the covered area (torso), but provides no protection for limb, head, or abdominal/groin hits. Concealable body armor is useless (German military found light armor worse than useless) against high powered rifles and assault rifles. Those high velocity bullets go right through it. A bulletproof vest provides little protection against piercing weapons, but seems to do well against slashing weapons. For example, a hunting arrow goes right through NIJ level 3A body armor.
External (not concealable) military body armor has ceramic plates capable of stopping 7.62x54 rifle rounds and other high-velocity rifle rounds. Some versions have leg and groin protection, and an armored helmet is standard. I'd treat military body armor, as worn by US Army, as DR20/- that always applies.
A kind GM might make concealable body armor ALWAYS provide DR, by assuming that all serious hits are to the torso. This makes this armor far more effective than it really is, but that might be OK.
I personally wear IIIA body armor on a regular basis for certain martial arts activities. It provides much better protection than 'martial arts' padded armor. I've had advanced black belts kick full power into my torso, while I wore a IIIA vest, and it just knocked me back with no damage. In particular, I use body armor to augment martial arts padded armor when I'm the padded attacker for women's self defense classes.
I hope never to be shot, but if I am ever shot in the chest [Youtube: Kickass Movie, Big Daddy shoots Mindy] I hope to be wearing body armor.
Maybe an item with the Vest slot that provides a one-time use of DR 10/-. Maybe DR 15/- or DR 20/-.I like that line of thinking. Going off of that. What about temporary hit-points instead? I wonder what an item of one time temporary hit-points until used would cost.
I thought of temporary hit points, but those would also apply against fire damage, etc., and I'm not sure that's what you are looking for.
I thought of temporary hit points, but those would also apply against fire damage, etc., and I'm not sure that's what you are looking for.
True. So. If I wanted to make DR temporary, since I assume that bullet proof vests become less useful the more bullets they absorb, then perhaps the damage is subtracted from the DR. So say the DR was 10/piercing as suggested by Magda, and an enemy did 8 damage via bullets, it would then have DR 2/piercing left perhaps.
Just a thought. Also, thank you Magda for the very informative response as well. I'll asking my DM how he wants to do it either way, but I find it helpful to bring in a thought out suggestion to make it easier on him. These might do the trick.
Thanks everyone.
I would stick to the normal pathfinder way of armor increasing AC. Perhaps give it a certain amount of AC vs firearms and half that vs other kinds of attacks.
If going with the DR route I'd only subtract half of the damage absorbed from the vest's DR.
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I wouldn't have ANY ablative effect from multiple hits. I'd just keep the armor DR the same, regardless of incoming damage. Plate armor gets damaged when you whack it with a polearm, and we don't track that.
I do think the GM should add a chance each bullet misses the armor and no DR applies. Perhaps 5% or 10% chance to ignore DR, but such hits only do half or quarter damage because they hit an unarmored extremity. This because, if the armor ALWAYS provides full DR, a person in military combat armor could stand still and take a fusillade of pistol hits in complete confidence that no damage would be sustained. Armor does not make being shot at safe, just less risky.
Batman wears a target on his chest because that's where he has the thickest armor ...
I had a friend who was a veteran special forces commander. Tom Clancy purportedly based this character on my friend. He commanded an anti-terrorism tactical assault force. His team normally wore no body armor in the field, for improved mobility. He described one incident, though, where he had to assault a team of terrorists holding hostages. Despite flash-bang grenades, clever assault tactics, and such, the first person in was going to come under point-blank fire from a terrorist with a 9mm submachinegun. 'Timothy' volunteered to go in first and take the hits, but he wore special high-coverage heavy military body armor. He vividly described going through the doorway and getting shot in the chest by multiple 9 mm bullets. He described it as like playing Doom, only in real life. The armor did not ablate appreciably from multiple hits and the shooter failed to score any critical hits. The terrorist was able to unload an entire 9 mm magazine into him before running out of bullets ...
Bulletproof vest having a DR vs bullets is a good idea. However you can still be bruised, which can count as nonlethal damage so converting the damage to nonlethal damage might also be an idea.
Another idea is to increase the AC versus bullets.
Yeah, I know two of these were already mentioned.
Ahem...
[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stoneskin]stoneskin[/url
Seriously, this is basically how Ablative Armor actually works.
Bullet-proof Vest / Slot: Chest / Aura: Minor Abjuration / CL7
Provides DR10/Adamantine. Once it absorbs 70 points of Weapon Damage, it becomes a normal Vest.
Price: 31,500gp
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, stoneskin
Cost: 15,750gp
For ease of play, I would use normal AC as your chance of missing non-vital areas like arms and legs, and just use DR 10/- or 20/- and have it work once or for 50 hp or 100 hp or something like that.
EDIT: I'm just picturing Zoe getting shot by Patience and her goons, having her vest protect her from the bullet, and then never using that bulletproof vest again. Or just dodging bullets better.
There is also the Ablative Barrier spell that you can play with. Though it doesn't specifically fit what happens when you get hit by a bullet, it simulates the non-lethal part and the AC bonus.
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You could flourish a little - say make the cheaper ones used by police forces do 3/ or 6/ resist, but if a bullet hits, the wearer is staggered.
9/ or 12/ for swat armor (the heavy stuff) or less but the wearer isn't staggered. The heavier combat armors (aka batman armor) could to the full DR amount without staggering effects perhaps; but some or any of them could get penetrated by certain rounds.
For example in stead of X/magic as dr, you could rule that assault rifles count as +1 to +3 for penetration purposes, and caseless ammunition weapon ranging from +3 to +5. Basic kevlar vest : dr 5/+1, swat armor dr 7/+2. Demo armor 10/+3. Etc. Bullets can come in hollowpoint (+d6 - d10 damage, -1 armor piercing) or maybe in AP - even normal .22 cals can get sprayed with teflon to give it the +1 armor piercing quality. So for example, a .22 teflon-sprayed bullet might go right through that +1 kevlar vest, but not that +2 swat armor.
You may even simulate different weapon qualities and armor qualities as enchantments: a mp5k might be a +1 smg, while a p90 would be the +3 or +4 gorilla of the SMG world. Better damage, range, penetration.
Likewise, you could give body armor varied enchantments as though they were light medium and heavy armors, instead of damage resistance: Light kevlar would be like ac 2, but a well made vest would be like +3 leather - the modern catch would be that ballistic weaponry can't "touch ac" said armor. Or mix the two: basic kevlar /5 resist, +1 "enchantment" (and therefore +1 ac. Better quality kevlar vest: /7dr, +3 enhancement (3 ac).
Really, sky's the limit here. I did notice in that Technological handbook, a lot of modern/advanced armors had really low max dex values and skill checks. may need to implement all that too.
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gonna have to make a stabilize check on this thread:
Given the fact that I've been interested in this question since I realized that there were technological rules for the Golarian setting, and then you went and had to poke the bear by asking about kevlar and such, I started flexing my imagination a bit, trying to envision what a magical/modern setting might look like. For now, these are the basics of what I've jotted down as guidelines, when using modern combat rules in a pathfinder homebrew game.
This is a lot of text, so it may need a thread of its own, but I also think it was pertinent to the discussion so I included it here.
A) i wanted to clarify and finalize some ideas I've got for you
b) I wanted to further this concept to include the rules for modern firearms I may be using in a later game (been tossing around ideas with a pal o mine, and here's what we've got)
A) Modern Body Armor and Armor Penetration rules (homebrew - also, rules for getting shot by firearms)
Firstly, modern armors are divided into light, medium, and heavy types for the purposes of armor proficiencies and for comparative examples.
Each level of enhancement increases an armor's effective AC by 1 and its level of protection by 1, but not its DR.
Due to the remarkable velocities of modern firearms, taking a hit - even a hit that your armor protects you from - can be traumatic or painful. When calculating damage penetration, each individual bullet is counted separately. The remaining damage determines what secondary effects are applied based on how severe the attack:
When calculating Fort Saves for single shots, bursts and auto-fire, begin with the highest damage, and add +2 to the Fort DC for each additional bullet that did damage during a burst (lethal or nonlethal). There are three separate types of hits that occur when people wearing armor (or not, in which case treat as though DR = 0) are struck by bullets from modern firearms:
1) Negated - if a bullet doesn't penetrate the DR of the armor, no further effects occur.
2) Partial - If a Bullet does damage enough to bypass the DR but not double the DR, you take the remaining damage of the shot as nonlethal damage. In addition, the wearer must make a Fort Save of DC 10 (+1 for each pt of damage above the DR); If failed, the wearer is staggered for one round (not cumulative with other partial penetrations)
3) Penetrated* - If it bypasses the armor or does double the DR rating of the armor (due to critical hits, or high base damage) all damage is lethal as normal. Fort Save vs DC 10 (+1 per pt of damage above the DR): if the save is failed, the victim is staggered for one round, plus one round for every 5 pts by which the save was failed. If failed by 10 or more, the target is also knocked prone.
Additionally, unless otherwise noted by the GM, modern firearms do not use Touch AC in their short range (or any) increment against modern ablative armor (aka, kevlar or better). If GM is using called shot rules/piecemeal armor rules, apply armor location DR separately per usual, as well as whatever other effects may occur - in some such cases the GM may waive the normal "Fort Save vs modern firearms" rules.
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Light Armor:
Basic Kevlar vest: AC 3 (chest), DR 5/+1, max dex +5, skill: -1, Weight: 5 lbs, ASF: -10%, Mv:30ft
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Medium Armor:
Combat Vest: AC 5 (chest only), DR 8/+1, Max Dex: +3, skill: -3, Wt: 15 lbs, ASF:-20%, Mv.25ft
Full Combat armor: AC 6 (chest, legs, arms, helmet), DR 8/+1, Max Dex +2, skill: -4, Wt: 25 lbs, ASF:-30%, Mv:20ft
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Heavy Armor: (military grade or demolition kit)
*minumum "enchant" of +1, reflected in the statistics. (the cost of the materials and technical knowledge to make said armor is prohibitive to creating "cheap" variants)
Demolition Kit: AC 9 (full body, with faceplate/bp plexiglass visors),
DR 10/+2, Max Dex: +1, skill: -7, wt: 50 lbs, ASF: -40%, MV:20 (x3 runspeed) **special: Demolition armor is made to withstand explosive blasts: Its DR also applies to Fire and Force damage (calculated separately before totaling the damage of explosives that do multiple types of damage). Additionally, a full visor - instead of the translucent variant - allows for a +2 bonus to save vs. Blinding effects such as flash-bangs.
Heavy Combat Armor (aka batman armor, little giggle): AC 8 (full body, open faced), DR 12/+3, Max Dex: +3, Skill: -3, wt: 35 lbs. ASF: -30% MV: 20 ***special: While requiring heavy armor proficiency (modern), the light-weight and well-balanced cut of this armor allows for enhanced felixbility - as such, the armor functions as medium armor for all other purposes. Some models provide various enhancements, such as spiked gauntlets, elemental resistances, and concealed weapon slots.
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B) Weapons: While certain generalized statistics apply here to modern firearms, different make/models and ammunition can enhance or penalize its penetrating power. The tricky part of these rules comes in how you choose to apply automatic weapon fire (for my opinions/homerules, see below, under the weapon examples).
Modern firearms are much more reliable than medieval ones: Misfire scores are followed by a number in parentheses, which is the number of misfires such a weapon requires before gaining the "broken" condition, and likewise the number of times a broken weapon can misfire before exploding/being destroyed. In most cases, this will not be followed by an explosive radius: this indicates that the misfire will only affect the user. GMs may opt to allow well-made firearms to increase this misfire number (+1 per "enhancement")
Semi-automatic and Automatic weapons reduce the iterative attack penalties of secondary attacks by 2, and tertiary attacks by 4 (and so forth) unless otherwise noted. Those with the Rapid Fire feat may instead take the normal iterative penalties, but fire two bullets for each iterative attack at a -2 penalty. (roll separately for each attack). Burst/auto fire weapons may be fired in this same manner, with the additional burst/auto fire penalty (atop the -2 for rapid firing).
Finally, note that in some cases there are significantly differing statistics and rules than that of the normal "advanced firearms" rules - the reasoning behind this is that most modern rifle rounds are much more devastating, often tumbling in flight adn/or ricocheting or shattering upon impact, thereby ensuring grievous injuries. Unless your PC is named Rambo or Chuck Norris, in which case your AC is infinity anyway.
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Pistols/SMGs: (medium sized, generic)
.22 snub-nose revolver: dmg: d6, crit: x4, range:10, Misfire: 1(8), Capacity: 6 (revolver)
9mm semi-automatic: dmg: d6, Crit: x4, range:20, Misfire: 1(6),
Cap: 15, Special: S.A. (semi-auto)
9mm machine pistol/smg: Dmg d6, Crit x4, Range:20, misfire: 1(4),
Cap: 15/30. Burst(3)-1, Auto:(5)-2, FA (dc+3, 15b/5 or 30b/10)
.40 cal SMG (generic) - QP (Quality/Penetration +1), Dmg d8, crit 19/x3, range:30, misfire 1(5), Cap: 30/60(mini-drum), Burst (3)-1, Auto: (6)-2, FA (DC+6 30b/10 or 60b/20)
P90 (caseless 5.7x28mm) - QP: +3, Dmg d8, Crit 19/x3, range:50, misfire: 1(8), Cap 50, Burst (3)-0, Auto: (5) -1, FA (DC+10, 50b/16)
Special: Because of its lightweight bullpup design and relatively low recoil, this smg can be used in one hand. Burst/auto penalties increase by 1 and 2, respectively, when used this way. Full auto DC is decreased to +5)
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Rifles:
Bolt action .30 cal hunting rifle: QP: +1, dmg d12, Crit 19/x3, Range:100, Misfire: 1(8), Cap: 6/1 (1 before resetting bolt, 6 in the clip), Special: When mounted with a scope, users may perform sneak attacks at up to whatever range the scope has been adjusted to, normal range penalties apply.
AK-47: QP: +1, dmg d12, Crit x4, Range:80, Misfire 1(5), Cap 30, Burst(3)-2, Auto(5)-4, FA (DC+5 30b/10)
H&K g11 (4.7x33mm caseless): QP +3, dmg d12, crit X3, Range:100/50, Misfire: 1(10), Burst(3)-0, Auto(5)-2, FA (DC+8, 45/15) Special: G11s don't fire in single-shot mode: In actuality, every pull of the trigger rattles off a full 3 round burst so quickly that the third bullet leaves the barrel before the recoil of the first is felt. Treat all "single shots" as bursts. The range increment decreases by half when the gun is fired on Auto or full auto mode, as it's design decreases bullet velocity by almost half when not firing in burst mode.
(special modern firearms rules, and other notes)
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1) burst mode: generally, 2 or 3 bullets per burst, noted as such: Burst(3) -1. When firing on burst mode, a single roll to hit is made: Apply the burst penalty and roll attack as normal. For every 5 points by which this surpasses the target's AC, another bullet lands, up to the normal burst maximum.
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2) Auto fire* (manual) The shooter fires in longer but controlled bursts: Instead of area effect, treat this as Burst fire: Take the Auto Fire penalty on accuracy, but for every 3 points by which you hit a target, another bullet strikes, up to the maximum number listed. (the increased overall fire is intended to simulate corrective fire)
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3) Full Auto*: Generally denoted as such: FA (DC+5 - 30b/10**) where the first number indicates the Reflex DC bonus, the second indicates how many bullets are fired, usually a full clip, (unless otherwise noted), and the third indicates the maximum number of bullets that can hit targets in the area of effect. Range increment penalties are doubled for Fully Auto fire, applied to the DC of the reflex save.
When fired in full auto mode, A weapon is fired as a full round action (spray, counts as an AOE, with a Reflex DC equal to the [user's attack score total + weapon DC] rating of the weapon. Targets in the area of effect (designated as a 5 foot square, or up to a number of adjacent squares equal to 1/2 of the shooter's BAB (in a line, burst or combination thereof), decided by the shooter, and any squares in a line from the weapon to the target area are likewise affected (and beyond, for any bullets that miss, up to 1 range category further). For every 5 points the reflex save is failed, targets in the area of effect are hit by another bullet.
However, the Reflex DC of this area effect is decreased by 5 for every additional square the shooter designated as a targeted area (example: shooter designates 3 squares as the target of his spraying: the reflex DC is decreased by 15 - i.e, he's shooting it all over the place, Rambo style, and unlikely to hit unless very skilled).
*getting shot at by full auto fire is frightening for any intelligent combatant, and may cause pinning (see below)
**As explained above (and noted as 30b/10 in the weapon description) A full auto spray cannot land more than 1/3 of its bullets on targets in the area, regardless of how badly said targets fail their saves. After saves are made, each bullet that struck is "assigned" amongst the targets equally, starting with the target who failed their reflexes by the largest amount.
Characters with the Automatic Firearm Training feat may perform Full Auto fire as a standard action, instead of as a full-round action, and their auto-fire results are limited to 1/2 of the bullets fired, instead of 1/3.
The GM may rule that either a natural save roll of 1 or a reflex failed by 10 or greater indicates that a single bullet has critically hit: confirm as though firing the bullet on autofire (with all such penalties). Example: Bob gets shot at by an AK-47 (who targets only Bob's square), and makes a reflex save vs the attacker's Full Auto DC of 18. Bob rolls a reflex save of 1 (totaling 7, including his save bonus). He would take 3 hits (at d12 damage). In addition to getting hit, one of the hits may be a critical: Assailant rolls a critical confirmation roll as though firing a normal, single bullet, applying the base range penalty for full auto fire.
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4) pinning fire: If a target/s is in cover (and intelligent) and was/is being fired at by Auto Fire or Full Auto Fire within the last or current round, the shooter may make a free intimidate check against any target attempting to fire from cover or move from cover. If failed, targets count as shaken until the fire stops or until they can safely move to another position.
If a target is in the open when fired at by auto fire, and within base movement distance of cover, the shooter may make an intimidate roll: If the target fails, they *must* move to cover in their next turn if they are able, and count as shaken in the same way noted previously (I.E., move to a new location safely, or there's a break in the auto-fire.)
If the target's in the open, and NOT within range of cover, the GM may force the target to fall to the ground if a successful intimidate check is made. They may continue to belly-crawl until they get to cover (or can return fire and pin the shooters down).
Targets that are well-armored or otherwise impervious to much of the damage (wearing medium or heavy ablative armor, for example) may not be intimidated by pinning fire. The GM may rule that if the armored target has been hit by one or more of said bullets and received no damage, they may elect to ignore the pinning fire rules (until they are actually damaged in any way by such fire, at which time they may get pinned as normal).
Anyway, apologies in advance for the ginormous post: Wanted to comment on this for feedback etc.
So, My first qualm is in adding the fortsaves for getting shot. I mean, people get shot by arrows in pathfinder, and they don't just fall prone. For the sake of the narrative, we just carry on.
However, given our somewhat more intimate knowledge of firearms in the modern age (thank you, American television/cinema) we have rough idea of how gun battles should *look* and how they are paced, as compared to medieval fantasy combats (where people are casually back-flipping over walls and past enemies like legolas, or smashing through hordes like Juggernaut from Xmen - and we're all fine with it, because let's face it, it's easier to imagine that way)
Anyway, it's the mechanic of adding in more rolls I object to, so I'm already debating on whether to use the fortsave/stagger rules for getting shot, even though I think it's a lost opportunity to apply a tactical element to the game (so people don't just stand out in the open getting riddled like Al Pacino, while rattling off bullets and snarling obcenities)
On that same note, I like the tactical use of pinning rules, but - again - more rolls = more bog.
Thoughts?
Ok. So update. My DM decided to go a different way with it. Basically making it so that different bullet proof vests only gave protection from ballistic weapons. That's all pretty much.